Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Was the Bagram 747 Crash a Terrorist Drone/UAV Attack in the Runway Kill Zone (RKZ)?
Runway Kill Zone (blog) ^ | May 2, 2013 | 2branta

Posted on 05/02/2013 8:45:09 AM PDT by Seizethecarp

The horrific crash of a 747-400 at Bagram (here) has yet to be fully investigated and claims are already being made that it was a stall caused by a loose cargo that caused tail of the aircraft to drop and the nose to rise depriving the wings of lift.

Maybe.

The Bagram 747 crash has many similarities to the even more horrific crash of AWACS flight Yukla-27, (here) which was caused by the aircraft striking at least two Canada Geese in the Runway Kill Zone (RKZ) as discussed on an earlier post on this blog (here).

Terrorists familiar with the vulnerability of large jet airliners in the RKZ could produce a nearly identical or very similar crash profile to the Bagram event. They could do this by mining the Bagram runway with autonomous GPS-guided multi-copters placed exactly where they would collide with each jet turbine as the 747-400 passed through the RKZ of the Bagram runway.


TOPICS: Conspiracy; Government; Military/Veterans; Politics
KEYWORDS: adjustyourmeds; bagram747; blog; blogfail; blogpimp; blogpimper; blogpimping; blogpimpoffmeds; choochookachoo; coocooforcocoapuffs; dontleaveyourdayjob; drone; dumbblog; dumbestthreadever; epicblogfail; epicfail; fail; isthisajoke; joke; justdumb; kook; kookoo; loserblog; notevenclose; nut; nutbag; nutbagconspiracy; nuts; offyourmeds; planecrash; runwaykillzone; singlekook; somuchepicfail; somuchfail; somuchkook; stayathomekook; thorozinedrip; tinfoilhat; turnedmeintoanewt; uggghhh; unngghh; upyourmeds; wot
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-73 last
To: Seizethecarp
Whatever you think tinfoil boy...

51 posted on 05/02/2013 11:46:00 AM PDT by TSgt (More Scott Roeders and fewer Tillers and Gosnells)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: DCBryan1

“Mini copters hitting a 747 ain’t going to bring it down.”

Thanks for your comment. I appreciate real-world military related experience.

Your examples did not involve intentional ingestion of a drone by a high-bypass turbofan...a very delicate machine.

As posted up-thread, here, again is the link to the crash of a 747 freighter which was done in by a tiny kestrel bird:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/kalitta-revises-rto-training-after-747s-disastrous-post-v1-abort-329530/

“The aircraft experienced a stall in its inboard right-hand Pratt & Whitney JT9D engine after it ingested a kestrel during the take-off roll on 25 May last year.”

A single Canada Goose can take out a jet engine as seen with Captain Sully’s crash in the Hudson and with the AWACS Yukla-27 crash, and they weigh less and have softer parts than available cheap multi-copters.

Here is the accident report on the AWACS Yukla-27, which inspired my blog (please check the blog out when you get home!):

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19950922-0


52 posted on 05/02/2013 11:48:38 AM PDT by Seizethecarp ((Defend aircraft from "runway kill zone" mini-drone helicopter swarm attacks: www.runwaykillzone.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]

To: TSgt

“Whatever you think tinfoil boy...”

Hey! I proudly RESEMBLE that remark!

But so does the FBI:

Drone sighting over NYC has FBI on alert; craft came within 200 feet of Alitalia jet
http://pix11.com/2013/03/05/drone-sighting-near-jfk-has-fbi-on-alert/#axzz2N13RZpsR

The FBI has launched an investigation. The Joint Terror Task Force is also investigating.

PIX11 spoke with Martin Feely, supervisory special agent for the FBI, who said the bureau is taking this incident very seriously. Nothing has been ruled out.

Martin Feely, a supervisory special agent, said this incident was very unusual and they didn’t have any explanation for it.

“We’re concerned that in the future the public could be at risk for these kinds of incidents so we’re asking for the public’s assistance,” said Feely. “We know its the kind of thing that could be a threat to an aircraft in the future.”

Aviation expert Dan Rose said this could have had catastrophic consequences.

“Any time you have an object in the air that close to where planes are taking off, it’s an extreme danger..potentially having a mid-air collision,” said Rose.

FBI Investigating Report Of Possible Drone Spotted Near JFK
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/03/05/fbi-investigating-report-of-possible-drone-spotted-near-jfk/

Sean Hennessey is the CBS2 News reporter who covered the JFK story.

Al Yurman, former NTSB investigator:

“You take an object that weighs 20-25 pounds and it can do a lot of damage to a plane trying to land.

“If the object gets in the wrong place, like the engine or it happens to hit the windshield, depending on the weight, it could cause the plane to make an emergency landing.”

“Look no further than the 2009 ‘Miracle on the Hudson’ when a flock of geese got into the engines crippling an Airbus A320 forcing the pilot to make an amazing landing in the Hudson River.

“Something that small probably won’t show up.” (on the airport radar)

Lloyd Bennett Field (model aircraft field near JFK)


53 posted on 05/02/2013 12:00:06 PM PDT by Seizethecarp ((Defend aircraft from "runway kill zone" mini-drone helicopter swarm attacks: www.runwaykillzone.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 51 | View Replies]

To: Seizethecarp
I went to the US Secret Service in 2006 with this concept and they told me to “get my meds adjusted.”

No really, get your meds adjusted.
54 posted on 05/02/2013 12:09:41 PM PDT by TSgt (More Scott Roeders and fewer Tillers and Gosnells)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: Seizethecarp
You really think you're the first person to think of this, really?

Do you think it's appropriate to use Freerepublic to pimp your blog?

Are you on any psychotropic drugs?

I asked this Air Force research director whether I should keep this concept confidential and he said all of the elements are out there in the public so there was nothing secret about it.

Precisely, it is no secret and the only thing you're doing is giving ideas to people who might be over the edge. You might want to think about that and stop pimping your blog, go do it at DU, they'll eat it up over there.

55 posted on 05/02/2013 1:07:49 PM PDT by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: Seizethecarp
Your examples did not involve intentional ingestion of a drone by a high-bypass turbofan...a very delicate machine.

You do know that today's high bypass engines are made to contain a major failure of the engine? I seriously doubt a little quadrotor toy would destroy a 747's engine that would cause the plane to crash. It may need to be replaced or repaired but I'm betting it'll still have enough thrust to land safely and if you think you can hit all four engines, I don't think so.

You'd be better of doing what Sean Connery did in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade where he made a bunch of birds take off into the path of a German plane.

56 posted on 05/02/2013 1:14:16 PM PDT by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: Seizethecarp

You might want to read post 49 for content this time.


57 posted on 05/02/2013 1:15:38 PM PDT by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: Seizethecarp

Even before the video centered on the plane the 747 was already in mid stall.

Sure looks like a cargo shift accident to me...not that I have seen too many.

I have flown RC planes with the CG way too far aft...looks just like the video.


58 posted on 05/02/2013 1:58:46 PM PDT by hattend (Firearms and ammunition...the only growing industries under the Obama regime.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: mc5cents

“Check the National Air Cargo website.”

http://www.nationalaircargo.com/default.aspx

OK, it says:

“As of now, the cause of the accident is unknown.”

No mention of cargo shift...but:

I assume their lawyers would tell them to scrupulously avoid admitting responsibility for a cargo shift pending the final accident report.


59 posted on 05/02/2013 2:01:49 PM PDT by Seizethecarp ((Defend aircraft from "runway kill zone" mini-drone helicopter swarm attacks: www.runwaykillzone.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: I cannot think of a name
"My only point was I think the aircraft was entirely flyable, give sufficient altitude to recover."

Yeah, this is what has to suck -- IF the vector wasn't pure pilot error (unlikely, but you just can't tell from the vid), then it's a masterpiece of a recovery to put it down at three points, and you'd think karma would roll him a second chance; instead it's just controlled descent into terrain...

60 posted on 05/02/2013 2:18:06 PM PDT by StAnDeliver (Own it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Seizethecarp
“The aircraft experienced a stall in its inboard right-hand Pratt & Whitney JT9D engine after it ingested a kestrel during the take-off roll on 25 May last year.”

Sooo, what you're saying is, the looselimbs fired a kestrel? I think Jeff Foxworthy built a comedy routine around that one...

61 posted on 05/02/2013 2:45:53 PM PDT by StAnDeliver (Own it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: StAnDeliver

I happened to be on the ramp when a dogged-out 727 was being flown to desert storage. The crew decided they would do a VMC climb-out to send the old girl off in style (the number of ways this is a stupid idea in a 727 could not be listed in a lifetime).

Sure enough, it goes up like a rocket and the center engine starts barking (when doesn’t it?). The flight engineer knows whats going on and ignores it, but the co-pilot freaks out and goes for the throttles. As luck would have it, the captain had decided enough stupidity and was already starting to push the wheel forward.

After what looked like a half-a$$ed attempted wing over, the aircraft rotated and dove nose first. It disappeared behind a series of hills, but I guess the elevator input had already started to take effect and somehow it made it. I am sure the crew spent the rest of the flight looking for suitable cleaning materials.

Unless there is some overwhelming reason otherwise, an airplane’s path should always involve a lot more forward than up.


62 posted on 05/02/2013 2:47:30 PM PDT by I cannot think of a name
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: I cannot think of a name
I happened to be on the ramp when a dogged-out 727 was being flown to desert storage. The crew decided they would do a VMC climb-out to send the old girl off in style (the number of ways this is a stupid idea in a 727 could not be listed in a lifetime).

Please name a few as I thought the 727 was thought of as kind of a hotrod and got a few pilots in trouble. Also, what does VMC mean?

Sure enough, it goes up like a rocket and the center engine starts barking (when doesn’t it?). The flight engineer knows whats going on and ignores it, but the co-pilot freaks out and goes for the throttles. As luck would have it, the captain had decided enough stupidity and was already starting to push the wheel forward.

Does the 'barking' sound mean compressor stall? Or?

After what looked like a half-a$$ed attempted wing over, the aircraft rotated and dove nose first. It disappeared behind a series of hills, but I guess the elevator input had already started to take effect and somehow it made it. I am sure the crew spent the rest of the flight looking for suitable cleaning materials.

Sometimes God protects drunks and crazy pilots.

63 posted on 05/02/2013 3:14:04 PM PDT by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]

To: Lx

Properly flown the 727 is one of the safest aircraft ever. It’s fine going slow as long as you are at or above the published numbers. It will also bite you hard if you take a stall past stick pusher (which you are specifically prohibited from doing in the flight manual.)

VMC is the minimum control speed you can control the aircraft in the case of engine loss. No one is ever gets close to it willingly. The center engine was notorious for compressor stall. When the aircraft was first certified, Boeing hand selected engines for the center engine installation. Some engines just wouldn’t play there at all.


64 posted on 05/02/2013 3:45:04 PM PDT by I cannot think of a name
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 63 | View Replies]

To: Seizethecarp

The black box will have the engine telemetry so this can be proved or disproved easily


65 posted on 05/02/2013 8:25:41 PM PDT by tophat9000 (American is Barack Oaken)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: tophat9000

And the voice recorder will record what the crew thought was happening.


66 posted on 05/02/2013 8:30:06 PM PDT by Seizethecarp ((Defend aircraft from "runway kill zone" mini-drone helicopter swarm attacks: www.runwaykillzone.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: Yosemitest

ping...


67 posted on 05/03/2013 9:07:11 AM PDT by Seizethecarp ((Defend aircraft from "runway kill zone" mini-drone helicopter swarm attacks: www.runwaykillzone.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TalonDJ; Jim Robinson; Admin Moderator

“Loose lips sink ships.”

This is a serious charge, and one that I considered long and hard before going public with the exposure of the “V1-VR Runway Kill Zone.”

I kept it to myself for nearly six years after stumbling onto the concept in 2006, sharing it with the chief research officer of the Air Force and being told that I was the first one to bring it to their attention and did not object to me going public with it.

I asked myself how I would feel if terrorists destroyed a fully loaded passenger plane because the Runway Kill Zone vulnerability had not been defended against and the public had not been educated to be vigilant regarding drone activities near airports or near the POTUS.

After 9-11, how did the people who warned that unlocked cockpit doors would enable terrorists to turn airliners into flying suicide bombs capable of decapitating the US government? Would they have been called tinfoil, nutcase chicken-littles needlessly alarming themselves and the flying public? Absolutely. Now we should know better, OMO.

On 9-11, the passengers of only one of four jets counter-attacked the terrorists. They were “educated” by hearing over cellphones what could be in store for them and the nation. Better that they had been “educated” before 9-11 because passengers of ALL FOUR of the jets might have rebelled or better yet, locks would have been placed on cockpit doors.

I have concluded that it is patriotic to sound the alarm when a national security vulnerability is identified and to do whatever I can to educate the public and officials on how to identify a potential threat and to advocate for reasonable defensive measures.

Terrorists are not stupid, they are way ahead of the US government and the public in their use of creative opportunistic inexpensive asymmetric attacks...exactly like the opportunity presented every time a jetliner takes off.

If a fair-minded person spends a lot of time, as I have, on US government and defense-oriented public websites, every day new attack vectors that terrorists could exploit are discussed and war-gamed as to defenses. I believe it is obvious that discussion of the Runway Kill Zone is totally appropriate and does not violate “Loose lips sinks ships.”

Check out the former NTSB aviation security expert on the CBS NY affiliate immediately declaring the JFK drone event could be a terrorist attack and speculating that a drone could be directed into a jet engine achieving the same result as happened with Captain Sully (with video of the crash provided to the public) exactly as described on the Runway Kill Zone blog:

“FBI Investigating Report Of Possible Drone Spotted Near JFK”

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/03/05/fbi-investigating-report-of-possible-drone-spotted-near-jfk/

Sean Hennessey is the CBS2 News reporter who covered the JFK story.

Al Yurman, former NTSB investigator:

“You take an object that weighs 20-25 pounds and it can do a lot of damage to a plane trying to land.

“If the object gets in the wrong place, like the engine or it happens to hit the windshield, depending on the weight, it could cause the plane to make an emergency landing.”

“Look no further than the 2009 ‘Miracle on the Hudson’ when a flock of geese got into the engines crippling an Airbus A320 forcing the pilot to make an amazing landing in the Hudson River.

“Something that small probably won’t show up.” (on the airport radar)

Lloyd Bennett Field (model aircraft field near JFK)


68 posted on 05/03/2013 9:59:59 AM PDT by Seizethecarp ((Defend aircraft from "runway kill zone" mini-drone helicopter swarm attacks: www.runwaykillzone.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: Lx

“You really think you’re the first person to think of this, really?

“Do you think it’s appropriate to use Freerepublic to pimp your blog?”

Please take note of my comment copied to JR:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/3014940/posts?page=68#68


69 posted on 05/03/2013 11:30:36 AM PDT by Seizethecarp ((Defend aircraft from "runway kill zone" mini-drone helicopter swarm attacks: www.runwaykillzone.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | View Replies]

To: I cannot think of a name

Yes, that is what weight does. Your post said aerodynamic forces could not compensate for MOMENTUM.... that is a whole different beast.


70 posted on 05/03/2013 1:25:45 PM PDT by TalonDJ
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies]

To: Seizethecarp

First rule of flying after Vr/V2 — achieve & maintain stable flight; all else is secondary. After achieving a ground speed of 80 knots up to Vr, the only reason for rejecting the takeoff is a condition that affects flight safety, ie, engine out, fire, etc.

Based on published reports that the load shift was communicated to the flight deck soon after rotation, the Captain/PIC would take command of the a/c and become the PF. The PF’s job would be to stabilize the flight, which is incredibly difficult to do when the aircraft is rotating beyond the ability of your flight control surface (elevator aka horizontal stabilizer aka hstab aka stab) to counter.

The gear position, master caution, EGPWS alarms, etc. are all irrelevant until controlled flight has been reestablished. Simply put, if the aircraft isn’t flying, then you’re likely dead, no matter what alarms are ringing or what the gear or flap settings are.

Best guess at what happened in the cockpit is that the PF pushed the yoke forward when the aircraft rotated past the point where he commanded it to stop. When that failed to arrest the pitch up rotation, he likely hit the TO/GA button to get max thrust (assuming a de-rated takeoff) and pushed the yoke into the firewall.

In any case, airspeed bled off pretty quickly, then the left wing stalled. He managed to level the aircraft, but then the right wing stalled and the ship yawed to the right. At this point, the aircraft was doomed. They were below flying speed — it was simply falling with a bit of forward momentum. The nose drops a bit during the yaw, followed by wings level, but this isn’t an indication that the aircraft is flying — just that enough air was moving over the wings during the short descent that the ailerons were able to function.

As another poster stated; they had neither the speed, altitude or thrust (collectively, the energy state) to recover from the stall before impact.


71 posted on 05/03/2013 11:12:57 PM PDT by RickOSidhe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: RickOSidhe

Thanks for your expert pilot analysis! This does seem to be the most evident scenario, especially as there was no visible sign of engine malfunction (flames, sound of compressor stall, shedding engine and cowling parts).

The sequence of pilot responses matches very closely the pilot’s response during the 1995 AWACS Yukla 27 bird-strike event:

http://flightsafety.org/ap/ap_nov96.pdf

Please allow me to make a personal request. Would you be so kind as to read and assess for technical accuracy my theory on my blog that the zone between V1 and VR, however long that may last on the runway, is a potential terrorist runway kill zone? I am a retired CPA, not a pilot.

It is my theory that the V1-VR zone needs to be proactively protected from attacks by GPS guided UAV/drones targeting individual turbines. The linear path down the runway and distance from the airframe centerline of each engine (and thus the distance from the runway centerline) can be reliably predicted using GPS coordinates.

All this is explained in detail at this blog post:

http://runwaykillzone.com/2011/12/22/faq-the-v1-vr-terrorist-runway-kill-zone-rkz-frequently-asked-questions/

As I mentioned, the chief research officer of the Air Force thanked my for making him and presumably the Air Force aware of this vulnerability back in 2006, and he went out of his way to make sure that the Air Force One commander was aware as well.

Recently, it appears that terrorists may be trying to exploit a Landing Approach Kill Zone as discussed on my blog:

http://runwaykillzone.com/2013/05/02/was-the-droneuav-hovering-in-the-jfk-landing-approach-kill-zone-lakz-a-failed-terrorist-attack/

In case you missed it, here is the FR thread that I started do discuss drone at JFK which has some interesting discussion.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/3014942/posts?q=1&;page=1#1


72 posted on 05/04/2013 8:45:59 AM PDT by Seizethecarp ((Defend aircraft from "runway kill zone" mini-drone helicopter swarm attacks: www.runwaykillzone.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 71 | View Replies]

To: Old Sarge

ping...


73 posted on 05/04/2013 9:04:59 AM PDT by Seizethecarp ((Defend aircraft from "runway kill zone" mini-drone helicopter swarm attacks: www.runwaykillzone.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 72 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-73 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson