Eat Less Red Meat, Scientists Said. Now Some Believe That Was Bad Advice.

“I am not completely sure why so many of you Keto guys are so defensive.”

First, I don’t even do a true keto diet.

Second, you have said repeatedly that Keto is unhealthy. That reducing carbs - apparently any reduction below what the infallible government recommends - “will have an impact on your gut biome and the chance that this will be a good impact are probably fairly small.”

Ridiculous.

Both the Intuit and Masai had diets virtually carb-free until modern times, and they were perfectly healthy that way. As have white men who went with a no carb, all meat & fat diet. It isn’t as though we need to guess. If anything, the opposite is true: as carbs increase and become the predominant source of calories, human health goes down.

You have pointed out on a few threads that Keto is a fad diet and unhealthy in spite of the obvious fact it IS working for many. I have a son who is about to start it because his government, VA nutritionist’s recommended diet has left him at least 50 lbs overweight. I spent decades gain weight - slowly, but gaining - trying to go “low fat”. I’ve benefited from rejecting the government’s approved, one size fits all solution for everyone. The benefits have been so pronounced that I will never go back.

Unless, of course, I take up competitive long distance cycling in my 60s.

And yes, I want others to at least know there IS another way, and that it is NOT harmful. Think of me as evangelically low carb, although unlike a vegan I only discuss diet on threads where it is already the subject.

I would prefer it if you could cut and pasted my actual words and then commented. It would be easier to understand exactly what you object to rather than your preferred straw man mischaracterization. I have tried to be very careful about how I have worded what I have written in this type of thread. i understand that the true believers in low carb diets, are almost always very easily offended.

What I have said repeatedly... is that low carb diets often do help many inactive people lose weight, but that I have first hand knowledge of people who have had serious problems from them. And many, even after they have become very ill, will ignore their physician's dietary advice and continue to make themselves sicker.

But my primary objection outside of the cult like nut cases that I have known... is that choosing to
not eat very nutritious foods because of how many “carbs” they contain is stupid.

You should watch the comic video that I linked to. It is hilarious, but eerily accurate in many cases.

“I would prefer it if you could cut and pasted my actual words and then commented.”

Ummm...that is what I did. If it still confuses you, then perhaps we just need to end things.

“i understand that the true believers in low carb diets, are almost always very easily offended.”

No, no more so than folks like yourself who insist on posting why a low carb diet is harmful:

“I have first hand knowledge of people who have had serious problems from them. And many, even after they have become very ill, will ignore their physician’s dietary advice and continue to make themselves sicker.”

Really? How in the HECK does ANYONE get sick by restricting their carbs? I’ve met people who didn’t LIKE following a low carb diet & that is fine. But “very ill...continue to make themselves sicker”?

I don’t believe it.

Thank you for cutting and pasting. I really don't care if you believe me or not. But here goes... a close friend of ours cut out carbs and subsisted mostly on bacon, processed meat, and red meat. He did lose weight, and he told us his cholesterol numbers had improved but he started having severe health issues. After his first heart attack he was given a very specific diet and told that if he didn't start eating right he would die. Of course he wouldn't follow it because it had carbs, he mocked his doctors and said they didn't know about the latest research. And he died. There is a lot more detail that I could go into, but I am not going to bother since you just think that I have some reason to lie to you.I

Eating an unbalanced diet that has very little diversity and not much nutritional value is a bad idea for a lot of reasons. I knew a lot of vegetarians growing up and the ones who stuck with it are all either dead or have pretty bad health issues. But they have hung on longer than many low carb people that I have known. But of course I must have some reason to lie about that to you. Don't I?

Here is another story that you won't believe. We got a call for a 911 hang-up who said that he had chest pain. About half a block from the house I saw a poorly parked pickup at the side of the road with a guy with glazed over eyes and foam coming out of his mouth.

We drug him out of the truck and started the entire CPR routine on him and the medics showed up and gave him drugs and shocks, but he couldn't be revived. A couple weeks later his brother came by the station and thanked us for our unsuccessful efforts.

The brother brought a bunch of protein powder and protein bars with him that he thought guys at the fire station might want... which they did. I asked him what happened to his brother, because he wasn't very old and he wasn't all that fat. He said that his brother had lost a lot of weight using Atkins, but he developed an arrhythmia and his doctor gave him a diet to follow, but he refused because he believed that he knew better than the doctor.

So with my other post these are two people who may or may not be applicable to you and others here. The most worrisome thing that they have in common is that they both refused to take their doctors advice because they thought that they knew better. Two people does not really make a pattern, but I know of quite a few other similar examples. You likely will believe none of it however because you are a true believer as well. If you started to develop similar issues, I wonder if you would take your doctor's advice, I know many others who would not. When you are young you can get away with a lot of unhealthy decisions, but as we get older it becomes more dangerous to make ourselves into Guinee pigs.

As far as the cutting and pasting comment, I apologize. What I was trying to object to was the way you cut and pasted at some points and then made reference also to your misinterpretation of what I had said in other posts. I meant that I preferred it when you stuck to the cutting and pasting but it came out wrong.

I appreciate the way your last post was done.

Long-term effects of a ketogenic diet in obese patients - 6 month trial

“RESULTS:

The weight and body mass index of the patients decreased significantly (P<0.0001). The level of total cholesterol decreased from week 1 to week 24. HDL cholesterol levels significantly increased, whereas LDL cholesterol levels significantly decreased after treatment. The level of triglycerides decreased significantly following 24 weeks of treatment. The level of blood glucose significantly decreased. The changes in the level of urea and creatinine were not statistically significant.
CONCLUSIONS:

The present study shows the beneficial effects of a long-term ketogenic diet. It significantly reduced the body weight and body mass index of the patients. Furthermore, it decreased the level of triglycerides, LDL cholesterol and blood glucose, and increased the level of HDL cholesterol. Administering a ketogenic diet for a relatively longer period of time did not produce any significant side effects in the patients.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716748/

This is supposedly the opposite side:

“Instead, it forces people to dramatically curb their sugar intake (remember, sugar is 100 percent carbohydrate) and kick processed foods to the curb.

Those are both good habits for overall health and blood-sugar levels, and they can help reduce your likelihood of developing cancer.

But like taking aspirin, eating a special high-fat, low-carb diet probably shouldn’t be an everyday habit for otherwise healthy people. Our bodies simply aren’t designed to fuel up on fats, unless we’re literally starving.

Even Josh Axe, a keto evangelist, has said it’s not a diet that should be followed for more than a few months at a time.

Finally, low-carb diets make it easy to neglect key nutrients like magnesium, calcium, and potassium that can be plentiful on less restrictive diets with fresh, high-carb foods like beans, bananas, and oats.”

https://www.sciencealert.com/huge-studies-show-we-need-carbs-so-keto-diet-not-healthy-for-long-term?perpetual=y

Oddly enough, my not really keto with intermittent fasting has left all my blood mineral readings utterly normal. And this statement “Our bodies simply aren’t designed to fuel up on fats, unless we’re literally starving.” is silly. Almost ANY diet that allows any fat at all will use fats for fuel. Granted, long distance running / cycling etc may well need carb loading. But at lesser levels - be it my running 3-4 miles or riding horses or levels of activity still greater than the American average - using fat for fuel works fine.

I don’t think I’d recommend a low carb diet for someone who doesn’t have a weight problem. If someone’s weight is fine, then...it’s fine! But for those of us who have built up an extra 30-50+ lbs of fat, getting our body’s hormones optimized for burning fat just makes good sense.

This website has a good approach, I think:

https://www.ruled.me/how-to-maintain-long-term-keto-weight-loss-results-for-life/

FWIW, I like intermittent fasting as an approach more so than keto, which is why I don’t do a true keto diet. I do a reduced carbs, very low sugar, enjoy saturated fat eating style combined with going at least 18 hours without food almost every day. Going 18+ hours without eating means I need sustainable energy to prevent cravings, and fat gives that. But I’m also in Arizona and have no intention of giving up flour tortillas! Sorry, but some things just don’t work for me.

I’m close to a “One Meal A Day” approach since my evening meal is often an ounce of cheese or some nuts. And if we are celebrating something (like today), I can go out and eat anything I feel like eating in a restaurant. Sustainable and rigid don’t go together for me. My wife and I have also declared Sunday our “Who Cares?” day.

Still I’m finding the less carbs and less flour and less sugar I eat, the less of them I want to eat. Importantly, this is an approach to how I want to eat, not a diet. Diets are something you start and end to reach a goal. An approach to eating is a way of living.

I am glad that you have found something that you feel works well for you. In my previous line of work guys lost weight on low carb diets and as long as they were reclined in an easy chair they were just fine. But when we had a fire or we were working hard at the drill ground, things often didn’t go so well for them. So your solution is not a one size fits all thing.

And I have already told you about the severe difficulties some people I have known personally have had. You choose not to believe me and that is just fine too. I get the feeling you would rather participate in an echo chamber and feel that people who do not share your belief system are considered to be annoying or worse.

I will continue to advocate for a diet that does not focus on carb content to make decisions about what is good or bad to eat. I feel that is an arbitrary system which in the long run will be a detriment to most people’s health.

Oh and I appreciate that you have acknowledged in your post that we actually do agree that low carb diets are not a one size fits all proposition. I will concede also that anyone who is paying attention to what they put in their mouths is likely much better off than most of the population who eat anything they want without any consideration as to what the health consequences might be. So good job on that and your contributions here likely are helpful to many.

And this statement “Our bodies simply aren’t designed to fuel up on fats, unless we’re literally starving.” is silly.

I would like you to share with me the location of the post that I supposedly wrote this in. I do not remember ever saying such a thing. I don't have a problem with eating fats, proteins or carbohydrates. We are omnivores. I think that you are referring to a statement made by someone else.

OK, I see that quote was from the 2nd article that you linked to. I needed to read your post a little more carefully.

Yes, it is better. Plus, the Sams here is pathetic. Very little merchadise and I’ve had their meat. It isn’t the same quality as Cosco.

I have been curious about beef liver since listening to a lecture from Nina Teicholz. I came across your response in this thread and worked up enough courage to finally try it this week. I was surprised over how much I enjoyed it, and my level of energy afterwards was through the roof. Thanks for the tip!

You’re very welcome!
I have no cooking skills at all, and after long experience with beef liver I still can’t always get it right. Fry it watchfully...get it out of there the instant it goes from red to pink inside. And it doesn’t store well, the first slice in the package is always the best; after two days, it better be gone.
But yes, the day after you have some, you will definitely feel pretty frisky.

I soaked it, completely immersed, in whole milk. Then I fried it with just a tablespoon or so of flour with sauteed onions and peppers and salt and pepper — a little pinkish on the inside. Super low carb — super high energy! I wish I had discovered this during my college final exams days.