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MI: Open Carry Lawsuit; Police Report or Dashcam Video?
Gun Watch ^ | 25 December, 2013 | Dean Weingarten

Posted on 12/24/2013 3:15:01 PM PST by marktwain

Open Carrier With Revolver

Johann Deffert is suing the Grand Rapids Police for their treatment when he was stopped while openly carrying a handgun.  Now, two versions of events are being put forward.   In the official police version, as reported in mlive.com:
“Deffert was alone, and was loudly talking to himself,” Moe wrote. “Based on the area, and Deffert’s unusual behavior, R/O (responding officer) was concerned Deffert may have mental issues and was about to commit a violent crime.
The responding officer then elaborates:
He secured Deffert in handcuffs. He then secured a .40- or .45-caliber semi-automatic pistol with attached flashlight.
“Deffert immediately began stating that he was exercising his right open carry,” Moe wrote. “R/O explained to Deffert, he had that right (to) open carry as long as he was not a felon or had any documented mental orders.
“R/O further explained to Deffert, R/O would release him as soon as R/O checked him in LEIN (Law Enforcement Information Network). Deffert stated he had neither. Based on Deffert’s answers and odd demeanor, R/O was not so sure Deffert did not have some psychological issues. Deffert would not elaborate on why he was talking to himself. He had no cell phone on him,” Moe wrote, in a four-paragraph narrative.
The problem is that people who claim to have seen the dashcam video from the officers patrol car say that the video does not support the R/O's report.  From the comments on mlive.com  Tom Lambert , who claims to have seen the dashcam video, writes:
 Tim and I are on the leadership of a group called Michigan Open Carry and are local to the GR area. The plaintiff contacted us after his incident seeking help. We reviewed his case (the video) and sent him to a qualified attorney.

I have tried to be open and honest about who I am, and the facts of this case. If you still do not believe me, I understand, but I feel there is nothing more I can do.
In a later post Tim Beahan writes:
Having reviewed the video, the comments offered by the responding officer are a complete fabrication. I'm looking forward to his impending career change.
Tom Lambert writes:
 "But, his attorney, Steven Dulan said Deffert “repeatedly offered his identification to (police), who refused to retrieve it for several minutes, instead choosing to debate public policy with plaintiff.”"

This is backed up in the video. If the R/O just wanted to "check out" the plaintiff, why did he debate policy with the plaintiff instead of checking him out?


In a separate post:

 "Deffert would not elaborate on why he was talking to himself. He had no cell phone on him"

Both are not true as demonstrated on the video. Perhaps if the R/O had listened to the answers to his questions, this might not have turned out this way.
The dashcam video has not been released to the public.   Deffert's lawyer is said to have the copy that Lambert and Beahan say they saw.

The  Police in Warren, Michigan and Grand Haven have settled  claims with open carriers who sued.   It will be interesting to see if Grand Rapids Michigan does the same.   A common requirement of such a lawsuit is training of the police to respect the second amendment rights of open carriers.   Another common requirement is that plaintiffs are required not to talk about the settlement.

©2013 by Dean Weingarten: Permission to share is granted when this notice is included.
Link to Gun Watch


TOPICS: Government; History; Society
KEYWORDS: 2ndamendment; banglist; grandrapids; mi; michigan; opencarry; secondamendment
This post was pulled earlier so that some attribution errors could be corrected.
1 posted on 12/24/2013 3:15:01 PM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain
Police lie? Say it ain't so. /s

/johnny

2 posted on 12/24/2013 3:16:38 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Springman; cyclotic; netmilsmom; RatsDawg; PGalt; FreedomHammer; queenkathy; madison10; ...
Police using a common human habit to insinuate that someone may be mentally ill as an excuse to gain control of them.

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

Michigan legislative action thread
3 posted on 12/24/2013 3:18:21 PM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: marktwain
I was wondering where my brilliant response went..

Here it is again (still as brilliant):


4 posted on 12/24/2013 3:19:23 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Fight Tapinophobia in all its forms! Do not submit to arduus privilege.)
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To: marktwain

“Deffert may have mental issues and was about to commit a violent crime.”

Wow = Police can actually read people`s minds!

I thought fortune telling required a license.
These cops are watching too much tv “THE MENTALIST..>”


5 posted on 12/24/2013 3:22:33 PM PST by bunkerhill7 ("The Second Amendment has no limits on firepower"-NY State Senator Kathleen A. Marchione.")
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To: JRandomFreeper
“Deffert was alone, and was loudly talking to himself,”

Larry, Moe and Curly wrote.

6 posted on 12/24/2013 3:27:59 PM PST by bunkerhill7 ("The Second Amendment has no limits on firepower"-NY State Senator Kathleen A. Marchione.")
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To: bunkerhill7

I think some anti-rights types have claimed that merely wishing to carry a gun is a sign of mental illness.


7 posted on 12/24/2013 3:28:52 PM PST by marktwain (The MSM must die for the Republic to live. Long live the new media!)
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To: marktwain

Some cops think that not being a cop is a sign of mental illness.


8 posted on 12/24/2013 3:38:24 PM PST by donmeaker (A man can go anywhere on earth, and where man can go, he can drag a cannon.)
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To: bunkerhill7

I spend a lot of time by myself since I retired..

I do talk to myself a lot since retirement.

Frankly, I fail to see what is wrong with that.

Now I will admit that if the comments are totally off the wall or if the person is in a public place ranting something incoherent....

But this fellow was driving his car. Most of us consider our car to be a private place. Even the law considers your car a private place, otherwise there would be no need for a warrant to search it.

Stub your toe, drop your keys, suddenly remember that you forgot your wife’s birthday...cuss yourself for being stupid..

So what?

All part of being a human.

The cop is an ass.


9 posted on 12/24/2013 3:46:20 PM PST by old curmudgeon
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To: JRandomFreeper

EVERY police report I’ve seen (in connection with myself, family or friends) has had LIES in the report - things which were total fabrications.

I believe ... now ... that no one can depend on the veracity or accuracy of police reports. And I say that from direct experience.


10 posted on 12/24/2013 3:50:43 PM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: marktwain

“Who are you going to believe?,” asked the officer, “Me, or your own lying eyes?”


11 posted on 12/24/2013 4:14:08 PM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy (Last Obamacare Promise: "If You Like Your Eternal Soul, You Can Keep It.")
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To: marktwain; Alaska Wolf

Psychic cop ping


12 posted on 12/24/2013 4:38:15 PM PST by null and void (I'm betting on an Obama Trifecta: A Nobel Peace Prize, an Impeachment, AND a War Crimes Trial...)
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To: marktwain

Going price in Virginia for an open carry false arrest is about $10k. Seems to have cured the problem for most LEOs.


13 posted on 12/24/2013 4:40:24 PM PST by RKBA Democrat (Getting some small say in who will get to hold the whip doesn't make you any less a slave.)
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To: JRandomFreeper

In a case in my area the cops broke into an apartment in the middle of the night, and terrorized a family. They pointed guns at everyone including kids, and held them in cuffs for hours. They found nothing. They later claimed the warrant had listed their apartment (#2), when it should have been #3 and submitted a copy of the warrant showing #2 to the court. Meanwhile, the family’s attorney produced a copy given to him the day after that clearly states apt. #3. The occupants of #3 are long gone of course.


14 posted on 12/24/2013 4:46:26 PM PST by Hugin
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To: Hugin

So, of course, hizzonor threw the book at the miscreants who falsified evidence, right? right???


15 posted on 12/24/2013 4:51:07 PM PST by null and void (I'm betting on an Obama Trifecta: A Nobel Peace Prize, an Impeachment, AND a War Crimes Trial...)
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To: Star Traveler
EVERY police report I’ve seen (in connection with myself, family or friends) has had LIES in the report - things which were total fabrications.

I was there when my buddy made a statement to the police, watched him taking notes. Later on the "report" had things in it that were not said, and lacked important details that were said. As the DA was preparing a case I was contacted by buddy's atty, made a statement to her about what I had witnessed being said, not said. Couple of weeks later lo and behold, DA drops everything before going to trial. Things that make you go hmmm.

16 posted on 12/24/2013 4:53:39 PM PST by ThunderSleeps (Stop obarma now! Stop the hussein - insane agenda!)
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To: null and void

I hope so. The family’s lawsuit is still pending.


17 posted on 12/24/2013 4:58:02 PM PST by Hugin
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To: old curmudgeon

A warrant is not needed to search a vehicle...and its not private. One can be intoxicated in public in a vehicle...


18 posted on 12/24/2013 5:19:46 PM PST by bike800
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To: marktwain

“I think some anti-rights types have claimed that merely wishing to carry a gun is a sign of mental illness.”

Most cops think anyone who supports the Constitution of the
United States has a mental illness.


19 posted on 12/24/2013 5:22:03 PM PST by Slambat
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To: marktwain

I was a LEO for 35yrs, never ever had the problems like we see today. It’s not just Mich. but the whole world seems to have gone crazy.


20 posted on 12/24/2013 5:46:07 PM PST by JamesA (You don't have to be big to stand tall)
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To: bike800

A warrant is required to search a vehicle unless there is probable cause.


21 posted on 12/24/2013 6:23:20 PM PST by old curmudgeon
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To: bunkerhill7
“Deffert was alone, and was loudly talking to himself,”

That's all everyone does these days..with phones in their ears.

22 posted on 12/24/2013 7:17:30 PM PST by TribalPrincess2U (0bama's agenda¬óDivide and conquer seems to be working.)
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To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; cardinal4; ColdOne; ...

> Having reviewed the video, the comments offered by the responding officer are a complete fabrication.

Thanks marktwain.


23 posted on 12/24/2013 9:02:17 PM PST by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
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To: old curmudgeon
I do not listen to what the voices in my head tell me to do.
I listen to what the voices in my wifes' head tell her to tell me to do.

24 posted on 12/26/2013 1:40:21 AM PST by Tainan (Cogito, ergo conservatus sum -- "The Taliban is inside the building")
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To: bunkerhill7

When my son was a toddler, my mother asked if he talked to himself when he was alone. I grinned and responded. “I don’t know. I’ve never been with him when he was alone.”


25 posted on 12/26/2013 2:09:23 AM PST by gitmo (If your theology doesn't become your biography, what good is it?)
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To: marktwain

Apparently, the gentleman with the firearm was exercising his sovereign right. According to a LEO I know well from East Lansing, Michigan the term “sovereign citizen” is gaining currency among the rogue element of law enforcement. While, as free men and women, we are sovereign citizens, the term has taken on a different meaning among this subset. Their view essentially is that we are never right, always guilty until we prove ourselves innocent. Therefore we are subject to the application of law as they define it, not as the state or US Constitution defines our rights. If we choose to challenge them on the basis of our defined rights, we’re sarcastically referred to as “sovereign citizens”. Apparently they particularly hate “minor issues” like 2A and 4A. 1984 redux.


26 posted on 12/26/2013 2:34:21 AM PST by RushLake (Nothing can bring you peace but the triumph of principles. (Emerson))
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To: bike800

A warrent, or probable cause, IS required to search your vehicle, and it is private property. Your example provides probable cause, but does not make your vehicle public property.

Just say no to ALL requests to search your car. When a policeman has stopped you, he is not there to be your friend, he is there to put you in jail if he can. It is foolish to answer leading questions or submit to a search voluntarily.


27 posted on 12/26/2013 8:36:12 AM PST by RetiredNavy ("Only accurate firearms are interesting")
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To: RetiredNavy

Probable cause is needed for a search of your vehicle...a warrant is not. It falls under the Carroll Doctrine. It is not public property, ut you are considered in public is in a vehicle...


28 posted on 12/26/2013 5:46:34 PM PST by bike800
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