Posted on 04/16/2002 1:47:05 AM PDT by antidemocommie
Now, someone is telling me there is more revelation from God, but it contradicts His previous revelation. What am I to do with that especially in light of these warnings?
And I will echo Grig's answer above, there is a difference in the feeling that I have received in answers to prayer to know different things (if there is a living prophet today and his teachings are true), than something I want to happen and wish that feeling. And I truly can't explain the feeling, other than 'a pricking in my heart'.
Huh?? You do know that a red heifer is simply a cow with an unspotted reddish coat. They do exist, but they are rare.
If you meant that if you believed a red hiefer means the end of the world, you'll believe in anything. Well I'm not sure who exactly is saying that. All these thread on FR seem to be written by people intent on mocking that religious view. Maybe I missed it, but I have not seen a credible religious source which said that this calf's birth meant that the rapture or temple rebuilding was imminent.
UG did you even read what I wrote? Your church has a changing Doctrine..one prophet trumps another..That can not be according to the Bible..A prophet can NEVER error , and God never changes
Well, first I would say stop using a false premise in your deductions. Second, learn the differnece between somthing contradicting a previous revelation, and something contradicting your understanding of a previous revelation, and third, don't ignore God's promise to answer prayers.
That's not how I see it, I see it applying to anytime you feel you 'lack wisdom' in something, wether it be in dicerning truth from error, planning your career, whatever. Verse 1-4 form a complete thought, verse 5 seems to me the start of a new topic.
He goes on to warn in Chapter 4, verse 3, about those who pray (and we assume it was in Jesus name) for the wrong things--"Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss..." This verse shows our own desires or misdirected ideas can play a part in the answer.
Now that just doesn't make any sense to me at all. They asked for the wrong things and DIDN'T get what they asked for because it was the wrong thing to want. If their own desires were playing a part, they would have gotten an answer confirming the wrong thing they wanted, the example shows the process works even when you 'ask amiss'.
If someone claimed God said we should rob a bank and give the money to the poor, would we need to pray about it?
God has commanded the destruction of whole cities, and the death of every person in them, he commanded Abraham to conduct a human sacrifice of his own son. I don't think it's wise to decide ahead of time what God will and won't ask a person to do. Now if God has something he wants me to do, he will either tell it to me himself, or through one of his chosen servants (my Bishop, Stake President, the Prophet etc.). His house is a house of order, so if some person with no calling to preside over me says they have a message from God for me, I right away know they are not legit. As for the things God's servants do tell us to do, we already have a responsibility to pray about it and gain a personal knowledge that what they say is right.
Could you agree with the following?
1) A true prophet does not lie. His predictions will be fulfilled. (Jer. 28:9, "But the prophet who prophesies peace will be recognized as one truly sent by the LORD only if his prediction comes true.")
2) A true prophet prophesies in the name of the Lord, not in his own name. (2 Pet. 1:21, "For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.")
3) A true prophet does not give his own private interpretation of prophecy. (2 Pet. 1:20, "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.")
4) A true prophet points out the sins and transgressions of the people against God. (Isa. 58:1, "Shout it aloud, do not hold back. Raise your voice like a trumpet. Declare to my people their rebellion and to the house of Jacob their sins.)
5) A true prophet is to warn the people of God's coming judgment. (Examples of judgment such as portrayed in Isa. 24:20, "The earth reels like a drunkard, it sways like a hut in the wind; so heavy upon it is the guilt of its rebellion that it falls --never to rise again." and Rev. 14:6, 7, "Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth --to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, 'Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.'").
6) A true prophet edifies the church, counsels and advises it in religious matters. (1 Cor. 14:3, 4, "But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.")
7) A true prophet's words will be in absolute harmony with the words of the prophets that have preceded him. (Isa. 8:20, "To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.")
8) A true prophet recognizes the incarnation of Jesus Christ. (1 John 4:1-3, "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.")
9) A true prophet can be recognized by the results of his work. (Matt. 7:16-20, "By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.")
10) A true prophet acts in accordance with the will and approval of God. (Deut. 18:19, "If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.")
Deut. 18:15-22. [Moses said to his people] "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. . . . The LORD said to me: 'What they say is good. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.' You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?' If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him."
Isaiah 8:19-22, "When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn. Distressed and hungry, they will roam through the land; when they are famished, they will become enraged and, looking upward, will curse their king and their God. Then they will look toward the earth and see only distress and darkness and fearful gloom, and they will be thrust into utter darkness."
It takes wisdom to discern. God wants us to know what is right, he wants us to be able to tell truth from the subtle lies Satan will use. Again you show, and I can only think that you intend it to be so, that you think a perons should rely only on man's understanding. I just can not see any wisdom, justice or mercy in such an approach, so how can I belive that it's what a wise, just and merciful God wants?
That doesn't mean we say you shouldn't read and study the scriptures, we say that is just the start of the process, not the end.
When you quote a scriptuture we can agree what the text of the verse is, but when it come to the meaning of that text we often hold opposing views. It isn't that there is only one way the Bible can be viewed, your view on the scriptures is self-consistant, but so is my view even though it conflicts with yours.
That is as far as man's understanding can go, several differeing, but self-consistant views, and who is to say any one of them is the correct view and actuall truth if they are not a prophet of God acting in the name of the Lord?
The only thing men can offer is an opinion. Your whole list is a list of verses combined with your opinion of what they mean, and if you can't understand where the text ends and your opinion begins, or that other opinions can have validity too, then it is a great big waste of time to proceed further.
Haven't we gone through this a few times before, don't we always wind up right back at this very point? It's very refreshing to talk with someone who doesn't resort to the kind of dishonest attacks that are the norm among our critics, and I would like to continue, but I need to see that you are trying to understand our POV.
Quoting a verse and giving your opinion of what it means only tells me what your opinion of it is. It doesn't prove anything other than that to me. It's not like I've never read the Bible or haven't heard the very same argument before, it's just that we disagree with your opinion of what it means, and that in and of itself is not proof that you (or I) are right, only that we are different.
I totally agree with you.
It is written in Matthew 7... 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are revening wolves.
Speaking specifically of the "Last Days" Matthew in chapter 24 warns... 24:11 And MANY false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive MANY. BR>24 For there shall arise false 'Christs', and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that if (it were) possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Matthew. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy Name? And in the Thy Name have cast out Devils? And in thy Name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mark 13:22 For false christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Moses in Deuteronomy also warns about, NOT the signs and wonders, but the "teaching" of false prophets. 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
So far, so good.
So how do we know for sure Girl?? Scripture says the heart is deceitful ..scripture says that could could be so convincing that even the elect might be deceived..So how do we know for sure? The Bible tells us this
Jeremiah 29:12&13 says 'Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Also from Matthew 6:8 says 'Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
From Luke it says (Luke 11:9&10) And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
And how do we ask? Through prayer. I fully believe that if I ask Heavenly Father, I will receive an answer. Does He just give answers or help if someone is ill. How can He pick and choose what prayers to answer? I don't mean to be flippant, but He won't answer my prayers asking if a certain principle of the gospel is true, a certain passage of scripture is true, or if there is a living prophet on the earth today?
God said: "And if thou say in thine heart, how shall we know the word which the LORD hath NOT spoken? When a PROPHET SPEAKETH IN THE NAME OF THE LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath NOT spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptyously: thou shalt no be afraid of him," (Deuteronomy 18:21-22).
Jeremiah 28:9 says: "The prophet who prophesieth of peace, WHEN THE WORD OF THE PROPHET SHALL COME TO PASS, THEN SHALL THE PROPHET BE KNOWN, THAT THE LORD HATH TRULY SENT HIM."
U Girl The Bible never says to test a prophet by prayer, but by his message. Deuteronomy 13 warns that a prophet must teach correctly about God. Chapter 18 tells us the prophet's prophecies must come to pass. Paul tells us in Galatians 1:8-9 that even angels can appear with a wrong message. We are to compare the message with the teachings of the apostles. In Acts 17:10-12, when Paul went to Berea to proclaim Jesus as the Messiah to the Jews, we read "these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed..." Note, Paul did not tell them to go home and pray about it. They were praised for searching the scriptures, in other words, testing the message to see if it agreed with the prophecies of the Messiah.
Acts 2:10 says ' Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?' What does 'pricking of the heart' mean to you? To me it means that the Holy Ghost bore witness to the people on the day of Pentecost. And I firmly believe those people were praying to know the truth, for that is how the Holy Ghost works. We have to ask, and the communication with God is through prayer.
On following James 1:5. That verse is for wisdom during times of temptation and persecution, not for knowledge or testing a prophet. He goes on to warn in Chapter 4, verse 3, about those who pray (and we assume it was in Jesus name) for the wrong things--"Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss..." This verse shows our own desires or misdirected ideas can play a part in the answer. If someone claimed God said we should rob a bank and give the money to the poor, would we need to pray about it?
But if we ask for something that is amiss, and it isn't given to us or fulfilled, wouldn't our heart and our desires deceive us into believing that we had indeed received the answer we wanted? And it would depend who told me to rob a bank and give the money to the poor. God has told his prophets and people to do things at times that are expressly forbidden at other times. And yes, I would pray about it if it came from someone in priesthood authority over me (my bishop, stake president, etc.) But it has been said that God will not allow the prophets (latter-day) to lead the church astray, that he will smite them before he allows that to happen.
We need always to test all prophecy to the only sure word..the Bible.
If a "prophet" EVER fails or is in error..or if his prophecy contradicts the Bible he is a false prophet.
True enough. God is on his throne, and we're on our knees at the Mercy Seat. ;)
Joseph Smith's testimony has been offered as evidence that God called himto be a prophet
The Bible calls for more specific evidence. "But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." Deut. 18:20-22
The biblical test for a prophet is not three strikes and you're out. It's not even one strike and you're out. The biblical test for a prophet is one strike and you're dead.
The prophecy that is sometimes used as a supreme example is D&C 87, Dec. 25, 1832. "Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls; and the time will come that war will be poured out on all nations beginning at this place. For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call upon other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations."
Thirty years later, South Carolina rebelled, others followed the lead, and the bloodiest chapter of American history was written. Today, taken out of context, this is an impressive prophecy. Thirty years before the Civil War, it was not so impressive.
In July 1832, Congress passed a tariff which South Carolina resisted, declaring it null and void. This was early enough in American history for the states rights ideals under the Articles of Confederation, to be still alive. South Carolina thought the state should have the right to overrule the federal government. Pres. Jackson and Congress disagreed. The nation anxiously watched what was happening. War was expected.
History of the Church, vol. 1 p. 301 gives the context for this revelation. Just before including what became D&C 87, HC records that "...the United States, amid all her pomp and greatness, was threatened with dissolution. The people of SC, in convention assembled (in Nov.), passed ordinances declaring their state a free and independent nation..."
South Carolina seceded from the union in Nov. 1832, a month before this prophecy. Most of the things in the so-called Civil War prophecy which had already happened or were already expected were accurately repeated. The details which had not yet happened and were not yet expected were consistently wrong. The Southern States did not need defense against other nations. Other nations did not become involved in the war and war was not poured out on all nations beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina.
South Caroline did not secede from the Union until 1860. In 1832, they advocated the doctrine of "nullification," arguing that a state could nullify federal laws or taxes that they ruled to be unconstitutional. If there was federal resistance, then South Carolina said they could leave the Union. President Andrew Jackson argued against their position. What other historian foresaw the Civil War in the 1830's 40s, 50s, etc?
Beginning in the 1830s, LDS missionaries carried manuscript copies of the above revelation with in their missionary journeys, and "frequently read it to their congregations in various parts of the United States" (Roberts, p. 315). The entire revelation was printed in 1851 in Liverpool, England, in a pamphlet entitled, "The Pearl of Great Price." This was a decade before the first shot of the Civil War on April 12, 1861. Thus, the prediction was made 28 years before its fulfillment, and was printed and circulated in England and in the United States at least ten years before. And everywhere the missionaries read the prophecy, they were called Mormon humbugs and laughed at, and asked when this prophecy would be fulfilled. This was after 1832 when South Carolina was chafing about some of the federal laws they didn't agree with. In fact, there were members of the Church who were so shaken by the "ridiculous" nature of Joseph's civil war prophecy that they left the Church, rejecting him as a false prophet.
I think we can agree with the following five parts of the prophecy, and the sixth statement, well I will get to that one.
1. The war would begin with the rebellion of South Carolina.
True
2. It would cause the death and misery of many souls.
True
3. The Southern States would be divided against the Northern States.
True
4. The Southern States would call upon other nations for assistance, even upon the nation of Great Britain.
True
5. Great Britain would call upon other nations for assistance.
True
6. War would eventually be poured out upon all nations.
True. This one relies upon the word eventually. War HAS been poured out upon all nations. After the Civil War, international intrigues and wars grew to increasing severity, with ghastly international scenes of horror during World War I and World War II, with dozens of other wars having been fought and going on at the moment. War has always been on the earth, but the scale of destruction since the Civil War has grown sharply, and war in the past century has become increasingly multinational rather than bilateral. Truly, war has been poured out on all nations.
Also from this website A War Against the Critics of Joseph Smith's Civil War Prophecy The Lord's words were definite in predicting wars "beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina"; and declared further: "And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place." The great World War, 1914-1918, embroiled, directly or indirectly, every nation of the earth; and recovery from the effects of that stupendous conflict is beyond the horizon of human vision. Nations have been dismembered or destroyed; thrones have fallen; kingly crowns have lost all value beyond the market price of their gold and jewels; and, withal, new units of government have been created, and nations have sprung into existence, literally born in a day. The very elements are in anger, and what we call natural phenomena are surpassing in destructive fury all records made by man; and verily the end is not reached. The word of the Lord through His prophet, Joseph Smith, has never been revoked: "And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations."
Do reread the 14th chapter of the Revelation to St. John--those who receive the mark by the description given in Holy Scripture are damned. Since only an inability to accept God's grace could make damnation certain, my little fantasy presents a way by which a "mark" could leave the one who accepts it unable to repent of worshiping the beast in order to accept God's grace. Until the endtimes show what exactly is meant by the obscure passages of the Revelation, we must be on our guard and regard all speculations about the content as just that--speculations. My little tale, though, should serve as a warning, a warning against taking the Revelation at too surface a level (the "mark" in the "Left Behind" series is feeble), and against giving control of our minds or bodies to anything which is not of God (because there is a reciprocal action on our soul).
Until you read the Book of Mormon, and prayed on it, and any other you want to of our work you want to comment on, it is only the right thing to do if you harbor such contempt for our doctrines
Once you lived as a LDS for 6 mos., than tell me how of ungodly we are from your life you lead as a LDS.
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