Lets Rebuild The Temple!...Israel Accepts the AntiChrist, But.....

Elijah has already come! Matthew 17:10-13 And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist. (BTW I like the green its easy on the eyes)

Mal. 4(Second Comming)
5 ¶ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

6 And he shall turn the *heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.(*Starting of genealogy or family history in the LDS church April 3,1836)

Now to me the great and dreadful day is Judgement Day the second comming of the Lord!

Elijah has already come....THE Prophet has already walked the earth!

I guess RnMomof7 would consider you spiritually deceived too then.

Are you willing to prayerfully consider that?

So, you agree that praying to discover the truth of something is a good thing to do? Good, because I have prayed to find the truth and God has answered, that's why I'm a Mormon.

Now I could go through and point out my reasons to disagree with your views on Elijah, Elias and the Priesthood, but I've done that enough to know what a waste of time it is. You have your opinons on what it means and I have mine. As I said before, I'm happy to let God be the judge.

In post #46 I asked a hypothetical, non denominational, question. I didn't say Elijah came back on such-and-such a date to this or that place, I just asked if people had faith to belive in such things being at least possible in this day and age.

The Isrealites always belived the past prophets while rejecting the current one of their day and I don't think human nature has changed all that much. People find it easier to belive in a long dead prophet than one who is alive and walks among them.

So, you agree that praying to discover the truth of something is a good thing to do? Good, because I have prayed to find the truth and God has answered, that's why I'm a Mormon.

Yes, I do think it's a good thing to pray to discover the truth, but how do we discern God's movement in our hearts from indigestion? We turn to God's revealed Word and compare.

The visiting Elders tell me what a beautiful family I have and that they believe that it will continue on into eternity. But when the Sadducees asked Christ about the state of family life in eternity, He has a very different answer than what the Elders are telling me:
Matt. 22:23-30
The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, saying: "Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her." Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

The Elders tell me that my 4-year-old doesn't sin. Yet David, inspired by the Holy Spirit says otherwise:
Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Not to mention the empirical evidence. Young children show a propensity for selfishness and violence from an early age. Only someone blind to sin would not realize that.

The Elders tell me that we are saved by grace, after we have tried our best. This not only contradicts Paul's teaching that we are saved by grace and not of works:
Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.
Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
Titus 3:5-6
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior

But Christ teaches that good works can earn you no favor because you're supposed to do them anyway.
Luke 17:7-10
"Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, `Come along now and sit down to eat'? Would he not rather say, `Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, `We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.'"
We can't tell God, "Sure we disobeyed You nine times, but You better be scoring that one time we did obey in our favor."

restornu alluded to trying the spirits (1 John 4:1) and Mormonism fails the test (this is by no means an exhaustive account of that test).

Yes, I do think it's a good thing to pray to discover the truth, but how do we discern God's movement in our hearts from indigestion?

Oh come on, thats like asking 'How do you tell Beethoven from Britany Spears?'. If you think that God can't give a clear answer, then you I would have to think you never got any answers from God for only a person who never had God answer him could ask such a question.

How did the people listening on the Day of Pentecost know they were being told the truth? The didn't say 'Let's all run home and check the scriptures, study it out for a week.' They said they were 'pricked in their hearts' and wanted to join right away, they knew right then and there that it was true because the Holy Ghost bore witness to them.

You rely on your own itellect and on the intellect of other men to determin what is ment by the scriptures, and all your quoting does is show that your opinion of what they mean doesn't match our opinion of what they mean. That doesn't prove anything other than that we both can't be right.

I already know we have different opinions, what I ask is how do you propose that I determin which is correct without relying on man's limited, fallible intellect?

I have the dreadful feeling, from the fact that the account of the mark of the beast in the Revelation to St. John the Theologian, that it will turn out to be a device with a neural interface, which will make repentence impossible (how else could a mark render spiritual grace inoperative?). We are coming perilously close to having such a techology.

It is a little trope I might include were I to write a novel as an Eastern Orthodox "reply" to the "Left Behind" series that the implantation will not need to be on the forehead or right-hand, but that artificial ganglia will form on the dominant hand and the forehead (near the eyes) to run a real-time neurally implemented virtual reality in which, deprived of even the reality of the Fallen world, one will be unable to attain salvation. I would, of course, depict pre-tribulation rapture believers cheerfully accepting the device, certain that it can't be the Mark because the rapture hasn't occurred.

Oh, and be careful about Elijah: while the Anti-Christ will have his False Prophet (as all the little antichrists throughout history have always had), Orthodox tradition tells us that the two witnesses against the Anti-Christ will be Elijah and Enoch (who will finally die so they can join in the Resurrection).

LOL! But what had Peter just done? He had just quoted Joel 2 and Psalms 16 & 110 to prove what he was saying was from God. The Holy Spirit uses God's Word to prick your heart. If this wasn't the case, then the New Testament would not be filled with Old Testament scripture in order to prove the veracity of the NT movement!

Acts 17:2-3 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, "This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ."

Acts 17:11-12 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men.

Acts 18:27-28 And when he (Apollos) desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace; for he vigorously refuted the Jews publicly, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.

But what had Peter just done? He had just quoted Joel 2 and Psalms 16 & 110 to prove what he was saying was from God.

So any sermon that quotes from scripture is true? What is your problem with our teachings then, we quote the OT and NT quite often when stating the case for what we teach.

They didn't have any way of knowing that these guys were not lying or trying to decieve them, other than the fact that the Holy Ghost witnessed the truth of it to them. Scripture can be twisted, misunderstood or misapplied so the fact that they quoted scripture to support their claim would not be in and of itself proof to the masses that the claim was legit. They didn't go, 'Great sermon!, but my lunch giving me heartburn so I've got to go.' They knew it was true because of the Holy Ghost, not because of their own intellect, and they could tell that it was from God, not from digestive problems.

What kind of justice and mercy is there in making it so that only people 'smart enough' to correctly understand the scriptures have a chance of salvation? This would make God a respecter of persons, unjust and unfair. By the witness of the Holy Ghost, even the dullest pencil in the box can know what is true and what is not if they have the faith to ask.

The Holy Spirit uses God's Word to prick your heart. If this wasn't the case, then the New Testament would not be filled with Old Testament scripture in order to prove the veracity of the NT movement!

The Holy Ghost will testify of truth whatever the source of that truth is, inside or outside of the scriptural record. It is by the Holy Ghost, not by man's own mental abilities, that a person can know the truth.

I agree that the Holy Spirit makes the Word effective, but my argument is that the two go hand in hand. You were trying to make the case that early Christians were pricked by the Holy Spirit without the use of the Word: How did the people listening on the Day of Pentecost know they were being told the truth? The didn't say 'Let's all run home and check the scriptures, study it out for a week.' They said they were 'pricked in their hearts'

Scripture can be twisted, misunderstood or misapplied so the fact that they quoted scripture to support their claim would not be in and of itself proof to the masses that the claim was legit.

Absolutely, and your sincere belief that Mormon Teaching is from the Holy Spirit does not make it legitimate either. There are a lot of people who say they have the inside scoop, but not all of them can be right. So what do we do? We compare the teaching to what we already know as the Word of God.

My point at the beginning of this debate was that what you think is from the Holy Spirit (Mormon Doctrine) directly contradicts the Word of God (See Post #65). My hope is that you will see (yes, through the Holy Spirit) that it is the Mormons who have “twisted, misunderstood” and “misapplied” Scripture.

I already know we have different opinions, what I ask is how do you propose that I determine which is correct without relying on man's limited, fallible intellect?

First of all, if our minds were to be left out of the equation, Paul would not have "reasoned" with the Jews in Acts 17:2 and Christ would not have told us to, "love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' (Matt. 22:37)

Paul tells us, "Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will." (Romans 12:2) This isn't to say that it's only the ones with earthly smarts who get it. God is the giver of true wisdom.

Secondly, I could just as easily ask how we determine which is correct without relying on man's limited, fallible heart? The Spirit moves both the heart and the mind.
Romans 8:6
"For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."

First of all, if our minds were to be left out of the equation....

But that's not what I said, we do have an obligation to study it out as best we can, but we must submit our own ideas and conclusions to God if we want to know if they are in fact correct. I feel you are saying that logic alone is sufficient, and I disagree with that. History shows that good and honest men who desire to follow Christ can not come to the same conclusions relying on just logic.

Secondly, I could just as easily ask how we determine which is correct without relying on man's limited, fallible heart?

A valid question. My answer is that you misunderstand what we mean. We are trying to tell you of something that is outside your experience and that is very hard to put into words. It isn't about picking what you would like to pick, it's about reciving communication from God. You know the difference between your own silent thoughts and voice of a friend, likewise when that answer might come into your heart, you know it didn't originate with you. I've gotten answers to prayers that were NOT the answer I wanted, but they were right and even though I didn't want it to be right, I knew from God that it was right. You will never really know unless you have the faith to try it yourself.

Christ said by their fruits ye shall know them, and the scriptures tell us plainly what the fruits of the spirit of God are. Why give us this if we are to ignore it? We can not create the fruits of the spirit of God , and Satan can't bestow them either since he doesn't have them himself. Why doubt God's promise to answer us, or think He is too weak to answer us clearly?

We need to be cautious U Girl the Bible is clear on that

It is written in Matthew 7... 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are revening wolves.

Speaking specifically of the "Last Days" Matthew in chapter 24 warns...
24:11 And MANY false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive MANY. BR>24 For there shall arise false 'Christs', and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that if (it were) possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy Name? And in the Thy Name have cast out Devils? And in thy Name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mark 13:22 For false christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Moses in Deuteronomy also warns about, NOT the signs and wonders, but the "teaching" of false prophets.
13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

So how do we know for sure Girl?? Scripture says the heart is deceitful ..scripture says that could could be so convincing that even the elect might be deceived..So how do we know for sure? The Bible tells us this

God said: "And if thou say in thine heart, how shall we know the word which the LORD hath NOT spoken? When a PROPHET SPEAKETH IN THE NAME OF THE LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath NOT spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptyously: thou shalt no be afraid of him," (Deuteronomy 18:21-22).

Jeremiah 28:9 says: "The prophet who prophesieth of peace, WHEN THE WORD OF THE PROPHET SHALL COME TO PASS, THEN SHALL THE PROPHET BE KNOWN, THAT THE LORD HATH TRULY SENT HIM."

U Girl The Bible never says to test a prophet by prayer, but by his message. Deuteronomy 13 warns that a prophet must teach correctly about God. Chapter 18 tells us the prophet's prophecies must come to pass. Paul tells us in Galatians 1:8-9 that even angels can appear with a wrong message. We are to compare the message with the teachings of the apostles. In Acts 17:10-12, when Paul went to Berea to proclaim Jesus as the Messiah to the Jews, we read "these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed..." Note, Paul did not tell them to go home and pray about it. They were praised for searching the scriptures, in other words, testing the message to see if it agreed with the prophecies of the Messiah.

On following James 1:5. That verse is for wisdom during times of temptation and persecution, not for knowledge or testing a prophet. He goes on to warn in Chapter 4, verse 3, about those who pray (and we assume it was in Jesus name) for the wrong things--"Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss..." This verse shows our own desires or misdirected ideas can play a part in the answer. If someone claimed God said we should rob a bank and give the money to the poor, would we need to pray about it?

We need always to test all prophecy to the only sure word..the Bible.

If a "prophet" EVER fails or is in error..or if his prophecy contradicts the Bible he is a false prophet.

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