Baptism (Immersion) essential to salvation

Lessons from Acts | 1991 | Ken L. Miller, Ed.D.

[arrogantduck]

Thank you for your insight and time. Your analogies are good and I respect your opinion and will keep this in mind in future conversations. However, I still must disagree with you.

[TheTruthess]

Truth is Truth - whether we believe it or not and whether we practice it or not.

[JohnnyM]

So let me ask you a question:

A man hears the good news of the Gospel. He believes what he hears and beleives that Jesus Christ died for his sins. Now, before he can get baptized he dies. Is he not saved?? Is he going to be under God's wrath, eventhough he believed?

JM

[JohnnyM]

So let me ask you a question:

A man hears the good news of the Gospel. He believes what he hears and beleives that Jesus Christ died for his sins. Now, before he can get baptized he dies. Is he not saved?? Is he going to be under God's wrath, eventhough he believed?

JM

[biblewonk]

And how would that be?

[jkl1122]

This is what is known as a "hard case". What God does in such a situation is not spelled out in Scripture, so we have no way of knowing for sure. What we do know is that we are to believe, repent of our sins, confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and be baptized for the remission of our sins. It is that simple.

[biblewonk]

Individual examples can never prove this issue because we don't know whether the person ever was saved to beginwith or was a wannabe, or if they were saved and have just "stumbled" really bad. We can only go to the Bible for proof.

[TheTruthess]

A man hears the good news of the Gospel. He believes what he hears and beleives that Jesus Christ died for his sins. Now, before he can get baptized he dies. Is he not saved?? Is he going to be under God's wrath, eventhough he believed?

Only the Lord knows the answer to that question.  All we can do is be obedient to His Word and spread the good news in order to save souls.

[mike182d]

Indeed, that's probably the same sort of logic that gives you a Mary who was immaculately conceived, perpetually sinless, perpetually virgin, and never experienced a bodily death.

Would you like to discuss the topic at hand or take cheap shots and try to divert the subject matter entirely?

In ancient Jewish tradition, it was a common practice for any Rabbi to have disciples. It would be this small group of men that would follow the Rabbi everywhere, learn from him, and then upon the Rabbi's death, it would be only these men that would have the authority to recount stories of the Rabbi and carry on his teachings. This is why Jesus chose the Apostles - not because it was something "new" to Judaism, but rather because it would be these men that would carry on his tradition and teachings- in accord with Jewish tradition.

Given that the role of an Apostle is to carry on the teachings of the Rabbi, and that one of the teachings of Jesus was the He was the Son of God, our sole hope of salvation, are you suggesting, then, that Jesus appointed someone who did not believe Christ's teachings to carry on these very same teachings?

You find throughout the New Testament Jesus calling the Pharisees "broods of vipers" and "hypocrites." Why? Because they were teaching and imposing upon the people something they did not believe or do themselves. In the same vain, if Judas was a nonbeliever, would it not be hypocritical of him to teach what he did not believe? Futhermore, would it not be hypocritical of Jesus to charge Pharisees of the very thing you are suggesting He did?

I would rather accept the logic of a Church that believes in the perpetual virginity of Mary than a logic that believes Christ is a hypocrite, but that its OK because He's God and can do whatever He wants.

[verity]

What about the child of non Christian parents who dies in infancy?

[JohnnyM]

Thanks for your kind words. Going back to the Isrealites in Egypt. It was their application of the blood of the Passover lamb on their doorposts that saved them from the angel of death. The baptism did not occur until the Red Sea. It is the Blood of Christ, our Passover Lamb, that saves us from God's wrath. It is not the Blood plus baptism.

JM

[dangus]

There is the spiritual world, and the physical world.

In the spiritual world, a man receives salvation.

In the physical world, he is baptised.

There is no causal relation between the two worlds, only the assurance that God, who is author of all things, has accomplished both. Nothing we do CAUSES God's grace, but our desire and ability to act as he commands us is a sign of his grace.

The baptism is not the cause of the man receiving salvation, but it is a sign that he is receiving it. Absent that sign, his slavation is not assured. But it can happen, as was demonstrated by the incident of the thief on the cross.

So, therefore:

A deliberately insincere baptism is a desecration, a mockery of a divine sign; it does not bring grace.

Salvation can occur without the sign of baptism, when the means of baptism are not available. But if a person claims to be saved while refusing a sign that God promises to us, what are we to make of his claim? He is either a liar or he is deluded. In any event, his claim is untrue, and is a work of Satan.

Baptism is not the completion of the work of sanctification, however, it is closer to the beginning.

[maui_hawaii]

My two cents for what its worth... "salvation" doesn't come before baptism or during the actual event. It is required to get the Gift of the Spirit though.

Baptism is a covenant. After you made the covenant with God, then the determination of Salvation begins, and its a lifelong one.

In other words, one gets baptised to promise obedience to God.

Once we are standing at the judgement God will see all our works and say "you tried your best to keep your end of the bargain...so welcome in my friend"...

If one gets baptised but never picks up a bible again, but rather goes and picks up a 12 pack every friday and heads to the bar and cheats on his wife etc etc...whole different story.

[redgolum]

The act of baptism, in and of itself, does not neccessarly mean you have a get out of hell free card. Nor does not getting baptized mean you are automatically condemned to hell.

You can lose you salvation. You can turn your back on God.

Lutherans believe that God gives you the gift of saving faith, but you can reject that faith. You can't earn forgiveness, but you can reject it.

As for the case of a person coming to faith in Jesus and dieing before baptism, well many of the early church fathers and beyond have said that yes they are probably in heaven. Baptism is more than just a formality, it is commanded by Jesus.

[Buggman]

Jesus did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.

And if I may add some clarification, "fulfill" here does not mean "bring to an end by fulfilling" as some believe. It can have two meanings. The first is simply to "make full" or "make complete." All the Torah points to the Messiah in one way or another, and by His presence, we now have the keys to understand it.

The second, rabbinically, is, "To properly interpret." This interpretation would seem to follow from the fact that the next four chapters (Mt. 5-8) are a sermon on the proper application of the Torah rather than a dismissal of it or an explanation of how Jesus intended to "fulfill" it.

Not that keeping the full Torah and converting to the Jewish culture is a condition of salvation or fellowship (Acts 15). But I think the Church as a whole for most of its existence has been wrong in simply dismissing it, or making disobedience to certain parts of it (like kosher) a condition for Jews who wished to enter into the fellowship of their Messiah. ("Oh, you're a Christian now? Wonderful! Here, have a ham sandwich!")

[mike182d]

Answer this question: is Moses in heaven?

[JohnnyM]

We know the answer. This is not a "hard case". The robber on the Cross is a testimony to this. He believed and was saved. Jesus said the robber would be with Him in Paradise on that day. No baptism needed. It is our belief that saves us from the wrath of God and gives us eternal life.

JM

[dangus]

>> So, David, Moses, and Elijah aren't in heaven? <<

No, they were not until the resurrection of Jesus. They were in Abraham's bosom, a mild plane of Hades/Sheol/The Grave.

[mike182d]

And if I may add some clarification, "fulfill" here does not mean "bring to an end by fulfilling" as some believe. It can have two meanings. The first is simply to "make full" or "make complete." All the Torah points to the Messiah in one way or another, and by His presence, we now have the keys to understand it.

Thank you for the clarification. That is what I meant - the Christian Church is really just an extension of the Jewish faith and cannot be thought seperate from it.