Obama's citizenship

1952 Immigration and Nationality Act, Title III, Chapter 3 ^

[DavidFarrar]

I have recently been bringing this debate over Obama's U.S. citizenship over at Talking Points Memo. Needles to say, I have received some heat for my efforts. But I have received an interesting response. One that I have been unable to get around. I hope I can find some answers here.

[BP2]

For the record, for newbies who are lurking on this thread, THIS is the commonly-accepted definition of
Natural Born Citizen, from the same book that was the FIRST book purchased for the US Senate, in
1793 -- the Law of Nations:

[MHGinTN]

Correct on two accounts:

1) there is no modern definition of what 'natural born citizen' means (though as you rightly pointed out, that is not a factor since we have no legitimate evidence of where the affirmative action feraud was born);

2) the Senate resolution was non-binding and as such was not a law and could not confer that which is in need of Constitutional regulation, so it is an astonishingly overlooked issue that the Senate would go to such trouble to address specifically the issue of 'natural born citizenship'.

It cannot be emphasized enough that the thing claimed by the White House Press Secretary to be a CoLB sent from the state of Hawaii to Barry and displayed on the Internet as his 'proof' has been deemed in a lawsuit over California delegates to be unacceptable as proof of anything since it is likely not an authemtic document, and this proclamation by a retired FBI documents expert in the Keyes case.

[thecodont]

"The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens."

This is exactly what I was taught in high school, and that no one but a natural-born citizen, as defined above, could be President.

The Law of Nations*, Emmerich de Vattel

* Available at Amazon.com.
The Law of Nations

[Beckwith]

the Hawaii office of Vital Records does NOT have his ONLY copy of the “long form” birth certificate.

From "Dreams..." -- page 26, last paragraph:

"I discovered this article, folded away among my birth certificate and old vaccination forms, when I was in high school. It's a short piece, with a photograph of him. No mention is made of my mother or me, and I'm left to wonder whether the omission was intentional on my father's part, in anticipation of his long departure. Perhaps the reporter failed to ask personal questions, intimidated by my father's imperious manner; or perhaps it was an editorial decision, not part of the simple story that they were looking for. I wonder, too, whether the omission caused a fight between my parents."

This paragraph exists in "Dreams from My Father." It is proof that Obama's birth certificate exists, that his grandmother had a copy, and that he's seen it. So he knows what's on it, and whatever it is -- or isn't -- it's the reason he is fighting its release so ferociously.

Undoubtedly, this knowledge provided the motivation for the ransacking of his grandmother Dunham's apartment within hours of her death. He was looking for this document before it fell into the "wrong" hands.

[Beckwith]

So, if your friend is correct, McCain is not natual born either.

That, as an attorney practicing in the federal courts system, is her opinion.

There is no such thing as an "Admiral" exception.

I wrote that a broad interpretation of the "AMBASSADOR" exception might conclude that McCain's father was acting in an ambassadorial position.

When I was in the US Army, overseas, we were often reminded that we were serving as ambassadors of the United States.

Pure speculation, on my part.

[Non-Sequitur]

So Louisana isn’t part of the US anymore??

Scroll up a ways. The claim is made that to be a Natural Born Citizen you must: (1) be born in the U.S. mainland, and (2) be born to 2 American citizen parents. Neither of Jindal's parents were citizens when he was born.

[Polarik]

Whoever published the fraudulent document is in jeopardy under the law.

That's what I've been saying all along, and none of the lawyers in these eligibility suits wanted to take that route as I suggested.

IMHO, all of these eligibility lawsuits demanding that Obama release his long-form birth certificate will fail.

The suits brought by Berg & Taitz have taken a shotgun approach where a rifle is needed. They have listed every possible scenario as to why Obama is not a natural-born citizen -- doing so invites legal attacks on the incredulous ones to the detriment of the most likely scenario.

There aren't any ways to put a positive spin on forging a birth certificate -- not now since Gibbs attributes the online posting to Obama and his Administration. They were so darn smug by thinking that Factcheck was going to cover their asses when people started questioning the authenticity of the online COLB.

To Factcheck's credit, they did a bang-up job of lying and covering up a crime. They maintained their veneer of respectability and impartiality from the PResident on down to the person in the street. They never expected anyone would expose them as a partner in crime.

They were wrong.

If Factcheck gets taken down, guess who goes with them.

[chaosagent]

So Louisana isn’t part of the US anymore??

Scroll up a ways. The claim is made that to be a Natural Born Citizen you must: (1) be born in the U.S. mainland, and (2) be born to 2 American citizen parents. Neither of Jindal’s parents were citizens when he was born.

---

I read that. That’s what the debate is about. I guess I should have included the /SARC tag. But based on the way my previous posts were going I would have thought it obvious.

What actually constitutes a ‘natural born citizen’. Based on which of the 3 scenarios I posted above you chose, a number of past presidential candidates are not ‘natural born’, including John McCain!

A little research online shows court rulings coming down on all 3 sides.

Again, if you go by what you posted above in this post, John McCain was not ‘natural born’.

????

[Non-Sequitur]

What actually constitutes a ‘natural born citizen’. Based on which of the 3 scenarios I posted above you chose, a number of past presidential candidates are not ‘natural born’, including John McCain!

What constitutes a natural born citizen? Per the law, the Constitution, and any number of Supreme Court cases it's someone who is born in the U.S. regardless of the nationality of the parents, with specific exceptions for children of diplomats, foreign heads of state, and enemy aliens held in the U.S during time of war. Or it is someone who, under certain specific circumstances, was born outside of the U.S. Simple as that.

[Plummz]

You need to stop spreading your America-hating lies. A natural-born citizen is someone born in the US to an American father, as per the understanding of the Framers.

[Non-Sequitur]

A natural-born citizen is someone born in the US to an American father, as per the understanding of the Framers.

Pity they didn't write that down somewhere, then maybe the law, the Constitution, and the Supreme Court would agree with you.

[Polarik]

Apparently, Obama’s COLB was Revised on November, 2001. Does anybody know what sort of “revisions” they are talking about?

The revisions were (1) a change to a new, computer-generated certificate form that automatically retrieves birth record data to populate the data fields on the form.

The other change was in the specific information that it now contained: basically, the bare minimum to legally establish date of birth (e.g., August 4, 1961), place of birth (e.g., Hawaii), and date filed (e.g., August 8, 1961).

The names and races of the parents are of secondary importance, at best, because the more important parental data is left out, such as citizenship status or immigration status, marital status, and length of residency.

On another hotly contested feature on Obama's COLB was the listing of his father's race as AFRICAN. From my phone conversations, I learned that the DOH has been appling the same race classification rules as does the Census for responses that fall outside of their pre-selected categories.

Thereis a category labeled, "Some other race,” and there's a line for the Census taker to record what the race responses provided by residents, which do include continents like Latin American or Central American and South American. Therefore, recording AFRICAN as Obama Sr's race would have been acceptable to Hawaii.

From what I've read, Hawaii started a major scam shortly after they became a state. Hawaii decided to "convert" all of their Asian immigrants into Hawaiian citizens by sending them short-form birth certificates. These new citizens would then make it possible for Hawaii to receive federal monies for the social services, health services, and educational services that they provided to this undocumented Asian population.

If this is true, and I have not seen anything to the contrary, Madelyn Dunham probably knew what Hawaii was doing, and may have "used the system" to help daughter Ann secure a birth certificate for African-born Barack.

If this scam were to be uncovered, imagine all of the grief that would befall Hawaii. For this reason, Hawaii has been tight-lipped about wjhere Obama was born, and refusing to release any other information from his original birth record.

[Plummz]

It was the common understanding at the time, in the reference books, etc. You can’t just make up definitions for words in the Constitution that you don’t like. This is akin to the anti-Americans who say “militia” means only the National Guard. The militia was and is every able-bodied free adult male.

Here are some other words not defined in the Constitution:

“the”
“navy”
“ten”
“days”
“two”
“seas”

None of these words are defined in the Constitution. They have and had meanings in their own right.

You don’t get to redefine words in order to twist the Constitution to conform with your anti-American ideals.

[Non-Sequitur]

You don’t get to redefine words in order to twist the Constitution to conform with your anti-American ideals.

But you can, is that it?

[Polarik]

Apparently, Obama’s COLB was Revised on November, 2001. Does anybody know what sort of “revisions” they are talking about?

The revisions were (1) a change to a new, computer-generated certificate form that automatically retrieves birth record data to populate the data fields on the form.

The other change was in the specific information that it now contained: basically, the bare minimum to legally establish date of birth (e.g., August 4, 1961), place of birth (e.g., Hawaii), and date filed (e.g., August 8, 1961).

The names and races of the parents are of secondary importance, at best, because the more important parental data is left out, such as citizenship status or immigration status, marital status, and length of residency.

On another hotly contested feature on Obama's COLB was the listing of his father's race as AFRICAN. From my phone conversations, I learned that the DOH has been appling the same race classification rules as does the Census for responses that fall outside of their pre-selected categories.

Thereis a category labeled, "Some other race,” and there's a line for the Census taker to record what the race responses provided by residents, which do include continents like Latin American or Central American and South American. Therefore, recording AFRICAN as Obama Sr's race would have been acceptable to Hawaii.

From what I've read, Hawaii started a major scam shortly after they became a state. Hawaii decided to "convert" all of their Asian immigrants into Hawaiian citizens by sending them short-form birth certificates. These new citizens would then make it possible for Hawaii to receive federal monies for the social services, health services, and educational services that they provided to this undocumented Asian population.

If this is true, and I have not seen anything to the contrary, Madelyn Dunham probably knew what Hawaii was doing, and may have "used the system" to help daughter Ann secure a birth certificate for African-born Barack.

If this scam were to be uncovered, imagine all of the grief that would befall Hawaii. For this reason, Hawaii has been tight-lipped about wjhere Obama was born, and refusing to release any other information from his original birth record.

[Cicero]

It’s been at least a year since I read the details, but I believe that there is a legal procedure for altering a COLB if, for example, you change your name. I think it requires a court order, but Obama could have arranged that easily enough through a Chicago judge, his legal place of residence, which I THINK would be accepted in Hawaii.

Similarly, I believe you could change “negro” to “African,” or even change the citizenship if you had the proper documentation to do it.

So, the original certificate of live birth remains unchanged, but COLBs can be updated if the proper procedures are followed. That’s my recollection of the rules.

[Neoliberalnot]

The reason the topic of birth certificates won’t go away, and is bubbling up in the media again - here is a clip that still holds true today, since Hawaii in 1961 did give out COLBs (certificates of live birth) to foreign born babies up to two years old and also since one needs two US citizen parents as well as to be born on US soil. Very well researched...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEnaAZrYqQI

This info and comments came from a high level law enforcement officer in Honolulu so I know it is genuine.

[MHGinTN]

The general rule is that when a state makes a legal change, the records of same must be filed along with the original papers in the state’s vault. This means that if Barry’s adopting dad in Indonesia changed his name or citizenship, the previous docuemtns would be held in state/national vault along with the revision data. This also means that if he in fact was an Indonesian citizen and came to the state of Hawaii to ‘restore’ his supposed U.S. citizenship, the paperwork from Indonesia would be copied in the Hawaiian vault storage. It also implies that if he was in fact born in another country (Kenya or Canada), when his mother or grandmother applied for Hawaiian registration the BC from this other country would be copied in the HI vaults. Barry may or may not be able to allow access to specific documents without allowing access to all documents, but there are two in HI state government who have stated they have seen ‘a’ BC in HI files, without saying where that BC was issued or if it is one applied for after the boy was born in another country.

[chaosagent]

What actually constitutes a ‘natural born citizen’.

Based on which of the 3 scenarios I posted above you chose, a number of past presidential candidates are not ‘natural born’, including John McCain!

---

What constitutes a natural born citizen? Per the law, the Constitution, and any number of Supreme Court cases it’s someone who is born in the U.S. regardless of the nationality of the parents, with specific exceptions for children of diplomats, foreign heads of state, and enemy aliens held in the U.S during time of war. Or it is someone who, under certain specific circumstances, was born outside of the U.S. Simple as that.

---

Look at the link in Post 51. And then Google ‘Natural Born Citizen”

There are court cases all over the place. Parents both citizens, born anywhere, Born in the US, parents don’t matter, and Parents must be citizens, born in the US.

And what are your ‘certain specific circumstances’?

[MHGinTN]

Non-Sequitur is operating on the assumption that there are only two forms of citizenship, naturalized or natural born. So when NS responds you must read between the lines ... NS doesn’t recognize anything special regarding natural born citizen, for the purposes of conflating the issues to fit his/her/its approach to illiciting reactions on the threads. This discussion is a source for personal amusement for Non-Sequitur, by his/her/its own admission on previous occasions.