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There is no proof that we evolved from apes. Period
the Sunday Telegraph ^ | 9/11/05 | Vij Sodera

Posted on 12/15/2005 9:10:41 AM PST by flevit

Simon Schama appears to have little understanding of biology (Opinion, September 4). With an ostrich mindset that tries to ignore reality, pseudo-scientists continue in the vain hope that if they shout loud and long enough they can perpetuate the fairy story and bad science that is evolution.

You don't have to be a religious fundamentalist to question evolution theory - you just have to have an open and enquiring mind and not be afraid of challenging dogma. But you must be able to discern and dodge the effusion of evolutionary landmines that are bluster and non sequiturs.

No one denies the reality of variation and natural selection. For example, chihuahuas and Great Danes can be derived from a wolf by selective breeding. Therefore, a chihuahua is a wolf, in the same way that people of short stature and small brain capacity are fully human beings.

However, there is no evidence (fossil, anatomical, biochemical or genetic) that any creature did give rise, or could have given rise, to a different creature. In addition, by their absence in the fossil record for (supposed) millions of years along with the fact of their existence during the same time period, many animals such as the coelacanth demonstrate the principle that all creatures could have lived contemporaneously in the past.

No evidence supports the notion that birds evolved from dinosaurs, nor that whales evolved from terrestrial quadrupeds, nor that the human knee joint evolved from a fish pelvic fin. And the critically-positioned amino acids at the active sites within enzymes and structural proteins show that the origination of complex proteins by step-wise modifications of supposed ancestral peptides is impossible. In other words, birds have always been birds, whales have always been whales, apes did not evolve into humans, and humans have always been humans.

But you might protest that it has been proved that we evolved from apes. In fact, the answer is a categorical No. Australopithecines, for example, were simply extinct apes that in a few anatomical areas differed from living apes. If some of them walked bipedally to a greater degree than living apes, this does not constitute evidence that apes evolved into humans - it just means that some ancient apes were different from living apes.


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: anotherevotalltale; clowntown; creationisthicks; creationuts; crevolist; drzaiusrules; evilutionuts; evolution; foolsaysthereisnogod; fruitcakes; goddooditamen; idiocy; ignoranceisstrength; ignoranceonparade; moron
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To: <1/1,000,000th%
And you got post #400! Nice!

Despite appearances, it was not by design.

421 posted on 12/16/2005 12:52:37 PM PST by PatrickHenry (... endless horde of misguided Luddites ...)
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To: Aliska
I remember visiting Salt Lake City when I was a teenager (1950's), and just to the west of it, my father who had read some things about geology was pointing out what he thought were shorelines etched high in the mountains.

Those shoreline etchings are the high-water marks from Lake Bonneville, which inudated most of Utah during the glacial melt-off at the end of the last ice age.

Here's some specifics: http://www.ugs.state.ut.us/online/PI-39/

422 posted on 12/16/2005 12:53:03 PM PST by forsnax5 (The greatest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.)
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To: PatrickHenry
Despite appearances, it was not by design.

I don't know. It looks irreducibly complex to me.

423 posted on 12/16/2005 12:55:46 PM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Ichneumon

Ichy, nothing you post is worth a glance. Your personal bias has prevented you from seeing the obvious and logical truth. You post long collections of worthless opinion and attempt to push it off as science. Give up.


424 posted on 12/16/2005 1:03:20 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
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To: ml/nj
I think maybe parents tell kids that storks bring babies because they think their kids cannot deal with or understand the truth

I was spared that lie, but not the Santa Claus one. Got past it.

I suppose I would believe more in the Torah and Genesis in my various scripture versions literally true than you would, but do not believe all of it was literal.

Two things. An elaborate religious system was built on the concept of some kind of original sin or fall of man. Why build an elaborate, supernatural religion on a lie (talking about Judaism as practiced in the OT)? I can think of some rationalistic explanations based on primitive understanding of what would now fall into the categories of psychology or philosophy, but they might not be true either.

As to the NT which you would reject (not meant as any kind of derogatory remark, just pragmatism), I have the additional problem as a Christian that Jesus taught as if some of these happenings were literally true, actually an awfully lot of them, Adam, marriage, exodus, manna, Jonah, Moses, ark (which had disappeared by the time He entered the scene), devils, etc.

Now I have to deal with the question as to whether he was ignorant Himself, pandering to an ignorant audience much as a parent might use a metaphor of the fox in Aesop's fables as literally true whereas the parent knew better (it was a manner of speaking, we do it sometimes today when referring to fiction in discussions as fact whereas we know it is fiction, example Ashley Wilkes was a prisoner in Rock Island), or did He literally believe it Himself?

My religion makes no sense if He didn't literaly believe a lot of it, and yours (if you are a practicing Jew) makes no sense either if some of it was not literally true. Why bother with passover if it didn't literally happen? Did God speak to Moses or not? Was there a literal exodus? What really happened on the mountain? Was there really an ark (I believe so but it's based on faith), was there really a temple in Jerusalem, some of it can be proven by archaelogy but not a whole lot. Or do the revisionists and scholars know better because it can't be proven and their "theories" prevail?

I just threw those out there; we don't have to agree about religion to discuss evolution per se.

Thanks for the links BTW. I hope to get to them and be able to understand some of it.

One more little incidental, the matter of credentials. I can't remember which scientist in the Watson and Crick team, but one of their specialties was ornithology per "The Double Helix". He started where he was and read up, don't believe he got another degree just to have the right credentials, worked from where he was deferring and consulting with others to fill in the gaps in his knowledge base. That didn't stop him from participating in the breakthrough. Just because someone writes about evolution or against it without the accepted credentials doesn't necessarily negate their credibility.

425 posted on 12/16/2005 1:03:34 PM PST by Aliska
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To: forsnax5

Thank you for the valuable link. I was going to delve into that, too.


426 posted on 12/16/2005 1:04:56 PM PST by Aliska
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To: Ichneumon
Ichy, nothing you post is worth a glance.

Yeah, Ichy. You're obviously blinded by rationality. Give it up.
</internet idiot mode>

427 posted on 12/16/2005 1:09:52 PM PST by PatrickHenry (... endless horde of misguided Luddites ...)
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To: PatrickHenry
Despite appearances, it was not by design.

Nonsense! Do you know how improbable it is that your life would unfold exactly as necessary so that you would be positioned to get post 400 on this thread on this website, especially when you consider the odds of the Internet being created in exactly the correct form to enable you to post to this site? Probabilities don't lie, man.

428 posted on 12/16/2005 1:10:52 PM PST by RogueIsland
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To: RogueIsland
Probabilities don't lie, man.

Your brilliance has convinced me. Let's go hunt for Noah's Ark.

429 posted on 12/16/2005 1:13:08 PM PST by PatrickHenry (... endless horde of misguided Luddites ...)
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To: RogueIsland
... Probabilities don't lie, man.


430 posted on 12/16/2005 1:13:33 PM PST by dread78645 (Sorry Mr. Franklin, We couldn't keep it.)
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To: RogueIsland

Better grooming and personal hygiene habits too.


431 posted on 12/16/2005 1:23:33 PM PST by RightWingAtheist ("Why thank you Mr.Obama, I'm proud to be a Darwinist!")
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To: editor-surveyor; Ichneumon
"Worthless opinion?" He cites his work with links to the papers from which it's drawn. You can't rebut him so you dismiss him out of hand.

Don't worry. The lurkers know who is doing the research and who is handwaving.

432 posted on 12/16/2005 1:38:47 PM PST by Junior (From now on, I'll stick to science, and leave the hunting alien mutants to the experts!)
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To: LanaTurnerOverdrive

bump


433 posted on 12/16/2005 1:58:45 PM PST by LanaTurnerOverdrive
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To: Junior

That's not research it's manufacturing propaganda. Research requires facts, and lurkers are smarter than you give them credit for.


434 posted on 12/16/2005 2:22:39 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
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To: editor-surveyor

He cites the papers so that anyone with any gumption can go out and check for himself. Your problem is you have nothing to rebut him with so you simply dismiss his posts. It's glaringly apparent to everyone here.


435 posted on 12/16/2005 2:33:35 PM PST by Junior (From now on, I'll stick to science, and leave the hunting alien mutants to the experts!)
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Comment #436 Removed by Moderator

To: Junior
He cites toilet paper. If you want reality, go to Walt Brown's Site and get on track, otherwise remain in your rut and smile. I makes nothing to me if you choose to remain ignorant.
437 posted on 12/16/2005 4:24:32 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

At least you can eat the spam. Ichy's stuff is only good for after you eat the spam.


438 posted on 12/16/2005 4:28:04 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
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To: editor-surveyor

He cites peer-reviewed scientific research papers. Your website is chock full of thrice-refuted creationist claptrap.


439 posted on 12/16/2005 4:28:39 PM PST by Junior (From now on, I'll stick to science, and leave the hunting alien mutants to the experts!)
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To: Junior
He cites peer-reviewed scientific research papers. Your website is chock full of thrice-refuted creationist claptrap.

You're being insensitive. Teach the controversy!

440 posted on 12/16/2005 4:40:10 PM PST by PatrickHenry (... endless horde of misguided Luddites ...)
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