Posted on 04/19/2002 4:57:04 PM PDT by anotherview
And, when it was spreading, was it Pharisees that persecuted Christians or Romans? Besides the rejection of Joshua, which was a disagreement within Judaism and among Jews, what other evidence do you have of Jews persecuting Christians?
You will not find any. How do you even dare to bring this up after the unrelenting Christian persecutions of Jews, including burning alive, enslavement, expulsion, mass-murder, rape, forced conversions? I am not even talking about economic discrimination and humiliation. Told you, Jorge, you need help in this class.
You have not shame, Jorge.
They can dish it out but they can't take it. Try mentioning the genocidal acts and crimes against humanity of Bela Kun, Trotsky, Kaganovtich, Yagoda, Slansky, Nahman Dushanski and Salomon Morel and see what happens.
This is a slander. Hitler drew his ideology from ANTI-Christian sources.
You will not find any. How do you even dare to bring this up after the unrelenting Christian persecutions of Jews, including burning alive, enslavement, expulsion, mass-murder, rape, forced conversions?
First, there are historical records of Jews persecuting Christians (or inciting Romans to do it). But you will dismiss any such argument as antisemitic. Second - to claim this "unrelenting Christian persecutions of Jews" is a nasty slur. I have impression that you are influenced by your hatred.
And, when it was spreading, was it Pharisees that persecuted Christians or Romans? Besides the rejection of Joshua, which was a disagreement within Judaism and among Jews, what other evidence do you have of Jews persecuting Christians?
You will not find any. How do you even dare to bring this up after the unrelenting Christian persecutions of Jews, including burning alive, enslavement, expulsion, mass-murder, rape, forced conversions?
First, there are historical records of Jews persecuting Christians (or inciting Romans to do it). But you will dismiss any such argument as antisemitic. Second - to claim this "unrelenting Christian persecutions of Jews" is a nasty slur. I have impression that you are influenced by your hatred.
Hitler... sought the advice of the Mufti Husseini of Jerusalem, who eagerly became Hitler´s partner in planning the "final solution" for the Jews.
You claim that the letter "attempts to equivocate and link "Christianity" with Adolf Hitler, while also accusing the two entities of being in "partnership in planning the Final Solution" for Jews, The named entities are not Hitler and Christianity --- that indeed would be preposterous and unexcusable. The named entities are Hitler and the Mufti of Jerusalem.
I have merely attracted your attention to the fact that your emotions led you to hasty conclusions rather than analysis. Even after that you persist in putting words into the rabbi's mouth. That in itself is proof that you merely seek support for your prejudical attitude, you do not even bother to think in face of simple factual mistake as the one I just mention. It is your emotions that render you unable even to read. slander of millions, upon millions of people in the name of making political hay. But who cares, as long as the end justifies the means, eh? Now you attribute motives that were not expressed in the latter: as any college-level class will teach you this is something no one can do well.
I will not write to you again. It is clear that what you do and say is not a mistake, for honest people at least try to correct them. You are clealry prejudiced. Enjoy: you have company on this thread.
A nation can do whatever it d*mn well pleases when it is militarily strong enough to defend itself without any outside help from any other nation on Earth.
Once Israel can fight an all-out war with it's neighbors without having to rely on the United States of America for a massive logistics re-supply operation two weeks into the war, then Israel can start putting on airs about what they have a "right" to do.
In the mean time, the United States of America will tell Israel when and if it is in the vital interest of the United States to have the United States dragged into an Israeli war.
At the moment, Israel is a military adolescent living in Daddy's house and using Daddy's credit card. When you live in Daddy's house, you follow Daddy's rules. If Israel does not want to follow Daddy's rules, then Israel needs to move out of Daddy's house and assume complete responsibility for it's own military logistics.
So it is with children. So it is with nations. Quite simple, really.
[...]
Hitler drew his ideology from Christian sources
This guy makes Arafat looking good and refreshing.
Where has your ability to reason gone? Need I tell you that there is not chance whatsoever to win an argument by telling a person what he WILL do? Need I tell you that this is contrary to the very foundation of the Western thought because you deprive the person of free will? Yet you write:
But you will dismiss any such argument as antisemitic.
Not only I would not do so in such a case, I have never done so in my life, including whatever "life" I had on FR. In fact, you will find that when I do suspect a person of prejudice, I argue against what was said, the expressed prejudice. If it is a mistake or unfortunate choice of words, the reply clarifies everything. The prejudiced person usually insist on and reiterated his prejudice, in which case I may call that person so. I actually reserve a very strong accusation of anti-Semitism to most arrogant expressions of prejudice. I am far from being 20 years of age and have a record in life. I am not defending myself, of course, merely explaining. To attack me so without any foundation on your part is unfair in the very least.
Second - to claim this "unrelenting Christian persecutions of Jews" is a nasty slur. It would have been a slur had I been not referring to the record. From the post-Nicene resolutions and Papal decrees; to the enslavement of Jews in Spain in VII century; to the most catastrophic expulsion of Jews from Spain by Isabella the Catholic in 1492; to the countless auto-da-fe; to the expulsion from England and France in XXIII centuries (Jews have not been seen in England for four centuries after that, so not much persecution in that period); to Martin Luther's summons to burn the synagogues and kill the Jews; to the Ukrainian hero Khmelnitsky's raid on Poland, during which he murdered 180,000 of his fellow Ukrainian Jews --- much like the Crusaders liberated Europe from many fellow Jews on their way to Jerusalem, bragging of walking on occasion knee-high in blood (Khmelnitsky's thugs would open the womb of a pregnant Jewish woman and sow in shut a live cat causing the agonizing death); to laws of Massachusetts prohibiting residence of any Jew in the state; to East-European pogroms, often during the Easter week.
I am referring to the libel that Jews use Christian blood to make matzo (which originated in England, the most enlightened one when it comes to the Inquisition, for instance), to the enticements by prominent Church leaders and by the Church documents. There are a few countries where persecution was historically week and only sporadic --- Holland, for instance.
I am usually hasty to add that, throughout all times, there were true Christian souls with strong and pure hearts that not only did not have any prejudice themselves but even stood up for the Jews when those were unjustly attacked. Just yesterday, I wrote, in response to LarryReid, whom the existence of Jews appears to bother a lot. When he, apparently thinking that the whole world is like he is, claimed that Poles dislike Jews a lot, I was offended --- for the Poles. I wrote then, and am glad to repeat now, that there were literally thousand of Catholic Poles during the Holocaust that protected their fellow citizens of Jewish faith, risking invariably their own lives. Several thousand, in fact, died doing so. We remember them with deep gratitude.
What I was referring to, in sum is the posture of the Church as expressed not necessarily by all of its members but by leaders. To suggest that this was a slur is preposterous.
I have impression that you are influenced by your hatred.
This sentence left me flabbergasted first and then made me smile --- because of its absurdity. You will not find a single post or sentence that would indicate hatred. There were several times in my life, in fact, when I would be better off if I could hate. I am not trying to say that I am nice: I just never understood that emotion.
Now, I gave you respect of replying at some length. This is much more than you extended to me by merely throwing two accusation without any support (even if I deserved it, is that your standard of behavior?) Given that you were driven by emption that seems awfully familiar, I am not asking you to reply. It would be nice, however, if you were to ask yourself, what is that in you that allows you to cast a stone so easily on your fellow human being?
Is this also from the Bible?
Of course it is....perhaps if you actually read the posts you are responding to, you wouldn't have to ask.
And, when it was spreading, was it Pharisees that persecuted Christians or Romans?
Both.....but persecution of Christians began with the religious Jews and the Pharisees.
And their persecution of Christians began with persecution of Jesus Christ....and likewise, because the Jews were under Roman rule, they often brought the Christians before Roman authorities in attempts to prosecute them.
Besides the rejection of Joshua, which was a disagreement within Judaism and among Jews, what other evidence do you have of Jews persecuting Christians?
You will not find any.
Joshua was an Old Testament character, and has nothing to do with any of this. You are confused.
And contrary to your claim, I can produce plenty of evidence of Jews persecuting Christians in the New Testament. Here is just one example of Paul attesting to the fact that as religious Jew in the past, he had persecuted Christians;
Galatians 1:13
For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God,....
The religious Jews had the Christian named Stephen stoned (Acts 7:59) and Paul took part in this.
Acts 22:20
And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
After Paul was converted and became a Christian, the religious Jews tried to kill him as well...on several occasions;
Acts 9:22-23
But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.
And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him
Acts 14:19
And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead.
Here Paul is witnessing to the fact that the religious Jews persecuted Christ, and they persecuted Christians;
1 Thessalonians 2:14-15
For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets,and have persecuted us...
These are just a few of numerous scriptures which document the fact that the religious Jews persecuted Christians.
How do you even dare to bring this up after the unrelenting Christian persecutions of Jews, including burning alive, enslavement, expulsion, mass-murder, rape, forced conversions?
Easy. If someone wants to bring up persecution of Jews by these "so-called" Christians, then to be fair we can also point out that the religious Jews persecuted and yes, killed Christians.
Unfortunately you seemed offended at any even-handed presentation of the facts.
Told you, Jorge, you need help in this class.
ROFL!
What class would that be?
How to parrot juvenile cliches about how smart you think you are while at the same time displaying profound ignorance as to what anybody is talking about?
You could ace that class.
A brief review of our posts shows what a poor grasp of the facts you really have.
Just as we see above, proving you wrong has been far too easy.
Maybe you should research the subjects others are discussing before embarrassing yourself again.
Just a suggestion.
Well said! And worth repeating.
Huh? We could stop supporting Israel, pull our forces out of Saudi Arabia, and end sanctions against Iraq. Why aren't those "negotiable" issues?
I am sorry, I got carried away and I should be more patient. (The world "unrelenting" made me upset, if there were "unrelenting persecution" Jews would share the fate of Tasmanians quite quickly)
It is a slur because the interpretation of history is a tricky thing. If you are selective ,even without the exageration you can prove almost anything, especially if you have a huge many centuries material.
Imagine how the selective and historian historian could paint Jewish rule (short in the comparison) over occupied teritories of the West bank. He could made Jews look like the monsters and Palestinians like blameless lambs. In the sixteen centuries of Christian statehood (4th to XIXth) there were countless good and bad things. In my opinion good things much more numerous than bad.
I will take on the two HARDEST cases to show you that the interpretation is tricky - the expulsion of Jews from Spain and Inqusition investigation of Jews. Just keep in mind that the reason I am doing it is to illustrate to you that history like statistics can be interpreted in very different ways. The presence of bias can yield the opposite pictures even amnong honest people.
First example:
The expulsion of Jews and Muslims happened after the victory of reconquista the process in which the enslaved Christian threw away the centuries old yoke of opression. Muslims and Jews often cooperated in the rule of Spain and Spanish Christians were not certain if those two numerous population will not succeed in bringing in a new invasion from the North Africa. (Remember that this was time when Muslims were conquering Balkans and trying to invade Italy). Such expulsions happened in history to the other people than Jews and could also happen to the Palestinians.
Second example:
about Inquisition - since many Jews in order to avoid the expulsion were faking a conversion to Catholicism (false marranos) the goverment decided to expell the converts as well. The Catholic Church intervened claiming that it would be extremely unjust to the genuine converts. So the compromise was set that the Church investigators (Inquisition) will make individual inquries in about every suspect convert.
You will not find any.
Jorge: Joshua was an Old Testament character, and has nothing to do with any of this. You are confused. This is true: I am confused about many things.
However, Joshua is the name of the one you, following the Romans, call Jesus Christ.
Much like Moses, who name is Moishe Rabeinu.
I have tried and failed to attract your attention to two mistakes you make. First, there is a difference between actions of individual members of a group and the as a whole. The persecution I was referring to and which you coniveniently for your conscience refuse to see, is that by organized Church, not just individial Christians. The sins of individual Christians are not a problem to me: there are plenty of sins commited by individual Jews as well; all people a human.
The second is that what you read in the Bible is, as somone else already pointed out to tou, is a disagreement within Judaism and among the Jews. In his lifetimes, Joshua became a rabbi who was teaching an unorthodox version of Judaism. Those who follow his version and accept the divinitiy of Christ are called Christian today.
We both expressed our views at length by now, so I'll leave the discussion at that. I do thank you for your extensive post and writing to me.
I was going to say that.
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