China Struggles To Build An F-22

Startegy Page ^ | November 17, 2009

[myknowledge]

The Chinese Air Force has announced that it has a F-22 type aircraft ready to make its first flight within a year. The Chinese believe this aircraft will enter service within ten years. U.S. intelligence believes the Chinese are nowhere near this kind of capability. But given the quantity and quality of data Chinese hackers have been stealing in the past five years, it's possible that they have much of the American technology that makes the F-22 and F-35 possible. Some believe that the Chinese also have a F-35 type design in the works as well.

American intel analysts believe that Chinese aviation technology (both design and manufacturing) is not yet capable of producing F-22/F-35 class aircraft. Given the experience with the first two Chinese designed and manufactured jet fighters (J-10 and JF-17), there is much doubt that China is capable of making the leap to F-22 class fighters. The big bottleneck is jet engine technology.

For two decades now, China has been developing the manufacturing technology for aircraft engines, the key component of any high performance aircraft. So far, China has been unable to create the manufacturing technology and personnel skills that are needed to make the engines for their most advanced jet fighters. For example, China is a major customer for Russian RD93 engines (originally designed for the MiG-29), and has bought over a thousand of them. The RD93 engines currently cost about $2.5 million each.

China has been developing a similar (apparently identical) engine to the RD93, the WS-13. Actually, this effort is being aided by Russia, which is selling China technology needed for the manufacture of key engine components. Russia isn't happy about this, because they don't want competition in the low cost jet engine market. Then again, China has a history of stealing technology it cannot buy, so the Russians are making the best of a bad situation. China says the WS-13 is nearly ready for service. Maybe, maybe not. Recently, China ordered another hundred RD93s. Building high performance military jet engines is difficult, and China has had problems mastering this kind of stuff. Not that they will not eventually acquire the skills, but until they do, they need the Russian made RD93s. Officially, more RD93 are being bought because China cannot produce enough of their WS-13s.

Chinese engineers also thought they had managed to master the manufacturing techniques needed to make a Chinese copy of the Russian AL31F engine. This Chinese copy, the WS10A, was meant for the Chinese J-10 fighter, which entered service two years ago. But the Chinese Air Force was not satisfied with the reliability or performance of the WS10A, and have ordered another hundred AL31Fs from Russia, in order to continue building J-10s. Meanwhile, Russian efforts to build an improved AL31 for their own F-22 competitor, have run into serious problems. Will the Chinese suddenly do better than their tutors?

The J-10 is the first modern jet fighter designed and built in China. The aircraft is an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. The experiment was not completely successful. Work on the J-10 began over twenty years ago, in an attempt to develop an aircraft that could compete with the Russian MiG-29s and Su-27s, and the American F-16. But the first prototype did not fly until 1998. There were problems, and it wasn't until 2000 that the basic design flaws were fixed. By 2002, nine prototypes had been built, and flight testing was going forward to find, and fix, hundreds of smaller problems. It was a great learning experience for Chinese engineers, but it was becoming apparent that the J-10 was not going to be competitive with the Su-27s/30s China was buying from Russia. The J-10 looks something like the American F-16, and weighs about the same (19 tons). Like the F-16, and unlike the Su-27, the J-10 has only one engine.

The 13 ton JF-17, which uses the RD93, is meant to be a low cost alternative to the American F-16. It was developed in cooperation with Pakistan. The JF-17 is considered the equal to earlier versions of the F-16, but only 80 percent as effective as more recent F-16 models. The JF-17 design is based on a cancelled Russian project, the MiG-33. Most of the JF-17 electronics (in the Pakistani version) are Western, with Italian firms being major suppliers. The JF-17 can carry 3.6 tons of weapons and use radar guided and heat seeking missiles. It has max speed of nearly 2,000 kilometers an hour, an operating range of 1,300 kilometers and a max altitude of 55,000 feet. China has not yet decided on whether it will use the FC-1/JF-17 itself. This is apparently because China believes its own J-10 (another local design) and J-11 (a license built Russian Su-27) are adequate for their needs. The J-10, like the JF-17, did not work out as well as was hoped.

[DontTreadOnMe2009]

Great, just great. Remember when the Big Zero and John McCain both told us we didn’t need our F-22s cuz we had no one to fight against, using them?

Well, what do you say now, you two fools?

Oh yeah, and the cost was one or two billion dollars to keep the lines open?

Just a spit in the bucket compared to the bank bailouts, eh?

Thanks McCain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Thunder90]

The Chinese are building a F-22 knockoff, the J-xx, and the Russians are expected to fly their new design, the Sukhoi SU-50 Pak FA next year as well. (The Russian version of the F-22)

[SecondAmendment]

Unfortunately (and to my great puzzlement), Israel has illegally transferred much of our technology to the Chinese as well.

[norton]

Is there an explanation for the stylized national insignia in those pics?
Did I miss something in the news?

[Jewbacca]

“The J-10 is based on the Israeli Lavi”

Oft-repeated, but false.

[Little Ray]

Really? Can you please provide the source that says that it is not?

[Little Ray]

http://www.janes.com/news/defence/systems/jdw/jdw080519_2_n.shtml

Chinese J-10 ‘benefited from the Lavi project’

By Robert Hewson

19 May 2008

Russian aerospace engineers have confirmed to Jane’s that China’s Chengdu J-10 fighter aircraft benefited from significant, direct input from Israel’s Lavi programme - including access to the Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) Lavi aircraft itself.

In a number of interviews Jane’s has talked at length with several engineers, designers and technical specialists - some of whom have been working with their Chinese counterparts for decades and have had first-hand experience on Chinese military projects. They have provided detailed accounts of the assistance given to various Chinese manufacturers and their military aircraft projects. This has included extensive design and performance modelling, wind-tunnel testing and advanced aerodynamic design input.

Senior Russian engineers who spoke to Jane’s recalled their many visits to Chengdu, and elsewhere in China, some of which began in the 1980s. Jane’s was told how Chengdu officials of the highest level stated how they had one of the IAI Lavi prototypes in their facilities. Describing his conversations with Chengdu concerning possession of a Lavi aircraft, one Jane’s source commented: “I did not consider that to be a revelation ... doesn’t everyone know that already?”

It is not possible to independently verify the Russian comments. The charge of Lavi technology transfer has been made before, but this time the claims come from individuals with sustained personal experience of the programme. Both Chinese and Israeli officials have long refuted any purported links between the J-10 and the Lavi.

234 of 785 words
© 2008 Jane’s Information Group
End of non-subscriber extract

Any comments?

[Jewbacca]

Oft-repeated, but a false rumor started by the Russians who claimed a prototype Lavi was moved to China.

I am a former IAF officer, and I was involved in the Lavi project.

First an appeal to common sense: look at the J-9, which predates Lavi. The evoltution is clear.

Second, the whole prototype-in-China business is easily refuted. When the Lavi was cancelled on 1987, a total of five airframes had been built. Prototypes #1 and #2 were completed prototypes, while #3, #4, and #5 were incomplete (#4 and #5 being little more than the basic frame).

Parts from unit #1 and #2 were pulled to complete unit #3 as the private-venture technology demonstrator (TD) aircraft.

#3 remains in the IAI hanger, and I’ve seen it myself.

The gutted unit #2 was put in the Israeli Air Force museum at the Hatzerim Airbase for static display, and the rest (gutted #1 and #4, & #5) were parted out.

That said, there WAS a technology transfer, but NOT of American technology.

Certain people ILLEGALLY sold elements of the Israeli-made ELM-2021 radar system, which can simultaneously track six air targets and lock on to the four most threatening targets for destruction.

They were fired/prosecuted, as appropriate.

This illegally-sold radar system probably has made its way into a number of Chinese and other enemy countries.

[Jewbacca]

Yes, see post below.

[Jewbacca]

I would also like to point out the lack of civil action by our US aviation counterparts.

Lockheed and General Dynamics (who have a vested money interest) found no basis for any civil action or mandatory fines and did not even try to bring suit.

Indeed, as part of an IAI stock offering, Lockheed and GD issued a “no evidence” letter that was included in the stock packet because the false Jane’s Defense rumors were crushing the stock price.

[SecondAmendment]

I am encouraged by your reply.

As I alluded to in my post, it would not make any sense for Israel to double cross the US in this way.

I believe (not 100%) that I first read about this issue in Bill Gertz “Betrayal”, and have since ran in to news about this issue from time to time.

Thanks for the information.

[Little Ray]

Thank you very much!

[TChris]

Chances are they may very well have an entire fleet set up and pilots who know every possible maneuver. We will never know because they aren’t flaunting their progress and I would think that their mlitary training techniques are kept under strict guard.

Pretty tough to hide it if you're accumulating hundreds and thousands of man-hours of air-to-air combat training, since you have to be up in the air with a jet and all. If the Chinese were doing that, we would know.

They aren't.

We are.

No other nation's pilots can compete with ours, overall.

[artaxerces]

Any clever Chinese military planner would realize the main source of American Air Superiority is superior pilot training. That’s probably why they have deployed thousands of missiles which can be used to kill as many U.S pilots on the ground/carrier as possible.

The surviving pilots who do take to the air would then be outnumbered 10 to 1 by Chinese fighters.

Any competent adversary will try to fight dirty or only on their own terms not ours.

[myknowledge]

Also, the Chicoms would prefer to overwhelm the deployed Raptor forces with larger numbers of Shenyang J-11B Flankers (Chinese upgraded variant of Sukhoi Su-27SK) and Chengdu J-10s. Think P-51 + P-47 vs Me 262 during WWII.

[myknowledge]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/11607526/F22-Raptor-Americas-Next-Lethal-War-Machine

Download it in PDF format.

[TChris]

Of course they would, but that wasn't the post to which I was replying, was it?

Remember, we have a few "clever military planners" of our own.