The Conservative Case for Duncan Hunter

TownHall.com ^ | 2/2/07 | John Hawkins

[taxed2death]

I'm stating that in certain cases it is indeed a good thing. One size fits all, never does....

Call it a temporary "tax" or what ever you want too. Add up how many jobs around the world are attributed to the Harley Davidson Brand name, ok?
Then cry me a river because Reagan slapped a temp tax on Jap bikes above 750cc.

The best part is the japs never changed their DISPLACEMENT of the engines...they changed the decals...

case in point
Yamaha FZ 750 was changed to Yamaha FZ 700

Search the microfische in a parts dept and you'll see the same size piston (same bore and stroke year to year). They pulled a fast one on us... and in the long run.....

NO ONE WAS HURT

and a company (Brand Name) that now employs tens of thousands of workers WORLDWIDE was saved.

That's just absolutely HORRIBLE isn't it?

[zbigreddogz]

Alright, so you're fine with politicians who raise taxes as long as they did it for a good reason?

[taxed2death]

If it is a "PRO-US" position...that BENEFITS a US company and HELPS American workers, yes!

Why the hell not?

Reagan rescinded it when it was clear that HD could stand on it's own two feet.

This is the difference between "free traders"...and "fair traders".

In the long term it did not hurt the American consumer, any of the Jap bike manufacturers or anyone else I can think of.... except those for "free trade" because it broke the mold and shattered their flawed "formula" and silly mantra.

So be it.

[Jim W N]

...slowing down the flow of jap bikes (750cc+) flowing into the US ...enabled Willie G Davidson the time and opportunity to buy back controlling shares of HD.

Still don't see how blocking jap bikes helped Davidson to buy back HD.

Look I'm glad for the legendary turnaround of HD with which you're apparently personally involved. But look at it another way. If HD had always been protected from the Japanese by tariffs, an inferior bike company would not have had the competitive environment needed to motivate this kind of turnaround. Again, the consumer won when free-market competition forced change.

So to go back to the original reference to Milton Friedman, fair markets create neither equality nor freedom, whereas free markets create a great deal of both. Also, free markets create wealth. One of the best, latest examples is Peru which moved from a closed market to an open, free-market economy a few decades ago. Whereas it used to be a fairly backward, poor country, Peru, in a relatively short amount of time, found itself with one of the best standards of living of any South American country.

[taxed2death]

By putting a tariff on large displacement jap bikes it slowed their sales, shifted a few consumers BACK towards buying HD...thus putting a bit more money into the AMF owned company. This (so it was explained to me) bought time for Willie G to scrounge up the funds needed to buy out a controlling interest in the company.

I have absolutely no personal stake in HD. I do not sell HD or any of their products.

"If HD had always been protected from the Japanese by tariffs, an inferior bike company would not have had the competitive environment needed to motivate this kind of turnaround. Again, the consumer won when free-market competition forced change."

There you go again...LOL


All or nothing, hugh?

Who says HD SHOULD have been permanently protected? Not me!

This is "free traders" biggest flaw...if it doesn't fit into their "all or nothing Friedman formula"...they sit around and scratch their heads...

I say take each case as it comes along. Things aren't always black and white... there's a hell of a lot of gray area in there too.

Hat's off to Peru! Fantastic, I'm glad to hear it... but I believe we (US) should use tariffs as a negotiating tool. if there is a case where a distinctly American Icon could be saved... why not?

A little bit of arm twisting never killed anyone. I'm not saying to blast a tariff on everything that comes ashore... that's just idiotic... but hey...
use 'em as leverage, everyone else does!

[zbigreddogz]

I didn't ask about trade, I asked about taxes. Are tax increases good if they are for 'good reasons'?

The "I'm not a protectionist, I'm for fair trade" is the same sort of logic that has people say, "I'm not pro-abortion, I'm pro-choice."

[taxed2death]

Let's flip the coin here... you believe there is no intrinsic value to keep a Motorola or a Texas Instrument type company in American hands?


Would you rather see the tens of thousands of workers across the world who produce HD products be unemployed, just to "prove a point" that tariffs suck and "free trade" reigns superior in ALL cases?

That to me FRiend, is a strange outlook. But to each his own, it's still a (relatively) free country.

[taxed2death]

A tariff is a tax.

Your analogy is a bad one. You logic is flawed. Abortion is an extreme life or death position. Trade is not. Trade is like international game of poker.
Tariffs are a tool and shouldn't be discarded just because someone doesn't have the balls to stand up for Americans.

Can you find me one single person who was hurt by the tariff that Reagan imposed?

Just one?

[zbigreddogz]

Yes, I'm aware. So you are OK with pols who raise taxes as long as it's for a 'good reason' that 'helps U.S. Businesses'.

That's your right, but I suggest you read Adam Smith. Particularly the parts dealing with mercantilism.

Finally, yes, abortion is different, you are either deliberately or unthinkingly missing my point. My point has nothing to do with abortion, and everything to do with meaningless labels. There is no substantive difference between being pro-abortion and pro-choice. There is also no substantive difference between being for protectionism and being for 'fair trade'. One is just a code word for the other.

[taxed2death]

OK, I'm for a limited degree of protectionism when it benefits American companies and Americans on a case by case basis. This would be a logical way to approach trade.

___________________________________________________________

Until the condition in the US is LOWERED to the same level as any shit-hole turd world country we should continue to use tariffs as a tool on a case to case basis. When your grandchildren get their choice job at age 10 hobbling around in feces filled streets weaving carpets...then and only then will we be on an even playing field with the rest of the world. How's that for pointless rhetoric?
Not bad,hugh?

[zbigreddogz]

Yah, it's not bad. It's not true, and no respectable economist believes it, but it's good pointless rhetoric.

[taxed2death]

You're right.

I'm wrong.

Me and you should start a petition to have HD liquidated, fire everyone, track down the few people in the late 70's who might have paid a bit more for their Jap bikes and give them the money.

That would prove that you were right and make everything better.

[Jim W N]

Well, all I can say is that our wonderful country was not founded on the sympathies of government protecting us from the realities of life. People literally die to get here and become a citizen of a country that allows them to be free from government. They would rather die than not be free. They don't risk their lives to get here so they can have more of the same government intervention they are fleeing from. Some of the greatest patriots of America are our LEGAL immigrants who literally kiss the ground thanking God for their freedom. We who have grown up here often take these things for granted. You don't think freedom comes with a price? It most certainly does. Freedom has no guaranteed outcome - only the guarantee that government isn't going to stop you from your dreams.

We're living in times when people don't want to pay a price for being free. Government is always waiting in the wings to take over anything and everything it possibly can. We must deal with the failures of our businesses and companies to successfully compete in the marketplace. If we don't, we lose the sharp competitive edge needed to sustain true growth and independence. Otherwise, we're like little babies whining when we lose and wanting Big Brother Government to bail us out every time things don't go our way. And when that happens (as it does more and more), it's the beginning of the end of liberty. Our free way of life may not be perfect, not always "fair", but its better than anything else that's out there.

[taxed2death]

"Well, all I can say is that our wonderful country was not founded on the sympathies of government protecting us from the realities of life."

I kinda stopped reading after that.

How was government "paid for" before income tax?

Answer:

Tariffs.

They worked just fine before big government came along and became robber/ baron.

No one forces anyone to buy a product. You have a choice.

Government now forces us to pay income taxes. You have no choice.

Which is a bigger intrusion in your life?

[Jim W N]

As I said in my original post, "cost-of-doing-business" tariffs or levies or charges are valid.

However, the greatest economic problem we face is big government (which, by the way, is currently engaged in mostly unconstitutional activities). It is a prosperity killer. Whether you pay for it with income taxes or tariffs (which is a form of tax) is just a matter of whether we get run over by a train or a bus.

I hate income tax too. I think legitimate constitutional government could be financed probably by legitimate sales taxes and tariffs (a form of sales tax).

[Jim W N]

As I said in my original post, "cost-of-doing-business" tariffs or levies or charges are valid.

However, the greatest economic problem we face is big government (which, by the way, is currently engaged in mostly unconstitutional activities). It is a prosperity killer. Whether you pay for it with income taxes or tariffs (which is a form of tax) is just a matter of whether we get run over by a train or a bus.

I hate income tax too. I think legitimate constitutional government could be financed probably by legitimate sales taxes and tariffs (a form of sales tax).