Posted on 09/22/2022 11:21:30 AM PDT by marcusmaximus
Russia had already declared its intent in spring, and is now going ahead with plans to annex the territories it has occupied in the south and east of Ukraine on a fast-track basis. Simultaneous votes in the Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions have been scheduled from September 23 to September 27. In a speech on Wednesday, Russian President Vladimir Putin suggested that Moscow would recognize the results.
Just as it did with the Crimean annexation in 2014, Russia is making a point of appearing not to be involved. It was local Ukrainian politicians supported by the Russian military who announced the so-called "referendums." As in the case of Crimea eight years ago, the vote has been brought forward from a previously suggested date — that of November 4. Regional referendums are banned in Ukraine. Like in Crimea, there will be no independent election monitoring.
Yes' or 'no'
However, that is as far as the similarities go — there are far more differences.
Russian media are reporting that there will be regional differences. In Donetsk and Luhansk, the ballot will pose a single question, to be answered with a "yes" or a "no," on whether to join the Russian Federation.
In Kherson and Zaporizhzhia, three questions will be asked but only one "yes" or "no" answer will be possible: "Are you for secession from Ukraine, establishing an independent country and joining the Russian Federation?"
Voting will also take place in Russia, where hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have fled since 2014. The majority of Ukrainian refugees, however — several million — have fled to regions controlled by Kyiv and abroad.
(Excerpt) Read more at dw.com ...
The choices are:
Stop Putin now. Relatively cheap, requires no US military on the ground.
Or,
(The Euro’s foolishly do not have the weapons stockpiles and production capacity to stop Putin.) Let Putin get his warm water shipyards and additional ports, control of vast undeveloped petro resources (it’s not that Russia needs more, it’s the control issue), more bodies for cannon fodder, Ukraine’s steel plants, the threat of nuclear blackmail firmly established...
It’s not that the problems we have now are unimportant, it’s just that they will pale in comparison to the certain problems of a Russian victory. The best outcome would be in a decade or two a Russian dominated if not controlled Europe and a new Cold War costing, what, several trillion $$ per year? I think that’s pretty optimistic, actually. Next best would be an even more costly conventional war that similarly grinds to a standoff, but Western Europe might be saved. Worse of course is if it goes nuclear. In any case, even if the US, Russia, and China end up in an uneasy standoff, the nuclear proliferation in the interim almost certainly blows up in 50 years or so due to some other party. Happy Geiger counting for our descendants.
Oh, I forgot a question: Would you be opposed to a lend-lease program where Europe guarantees repayment for weapons sent to Ukraine from the USA? Or where repayment would be essentially in the form of strategic minerals from Ukraine?
(Yeah, I know, that sounds a lot more like a Trump type deal than anything Biden would have the sense to negotiate.)
You are dreaming. After the Ukraine experience there is zero chance Putin attacks Poland or Hungary. Those do not even share common border with Russia.
The only cold war is the gleam in eyes of American Neocons. Putin does not need a cold war, but American Neocons certainly do.
Something quite interesting is happening: Poland and Ukraine are becoming massively integrated on friendly terms. A Russian supremacist’s worst nightmare, basically.
It matters zero who owns the black soil, Russia or Ukraine.
It matters zero who owns the oil, bad dictators or good dictators.
No one can eat black soil and no one can drink oil. They all must sell it on the market. Attacking Saddam was the biggest American foreign policy blunder since Vietnam.
Yeah, Poland wants to take back what was once theirs. Just might happen.
It will not happen. Poland has no interest in opening up that can of worms.
Yeah, Poland wants to take back what was once theirs. Just might happen.
That’s a Russian fantasy and not what’s happening at all. If anything politically Poles would like a buffer between themselves and imperialist Russians. I was talking more on a human level with so many Ukrainians now living, working, etc., in Poland. Ukraine’s shared history with Russia is broken now and there is no going back.
We do not know what is inside Putin’s mind. I would not worry too much about Russia.
This is the real and stark naked fact. Our real enemy is one who is stealing our wealth via big trade deficits. That country is China where US manufacturing jobs have gone, not to Russia. We do not buy many manufactured products from Russia. Manufacturing ranks as #1 wealth creator and backbone of middle class size in any country.
Stupid American foreign policy squanders treasure and blood fighting in Vietnam and middle-east and Ukraine, while China keeps buying factories and farm land and mines all over the world. Come on people, clear the cobwebs, get rid of chest thumping and neocon mentality and recognize why we are now a bankrupt country with largest national debt in the world history.
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