Posted on 05/08/2006 9:13:33 AM PDT by Charles Henrickson
See, I have the same problem with "always". As long as you can feel that hate for him, you may be right. But a time will come, when he is being viewed from a far away and long ago perspective, as we now view Babe Ruth, and he possibly will be judged for his talent. Stranger things can and have happened. Being consumed with being sure he will ALWAYS be the fool that cheated seems a bit of a waste of energy. But, it's your energy, and you're welcome to spend it as you please. Don't need my permission or agreement for that.
For Bonds, we'll call it an "asteroid."
Are you kidding me? You shot all of your credibility down with this statement. That is like saying O.J. didn't commit murder. ALL of the evidence points to Bonds being a juicer.
Was he a star before the steroids? Yes. However, that doesn't change the fact that he's nothing but a cheater now.
It really doesn't help your argument when you shown your disdain of the "left coast" or resort to name calling about garbage and such. Never said "I love him" but if it enhances your rant, go for it. I prefer discussion to rants. Guess I can assume when you state "Period" you've made another pronouncement?
I think Drysdale or Gibson would have buzzed him and knocked him on his pincushion ass a few times.
I don't hate Bonds. You're trying to trivialize criticism of what he did by making that criticism sound petty and personal.
I hate what he did to the sport. Him and McGwire and Sosa and the rest.
And it's not a question of being consumed with anything either: again, you're trying to villainize his critics. Stating it will always follow him is just fact. Maybe you can't accept that yet, but it doesn't make it any less so.
You forgot to say "and his mother dresses him funny!"
Speaking of pitchers, should all who were caught throwing spitballs, or using vaseline or sandpaper be removed from the hall of fame, or just get an asterick? How about anyone suspected of or caught using a corked bat. Oh, and while we're at it, let's take the protective pieces on the batting helmet away so the guys can quit being such wusses and lean over the plate taking their chance at getting beaned like a man. Give me a break.
Ruth will always be recognized as the greatest of his era, and one who rebuilt baseball after the Black Sox scandal.
Comparing statistics from one era to another is tricky, and really doesn't conclude anything. There are a few players that seem to exemplify great baseball players, Ruth was certainly one; in St Louis, we have Stan "The Man" Musial, who remains a fan favorite. I can hardly imagine Bonds generating the same reverence in San Francisco that Musial has here. Nor is any baseball commissioner likely to descibe Bonds as "baseball's perfect warrior", as Ford Frick described The Man.
And so the Red Sox have Ted Williams; the Pirates have Clemente; and the Dodgers' Sandy Koufax. Winners all. And San Francisco will always have Montana.
Isn't that Gary US Bonds?
But what about the juiced up pitchers who threw to him over the last 15 years? Should they all have their records tossed as well? Roids have been around a long time in the game and the people who took them would create a list as long as immigration threads here on FR.
I agree. People saying he should be thrown out of baseball or somehow prevented from breaking Ruth's record miss a very important point: it doesn't matter, because Balco Barry Bonds' name is mud, the records are tainted, the history set in stone.
And it's not "another" pronouncement, it's just a pronouncement. Perhaps you have me confused with another poster.
Much of the criticism IS petty and personal. If you don't think so just look over these threads. I feel having constructive discussion is a good thing, but how do you have that when people here and elsewhere fall back on the name calling.
Hating what has been done to the game is a very reasonable reaction. I don't like it either. But an argument can be made as to whether Bud Selig and others in baseball management are even more to blame that those who used enhancers. When an unclear message is being sent, it's dishonest later to act stunned that players took advantage of loopholes. Did you see the panel with Mays, Morgan, Gibson and several others who said if enhancers had been available in their time they may have used them too? Many players have taken advantage of anything available at their time to give them a leg up. Uppers were widely used. Arguments can be made that those using them should have astericks. Athletes are competitive by nature. Does taking a shortcut make you a hero? No, but how many have taken shortcuts and not been caught.
I just see that all the ire people feel about the situation is being projected on Bonds. I'm not so sure that he should be the whipping boy for all that's wrong in baseball. He's an easy target, but is he necessarily the right target?
Some critics are fairly villainized. Not everyone is honestly being a critic "for the good of the game." I just think it's a bit early for "facts" on how Bonds should be perceived by history. You're right, I'm not ready to accept your version of things as FACT. Mainly because I think the facts are not clear as to how to handle the situation. I don't think that means my thoughts are any less valid than what you tout as facts.
* snort *
1) Bonds is black. There's a kernel of deep-seated racism under a lot of that faux indignation.
2) Bonds has never played nice with the media, so he has virtually no defenders...even now, when he is not nearly the jerk he was in his early years.
"I'll let my argument stand on its own - complete with my value judgements. There's really nothing in it for me to win an argument with you."
Agreed, and I feel the same about my discussion. I don't need to win arguments either.....I don't argue I discuss.
May have confused you with another poster regarding your pronouncement. Sorry. Not big on anyone making pronouncements.
Not a good argument, unless Selig was operating the syringe injecting the bovine growth hormone. Bonds can't blame it on anyone but himself.
And if he's the whipping boy, it's because he's the one still in the sport; he's the one climbing the record boards on the backs of chemists and veterinarians.
...but how do you have that when people here and elsewhere fall back on the name calling.
All I ask is "are the names accurate?"
If you're going to call anyone a racist here, have the courage to do it directly.
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