Archbishop Viganò: We Are Witnessing Creation of a ‘New Church’

“Holy Mother Church is indivisible”

But if the disagreements become too large then perhaps certain factions are no longer practicing the beliefs of the Holy Mother Church, and could be considered no longer part of that church. How about that?

Lol.... For those can keep their Faith...and many cannot.... the gates of hell shall NOT prevail....The Church has been persecuted from the beginning- THAT is the nature of the Church that we must suffer with him...

If you’re in need off ease and comfort....Cut bait and run from the Church...

But for those who can keep the Faith... run the whole race....while they will suffer for a time...They will find comfort in the end....We are promised both suffering and comfort...

1212? all the cut and pasting you provide and yet you can not see this.....your hatred for the Church is not the affirmation for your faith You think it is....

Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice insofar as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.

"Lol.... For those can keep their Faith...and many cannot.... the gates of hell shall NOT prevail....The Church has been persecuted from the beginning- THAT is the nature of the Church that we must suffer with him... If you’re in need off ease and comfort....Cut bait and run from the Church... But for those who can keep the Faith... run the whole race....while they will suffer for a time...They will find comfort in the end....We are promised both suffering and comfort... 1212? all the cut and pasting you provide and yet you can not see this.....your hatred for the Church is not the affirmation for your faith You think it is."

Meaning once again when faced with what exposes your fallacies and refutes your arguments then your recourse to reiterating propaganda again ad hominem assertions. Meaning another confirmation of Catholic cultism and reasons why one should leave it for conservative evangelical Bible faith.

Exactly.
Your DIY man made “Bible Faith” that was invented decades ago...converts mostly dissenters...
The One Holy Apostolic Church has to go out into the world as if always has...

"Your DIY man made “Bible Faith” that was invented decades ago...converts mostly dissenters... The One Holy Apostolic Church has to go out into the world as if always has..."

Rather, it remains that it is mostly RC (even more so then the EO's) distinctive teachings are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, in particular Acts through Revelation, which best shows how the NT church understood the gospels).

Of course, multitudes of your TradCath brethren that you are in dissent from also think that your modern Bergoglio church is contrary to many ancient teachings (true), while liberal Prot churches that like your pope have their own serious ssues, while traditional evangelicals overall typically testify to an essential unity greater than their tribal divisions, but are in need of revival.

"mostly RC (even more so then the EO's) distinctive teachings are not manifest in the only wholly inspired...NT Church...

WHICH NT Church are you referring to here? The one of Apollos ? Paul, Cephas- OR Christ??- The NT Church did understand the fulfillment of the Jewish Sacrifice, the Priesthood serving God and Eucharistic devotion (documented of the Essenes) through OT Scripture - passing through from the Resurrection - Establishing in a form to go forward with... (Even establishing a Treasury !) You will not find perfect conformity anywhere- it does not exist... with man, it is impossible. But what you will find in the early Church writings of that time is the development of the Church- which would need man to pass it on. And that structure is found - still to this day - in the Mass. Do you find early Church beliefs anywhere else in today's world?

You keep trying to force this human nature, this man, into God's Kingdom he is building...Trad caths, Rad-Trads - Glad trads- ..Bergoglio.. Biden Pelosi- all of us flawed sinners do.not.define. the essence of the Church - nor it's mission. And unfortunately, Where you find God, you will ALSO find Evil... that is the existence we must navigate.

Your need is to turn to Bible study and scholarship (which you excel in, and find comfort in) just as the Jewish scholars did in leading up to Christ's time... And desire to make that the focus of your Faith path. It can't be, because eventually God's word will be usurped by man, as we find in the NT.(as modern Christian culture has perverted as well)

The Word does lead, "useful as a guide"- but it cannot accomplish - it cannot do God's will on its own. It cannot fulfill the commandments - That's the need of the Church, from it's beginning. It was not a whim of God to build this Church as he promised.

We need to be reminded all of this dies away with us, and must be passed on. But God's Kingdom does not stop being built - ever. I posted a sermon on this exact thing yesterday - no need to watch... It was God tells us in Ezekiel 17... He is building a Kingdom... The Babylonians tried, the Egyptians tried- the Romans, The Spanish, French, and British- Germany Russia America, China- ALL these Kingdoms have, and will die away- man's attempt to contravene God building his Kingdom is no match... only tower building.

Bad Popes- Good Popes... Man has been given responsibility- but the Holy Spirit will always be there... the rest will die away.. But The Church will always remain in the form necessary to bring, and keep, our souls, and others, to Christ in order that we may fully participate in his Kingdom.
As that is it's sole purpose of his Church- nothing else.

"WHICH NT Church are you referring to here? The one of Apollos ? Paul, Cephas- OR Christ??-"

If you read what I said then it is the church of Jesus Christ as most clearly manifest in Acts thru Rev. where Catholic distinctives are not. Which is why the rest of your post attacks this only wholly inspired-of-God and substantive record of what the NT church believed as being the supreme standard. And in which argumentation you employ a false dichotomy and confuse your church with the body of Christ which is the one true church and transcends your false church.

"- The NT Church did understand the fulfillment of the Jewish Sacrifice, the Priesthood serving God and Eucharistic devotion (documented of the Essenes) through OT Scripture -"

WRONG! The Catholic Eucharist - its doctrine and centrality of devotion is what is not what Scripture shows the NT church understood the OT Scripture as teaching.

"But what you will find in the early Church writings of that time is the development of the Church"

Meaning you must attempt to go outside the only wholly inspired-of-God and substantive record of what the NT church believed in order to read your foreign doctrine into it, relying on the uninspired words of men, however pious, which overall attest to progressive accretion of errors of men.

" And that structure is found - still to this day - in the Mass. Do you find early Church beliefs anywhere else in today's world?"

What? You define early Church beliefs as being distinctive Catholic beliefs based upon the uninspired words of certain men when the only wholly inspired-of-God and substantive record of what the NT church believed does not teach such. A mark of a cult.

"You keep trying to force this human nature, this man, into God's Kingdom he is building...Trad caths, Rad-Trads - Glad trads- ..Bergoglio.. Biden Pelosi- all of us flawed sinners do.not.define. the essence of the Church - nor it's mission. And unfortunately, Where you find God, you will ALSO find Evil... that is the existence we must navigate."

Your church is made up of members, and Rome manifestly counts such (except for some TradCaths) and thus you must own them. In contrast, as said, your false church has sadly become as the gates of Hell for multitudes. In contrast, the body of Christ, (Colossians 1:18) is the one true church to which He is married, (Ephesians 5:25) the "household of faith," (Galatians 6:10) for it uniquely only and always consists 100% of true believers, and which spiritual body of Christ is what the Spirit baptizes every believer into, (1Co. 12:13) while organic fellowships in which they express their faith inevitably become admixtures of wheat and tares, with Catholicism and liberal Protestantism being mostly the latter.

The degree that a church retains and preaches the convicting gospel of grace, of salvation by grave thru heart-purifying, justifying faith, then they are part of the church which the Lord promised would overcome the gates of Hell, that being

"Your need is to turn to Bible study and scholarship (which you excel in, and find comfort in) just as the Jewish scholars did in leading up to Christ's time... And desire to make that the focus of your Faith path. It can't be, because eventually God's word will be usurped by man, as we find in the NT.(as modern Christian culture has perverted as well)"

What manner of misconstruance is this? Making Scripture the supreme standard is the opposite of what the Jewish leadership of Christ's time did, as instead, as with your leadership of old, they presumed a level of ensured veracity God did not provide them with, while Scripture provided the prophetic and epistemological foundation for the church, and the Lord and NT church established their Truth claims Scriptural substantiation in word and in power. And Scripture is what truth claims are to be examined by, as even those of the apostles were by noble Truth-loving souls. (Acts 17:11)

You should return that fallacious polemic to wherever you got it from.

"The Word does lead, "useful as a guide"- but it cannot accomplish - it cannot do God's will on its own. It cannot fulfill the commandments - That's the need of the Church, from it's beginning. It was not a whim of God to build this Church as he promised. "

A false either/or dichotomy. Not only is Scripture not simply "useful as a guide" (for not only is it "able to make thee wise unto salvation" but as wholly God-inspired it is supremely "profitable [ōphelimos] for doctrine" - as Godliness is profitable [ōphelimos] unto all things:" 1Ti 4:8 - "for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works), but the argument is that Scripture is the sure and supreme sufficient standard for Truth, not that it formally (not explicitly) provides all things, for SS holds that what it materially provides for (besides such necessities as reason) is the church, with its magisterial office ("it belongs to synods and councils, ministerially to determine controversies of faith, and cases of conscience; to set down rules and directions for the better ordering of the public worship of God, and government of his Church; to receive complaints in cases of maladministration, and authoritatively to determine the same;" - The Westminster Confession of Faith (1646), CHAPTER XXXI)

But it is Scripture that even judges must be subject it. Thus you should also return that fallacious polemic to wherever you got it from.

"Bad Popes- Good Popes... Man has been given responsibility- but the Holy Spirit will always be there... the rest will die away.. But The Church will always remain in the form necessary to bring, and keep, our souls, and others, to Christ in order that we may fully participate in his Kingdom. As that is it's sole purpose of his Church- nothing else. "

The argument again is not that the organic church is superfluous, but that it is not the sure and supreme sufficient standard for Truth but must conform to it, as the Jewish leadership was to, but as with Rome, it presumed to think of itself far "above that which is written" which is contrary to what it says. (1 Co. 4:6) Even presuming to "infallibly" declare she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares.

Its over.

"WHICH NT Church are you referring to here? The one of Apollos ? Paul, Cephas- OR Christ??-"
If you read what I said then it is the church of Jesus Christ as most clearly manifest in Acts thru Rev. where Catholic distinctives are not. Which is why the rest of your post attacks this only wholly inspired-of-God and substantive record of what the NT church believed as being the supreme standard. And in which argumentation you employ a false dichotomy and confuse your church with the body of Christ which is the one true church and transcends your false church.

You missed my point. You cannot define an NT church in the way that you would like. We know what each Apostle desired, but we can’t arbitrate what was – “wholly-Inspired” If the Church of Jesus Christ was manifest in the NT as you say- why did the believers have such a difficulty with Unity of that One Church? And I know, as I mentioned… you are well versed and understand Ephesians 4 very clearly:

So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 UNTIL WE ALL REACH UNITY in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

St. Paul was striving for unity- he would NOT embrace doctrine that would achieve disunity- manifest of otherwise. What he wanted would “mature”, as it did, in the Catholic Church. Do you think St. Paul would be a proponent of hundreds of denominations as we see today?

"- The NT Church did understand the fulfillment of the Jewish Sacrifice, the Priesthood serving God and Eucharistic devotion (documented of the Essenes) through OT Scripture -"

WRONG! The Catholic Eucharist - its doctrine and centrality of devotion is what is not what Scripture shows the NT church understood the OT Scripture as teaching.

How can you say WRONG?
Again your superior scriptural knowledge indicts you. How can you not know of the Blood of Abel, the Sacrifice of Melchizedek, or Elijah- IN the desert- and the Angel who brings him sustenance, or the Bread of presence in Leviticus (and priestly celibacy by the way), or the Coal that cleansed Isaiah’s iniquities by touching his lips and found in Ezekiel’s (2) scroll… all up through the "Fourth Cup of the Covenant? (I also have to mention the Essene’s documented Eucharistic meal- that only the Priest could consecrate- as documented in the Qumran scrolls…) ALL these are preconfiguring the Sacrificial Lamb of God given to us at the Last Supper…. How do you not see this? How do you not see “Do this in Memory of me?

Meaning you must attempt to go outside the only wholly inspired-of-God and substantive record of what the NT church believed in order to read your foreign doctrine into it, relying on the uninspired words of men, however pious, which overall attest to progressive accretion of errors of men.

Really ? Uninspired-of-God.. scripturally speaking- meh.. possibly technically.. maybe… lacking of Christ’s Apostolic inspiration – NO!
And I would like to mention John’s caveat that Christ did many more things in their presence and taught them much more than what was written….
But there you go again with your pre-suppositional circular position. NO WHERE in the Bible does it say 1) The Bible (which did not exist completely in format, for the NT Church) is the sole nature and Authority of the Church- and No where in the Bible does it even say the Bible is the sole Authority for the faith of Christ. And so - Citing exegetical documentation- of WHAT WAS BELIEVED by the early Church fathers is somehow “out of bounds” for you? Would that substantive record of the NT be so misunderstood by those who lived in the day – and needs our correction 2000 years later?
Was St. Ignatius (107AD) wrong then to say…
”I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ,…….. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again ?

What? You define early Church beliefs as being distinctive Catholic beliefs based upon the uninspired words of certain men when the only wholly inspired-of-God and substantive record of what the NT church believed does not teach such. A mark of a cult.

Cult? really? I though we had moved beyond that... The meaning behind maintaining traditions based on scripture for 2000 years is testimony to the truth and unity - that the Apostles were sent out to create for the Church Christ told Peter he would build. For the record - The Romans did, by the way, refer to the Early Christians as a “cult”. And you know who won that battle.

Your church is made up of members, and Rome manifestly counts such (except for some TradCaths) and thus you must own them…. In contrast, as said, your false church has sadly become as the gates of Hell for multitudes. In contrast, the body of Christ, (Colossians 1:18) is the one true church to which He is married,

Christ Church IS NOT made of up members in the sense you presume.. We are sinners asking repentance first.. The Church does and has drawn in believers into which believe falsely and selfishly. They have individualistically interpreted scripture for their own needs- CONTRARY to Church teaching- apostasy- AND SO they CANNOT and do not define the Body of Christ in his Church… They can only project their flawed humanity upon it… similar to the erroneous basis of the many many heresies the Church has had to defeat to maintain the One true Church. Do not be mislead. We will be always be persecuted- do not expect the Way to be easy and carefree. Where there is God, the devil will be there as well… and he’s seducing the weak as we speak.

What manner of misconstruance is this? Making Scripture the supreme standard is the opposite of what the Jewish leadership of Christ's time did,….

Hmmm... “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?
Polemic? What had Israel’s teachers done then with Scripture? And what did they do with God with all their Laws? You do not see the corollary….The SAME scriptures- wholly inspired – were “usurped” and perverted by man- and ALWAYS will be… how many Bible translations are out there? You see St. Paul’s unity in any of that? The work of the Law became predominant- it overshadowed- where man’s desires grew and grew PREDOMINANT- and God, and his Will, became secondary and made smaller…. In that there is caution for you… and those who say the Bible- the Word of God cannot be abused- now or in centuries to come.. Yes- The NT can be abused in the same manner the Pharisees did with the old... And so, we need something more…. not alone A false either/or dichotomy. Not only is Scripture not simply "useful as a guide" (for not only is it "able to make thee wise unto salvation" but as wholly God-inspired it is supremely "profitable [ōphelimos] for doctrine"

I never said either/or…. You did. I just saying “not alone.” Scripture and tradition as St. Paul wanted for the NT church. You seem to agree with that as well…

The argument again is not that the organic church is superfluous, but that it is not the sure and supreme sufficient standard for Truth but must conform to it, as the Jewish leadership was to, but as with Rome, it presumed to think of itself far "above that which is written" which is contrary to what it says.

You are totally misrepresenting here - and I KNOW you better than that. Where most misunderstand Papal infallibility – you should not… The Church does not place tradition, and magisterium ABOVE Scripture… Christ instructed the Apostles for the Church to preach everything he taught - AND promised the infallibility through the Holy Spirit to guide THEM into all the truth… Christ will NOT abandon that guarantee- ever. The Church has never fallen away from those Apostolic teachings- regardless of Bad Popes- who are sinful men-just as you or I- The man is not infallible – but the Word of God is -
So I am assuming you refer to Pastor aeternus. You Know that does not allow any infallibility for the Church or Pope for new doctrines. Any doctrines defined must be "conformable with Sacred Scripture and Apostolic Traditions":
For the Holy Spirit was not promised to the successors of Peter that by His revelation they might make known new doctrine, but that by His assistance they might inviolably keep and faithfully expound the Revelation, the Deposit of Faith, delivered through the Apostles.

Its over.

I hope not . :)