Posted on 02/26/2015 7:28:34 PM PST by marktwain
I was either in, or worked for, the U.S. Army for over 30 years. During that time I had some experience with what guards were issued for ammunition. My brother brought my attention to a video done about F-15s in Bitburg, Germany, in 1981, at the height of the cold war, only a few year before NATO won. It is titled "The Wing". In the video you can see the Tech Sergeant being issued magazines. He is issued four magazines, all have rounds in them. He makes sure his chamber is clear, and inserts one magazine. In the screen-shot (about 7:26 on the video) you can see the other three magazines in his left hand. They are clearly 30 round magazines for the M16 or variants.
If they were loaded with 28-29 rounds each, I would be pleasantly surprised. I was surprised to see that he received four magazines with rounds in them. It would not make sense to issue him four magazines with five rounds each, when he could be issued one magazine with 20 rounds.
The reason that my curiosity is aroused is that my experience has been far different. As this was a commercially produced video made in cooperation with the military, the number of magazines may have been exaggerated for dramatic effect, disinformation purposes, or operational security.
My first experience with ammunition issued to guards was in California, six years earlier than the video. I had been assigned extra duty as a military game warden on the Hunter Liggett Military Reservation. I was not issued a weapon, but carried my own, an Argentine Ballister Molina .45 that accepted Colt magazines. It was a decent pistol, and did not have the grip safety of the Colt 1911. My partner carried a model 19 Smith & Wesson .357. We both carried them fully loaded with extra ammunition.
We had been briefed about a potential threat. A tip had been received that elements of the Symbionese Liberation Army (SLA) were considering a raid on an Ammunition Supply Point (ASP) somewhere in California. We received a report of shots being fired behind the ASP, and took our Jeep to investigate.
We did not find anything. The way back around the ASP was mountainous and long, so we decided to short cut back toward the headquarters area through the ASP. The guard stopped us with a hand signal. We stopped. He pawed at his shirt pocket. We moved forward. He stopped us, and moved back the distance that we had moved forward. He pawed at his pocket; we moved forward. Everything was repeated. Finally, we got out of the Jeep, he made it be known that he needed to see ID. We tossed it to him. He wanted to maintain distance. After verification, he let us pass through the ASP.
I was curious about the pocket pawing, and asked about it. It turned out that the guards were issued one .45 magazine with five rounds in it, and it was to be kept buttoned in the shirt pocket. Very Barney Fife. Everyone that I talked to thought it was a stupid policy.
The next experience was in Panama, at the Rodman ASP, 1985-89. I do not think the guards there were Marines; they might have been Army, Air Force, or Navy. For some reason, Air Force comes to mind. They were allowed one magazine for their M16s. Trouble with Noriega was heating up prior to the U.S. Invasion (Operation Just Cause), after a drunken Noriega had declared war in a Panamanian Television program. It was not clear that he intended to declare war; but he clearly said that Panama was in a state of war with the United States.
At Rodman, the guard's issued magazine and five rounds were to be kept in a magazine pouch. If a guard did not have all five rounds at the end of his shift, the entire company was turned out to hunt for the missing round. Guards were confronted by armed poachers several times. One SOF member (almost certainly a SEAL) was killed by a poacher while training on a night patrol at Ft. Sherman, while I was there, but the policy did not change until the Marines took over security in the face of growing Noriega regime hostility.
There have been other instances in which U.S. military security personnel were not allowed to have loaded weapons, or allowed only limited ammunition in the face of a deadly threat. The bombing of the Marine Barracks in Lebanon in 1983 was one, others have been mentioned in the news.
I would like to know this: What experience did you have with ammunition issued to U.S. military forces on guard duty; and were you issued more than five rounds of ammunition?
©2015 by Dean Weingarten: Permission to share is granted when this notice is included.
Link to Gun Watch
No matter what the President says, the military can make their own decisions. I doubt seriously that Reagan gave an order relating to the number of rounds in a weapon.
If a General decides to not issue .50 cal rounds in order to avoid a possible bad optic, that doesn’t reflect on the president.
We spend too much time passing the buck in these scenarios.
I would wager the wives knew they didn't know, so they were open to learning (plus some fine motor control). Guys tend to think they know stuff and don't listen as well.
Performance driving school instructors have similar stories.
To believe knowledge and skill comes from a certain arrangements of chromosomes usually leads to bad outcomes.
That must be a Marine Corps tradition.
My son was in Security Forces at a submarine base one Christmas eve night. As said up thread, this was serious business.
They were posted as far from civilization as you could get and no one was ever crazy enough to get anywhere nearby. So they were surprised to see a figure approach. After the formalities he turned out to be the company commander.
"Did you men get cookies?"
"No sir. No cookies."
He said "Merry Christmas" and left. About a half hour later a harried cook appeared with hot coffee and a few dozen cookies telling how he'd gotten his behind reamed for not delivering them earlier.
I think Smokin’ Joe in Post #42 got it right.
An excellent company commander - and the cook deserved his reaming..
Transported a 155mm nuke to Nevada by helo. Two guys with .45s ten rounds between them. Nuts.
When I was on guard duty in the sandbox in 2009, we were issued M9s with 2x15 and M16s with 4x30. Every round was counted on issue and return.
Looking carefully at the pic, I think it’s one mag and three chocolate bars.
Looking even more carefully, that Air Force NCO looks like he ate a whole PX-load of chocolate bars...and finished it off with a gallon or two of ice cream.
W33, SADM 54.. W48 or W79 ?.....:o)
It was for a 155 as I was told, my association with it went as far as making sure it was secure as a load, and getting it where it was supposed to be. It was a fairly long flight, but helos being helos and no cell phones at the time, I thought ten rounds was light. Of course had I gone down, the rest of the flight would have took it and left me beerless.
Maybe. You'd be amazed at the .50-cal onslaughts I saw unleashed on dinky little cars, yet it didn't stop them. Crazy stuff.
I have absolutely no experience with any machine gun tho I once had a Beretta .22 short go full auto by accident. It fired three shots in a burst so short that I had to count the ones left in the mag to know how many actually fired.
I do remember a long video from I have no idea where. It was of the lead tank in the advance on Baghdad. A guy was manning a .50 and was half way out of the turret.
As they moved along, he blasted several vehicles and stopped them cold. I can still recall him firing just a few rounds at a pickup truck. After stopping he would for some reason have to work the action again to prepare for the next target (victim).
The tank never used any other weapon but that .50 just kept knocking everything out.
They can be effective, it just depends on where the round lands or if the driver gets the hint (that’s another phenomenon you’d be amazed by).
The “working the action for some reason” thing you refer to is the M2’s headspace and timing being out of whack. Improper headspace and timing can very easily screw up an M2 and turn it into a bolt action rifle. It’s fairly simple to correct, but it takes a precision gauge (usually on the a gunner’s keychain or something similar) and a few minutes of time without enemy contact.
LOL....been there.
W48 btw was the 155mm...... all dismantled now.
One round? When was this?
Our quarterdeck watch petty officers had a .45 with a full magazine but an empty chamber. This was in the 1966 to 1975 timeframe.
Early 70’s on a DDG out of Norfolk.
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