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1 posted on 12/21/2001 5:11:00 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
Early Christians hid the origins of the Bethlehem star

I wonder if anyone has tried to teach Chown and Molnar how to reason. After succeeding in this and after getting them some basic education in religious history, they may be able to see what an absurd title this is. The fact is that the "wise men" from the "East" following the "star" (at least two years after the birth) has always been taken to be something intimately related to astrology, the actual celestial phenomenon notwithstanding. This goes back to within the lifetime of contemporaries of Jesus who wrote about it. You can't get Christians any earlier than that.
2 posted on 12/21/2001 5:27:33 AM PST by aruanan
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To: blam
"I take Molnar's work quite seriously," says Owen Gingerich, a historian of astronomy at Harvard University. "Anything he comes up with along these lines has to be considered as being very likely correct."

Really!! I mean goodness forbid that the Creator of the universe just put a star there to announce the birth of His Son into the world. Everyone knows that God has to fit into our little box of understanding else he isn't really God, now is he? < /sarcasm>

3 posted on 12/21/2001 5:27:48 AM PST by billbears
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To: blam
I've heard on and off that one theory is that the Star was a triple conjunction of Mars, Jupiter and Saturn in the constellation Pisces in or around 4 B.C.
4 posted on 12/21/2001 5:41:43 AM PST by abandon
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To: blam
Molnar believed that Roman astrologers would have interpreted such an event as signifying the birth of a divine king in Judea.

This statement is kind of silly. I mean, a bunch of guys in Rome who don't really think that Judea is any more or less important than any other conquered land see an obscure atrological event and think "Oh, this must mean the birth of a kind in Judea". Hardly.

9 posted on 12/21/2001 5:50:15 AM PST by Rodney King
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To: blam
Science ALWAYS points to the Creator! God's truth exists for all things and all people. Everything in the universe is subject to this truth. Science will never disprove the exisitence of its Creator - the great uncaused cause, the prime mover, the intelligent designer, the only One who has made something out of nothing.

Atheism makes no rational sense. Science can never prove it - nor even hint at it. Whereas the more we learn about our universe from science the more rational the notion of God becomes. Universes do not just happen.

10 posted on 12/21/2001 5:50:46 AM PST by Notwithstanding
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To: blam
Why would "roman astrologers" come from "the east"?

I saw a special the other night that had a more plausible story, and which I've heard before.

In the year 7 B.C., Jupiter, Saturn and Mars aligned against a background constellation that was considered to be Israel. Jupiter represented a king, Saturn a son. I forget what Mars represented. Anyway, the "magi" or astrologers understood this to mean that a son was to be born to a king in the nation of Israel. In other words, a new king was to be born in Israel.

So the magi headed west to the capital of Israel and asked where the new king was to be born. The Jews explain that the messiah was to be born in Bethlehem. The symbolism is very interesting considering that non-Jews (gentiles) recognize the King of Israel while the Jews (or at least a lot of them) do not.

15 posted on 12/21/2001 6:03:16 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: blam
"Christmas star? That ain't the freakin' Christmas star. It 's the light from the sewage treatment plant!"

What movie is this from? Bump...
22 posted on 12/21/2001 7:15:20 AM PST by thefactor
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To: blam
You have hit on one of the things that sets my mind to musing about things that I can't prove but have a real "feeling" about.

Five hundred years before the birth of Christ, Daniel the prophet was taken captive to Babylon, he was evenutally such a hit there with the king that he was allowed into a very closed sect of astronomers in which no foreigner had ever been allowed to be a member of called the Magi, according to some accounts. Babylon was to the East and the Three Kings of the East being Magi would most likely have been from Babylon.

It makes me wonder if Daniel told them to look for an astronomical event that would mark the birth of Christ and maybe, perhaps, just guessing, God began to prepare for his Son a stake of Frankincense, Murr, and Gold, to tide him over in Egypt until he could return to Israel, that began to be collected for Jesus 500 years before he was born in the flesh.

In any case Jesus himself said in Luke 21:25 "There shall be signs in the sun and in the moon and in the stars; and upon the earth, distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring."

Looks like we are in for a universal shake up, where stars appear to fall, the earth reels to and fro on it's axis like a drunkard, someday man will really be living in interesting times.

26 posted on 12/21/2001 8:20:30 AM PST by MissAmericanPie
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research later bump
46 posted on 12/21/2001 9:49:38 AM PST by packrat01
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To: blam
As a Jew, I've always found the idea of astrologers from the East following a sign to the Jewish messiah to be an odd one.

There shall not be found among you
any one that makes his son or his daughter to pass through the fire,
or that uses divination or sorcery,
or an observer of signs, or a witch, (Deuteronomy 8:10)

Thus says the LORD: "Learn not the way of the nations,
nor be concerned over the signs of the heavens
because the nations are dismayed at them,
for the customs of the peoples are false. (Jeremiah 10:2-3)

For thou hast rejected thy people,
the house of Jacob,
because they are full of diviners from the east
and of soothsayers like the Philistines,
and they strike hands with foreigners.
Their land is filled with silver and gold,
and there is no end to their treasures (Isaiah 2:6-7)

55 posted on 12/21/2001 10:08:08 AM PST by malakhi
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To: blam
an eclipse of Jupiter by the Moon

There was an occultation of Saturn by the moon just a couple of weeks ago. My astrologer is vague on the meaning of this. Perhaps I don't pay her enough.

57 posted on 12/21/2001 10:13:03 AM PST by RightWhale
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To: blam
bttt
60 posted on 12/21/2001 10:18:49 AM PST by Don Myers
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To: blam
xmas bump and mark
65 posted on 12/21/2001 10:30:19 AM PST by VRWC_minion
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To: blam
I have a picture of a coin at home commemorating the event. The coin is 2000 years old.
73 posted on 12/21/2001 11:33:29 AM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: GretchenEE
bump for interesting thread.
79 posted on 12/21/2001 4:08:58 PM PST by woollyone
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To: blam
The confusion comes from the multiple uses of the word "star." What really happened was a Roman Rock Concert that was touring the middle east stopped for a while in Bethelem. The "star" was lead rock singer Lapidus. The wise men were groupies. The frankincense was really just some good pot.
83 posted on 12/22/2001 12:54:15 AM PST by pcl
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To: blam
BTTT
97 posted on 12/22/2001 1:24:48 PM PST by Fiddlstix
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To: blam; FairOpinion; Ernest_at_the_Beach; SunkenCiv; 24Karet; 3AngelaD; 4ConservativeJustices; ...
Thanks Blam for this nearly three year old topic (originally www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3c2343176050.htm? the URL has been converted on the fly to this one). This seems to be the earliest such FR topic, obviously pertains to ancient history, to astronomy, to archaeoastronomy, anthropology, and a raft of other specialties. Plus I've got some stuff to post in here.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on, off, or alter the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
The GGG Digest
-- Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

135 posted on 11/28/2004 9:50:45 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("All I have seen teaches me trust the Creator for all I have not seen." -- Emerson)
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Check the GGG homepage (linked below, or in my previous post) for other pertinent topics. Did not ping everyone for each of them. My apologies for the spurt of activity during the past half hour, that's not usual, because I'm lazy.

FR Lexicon·Posting Guidelines·Excerpt, or Link only?·Ultimate Sidebar Management·Headlines
PDF to HTML translation·Translation page·Wayback Machine·My Links·FreeMail Me
Gods, Graves, Glyphs topic·and group·Books, Magazines, Movies, Music


136 posted on 11/28/2004 9:56:02 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("All I have seen teaches me trust the Creator for all I have not seen." -- Emerson)
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The local paper once had an article on another supposed astronomical connection with the Star of the East found in the Book of Matthew. Deborah Haarsma, a professor at Calvin College, noted that Molnar's book of 1991 attributes the phenomenon to Jupiter. Here's an old link:
Coin May Link Star of Bethlehem to King of Planets
by Henry Fountain
The Star of Bethlehem has been called many things by many people: a comet, a conjunction of planets, a supernova, a miracle, a myth. With just one biblical account, in the book of Matthew, of the star and how it caused the wise men to come to Judea in search of the newborn Jesus, exactly what it was, if indeed it was anything at all, remains an open question.

Dr. Michael R. Molnar, an astronomer and physicist and former teacher at Rutgers University, proposes that the star was the planet Jupiter, seen in the constellation Aries the ram on April 17, 6 B.C. A Roman coin, which Dr. Molnar bought for $50 at a New York show for his collection, was minted in Syria around A.D. 6. It showed Aries looking back over his shoulder at a star. The Romans, he learned, annexed Judea in A.D. 6, and Aries first appeared on Roman coins in that year. That told him that Aries was a symbol for Judea, a fact confirmed by reading Ptolemy.

Dr. Jack Finegan, an emeritus professor at the Pacific School of Religion in Berkeley, Calif., and author of "The Handbook of Biblical Chronology," a standard reference on the subject, now puts Herod's death more likely at 1 B.C. John Mosley, program director at the Griffith Observatory in Los Angeles and an expert on the Star of Bethlehem, said that while it may never be possible to know what the star was, "when Herod died was an actual event and should be knowable." And if Herod died in 1 B.C., he added, "you can't stretch the birth of Jesus back to 6 or 7 B.C."
Others have made the connection with Aries. Some have pointed to a nova which seems more likely to me. Bright Jupiter is in the sky at least as often as not. The presence of Jupiter in Aries wouldn't have heralded the beginning of an astrological "age". There are no astronomical or astrological clues in Matthew, and this Aries connection is just a supposition. The Romans may have commemorated their conquest by minting coins showing Aries fleeing in vain. A portent of Jupiter in Aries would have looked pretty good in retrospect to the Romans.

There's no relationship between the three wise men or kings of the book of Matthew and any known annal or archive of any kind outside of the New Testament. Trying to come to a definite conclusion about what these three must have been seeing may be futile and perhaps foolhardy.
Searching for the Star of Bethlehem
by Ned Rozell
Alaska Science Forum
December 12, 1996
In 5 BC, Chinese sky watchers saw a "broom-star," a comet with a tail that seemed to sweep the sky. Colin Humphreys, a researcher at the University of Cambridge in England, thinks it was this celestial fireball, which probably looked much like Comet Hyakutake, that guided the three wise men on their journey. The Chinese observers saw the comet for 70 days, plenty of time for the wise men to reach Jerusalem from their homes in Persia, Humphreys claims. Matthew's description of the star of Bethlehem, "lo, the star, which they had seen in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was," could easily describe a moving comet... Henbest suggests Matthew could have made up the tale of the star to enliven the story. Or maybe the guiding star was a miracle, the result of divine intervention. The only sure bet is the origin of the star will remain a mystery for many Christmases to come.

137 posted on 11/28/2004 10:10:30 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("All I have seen teaches me trust the Creator for all I have not seen." -- Emerson)
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