Probing Question: What happened before the Big Bang?

Pennsylvania State University ^ | 03 August 2006 | Barbara Kennedy

[PatrickHenry]

The question of what happened before the Big Bang long has frustrated cosmologists, both amateur and professional.

Though Einstein's theory of general relativity does an excellent job of describing the universe almost back to its beginning, near the Big Bang matter becomes so dense that relativity breaks down, says Penn State physicist Abhay Ashtekar. "Beyond that point, we need to apply quantum tools that were not available to Einstein."

Now Ashtekar and two of his post-doctoral researchers, Tomasz Pawlowski and Parmpreet Singh, have done just that. Using a theory called loop quantum gravity, they have developed a mathematical model that skates right up to the Big Bang -- and steps through it. On the other side, Ashtekar says, exists another universe with space-time geometry similar to our own, except that instead of expanding, it is shrinking. "In place of a classical Big Bang, there is in fact a quantum Bounce," he says.

Loop quantum gravity, one of the leading approaches to the unification of general relativity with quantum physics, was pioneered at the Institute of Gravitational Physics and Geometry at Penn State, which Ashtekar directs. The theory posits that space-time geometry itself has a discrete "atomic" structure, Ashtekar explains. Instead of the familiar space-time continuum, the fabric of space is made up of one-dimensional quantum threads. Near the Big Bang, this fabric is violently torn, and these quantum properties cause gravity to become repulsive, rather than attractive.

While the idea of another universe existing prior to the Big Bang has been proposed before, he adds, this is the first mathematical description that systematically establishes its existence and deduces its space-time geometry.

"Our initial work assumes a homogenous model of our universe," Ashtekar acknowledges. "However, it has given us confidence in the underlying ideas of loop quantum gravity. We will continue to refine the model to better portray the universe as we know it and to better understand the features of quantum gravity."

***

Abhay Ashtekar is holder of the Eberly family chair in physics and director of the Institute for Gravitational Physics and Geometry in the Eberly College of Science. He can be reached at ava1@psu.edu.

The finding reported above was published in Physical Review Letters in May 2006. The research was sponsored by the National Science Foundation, Alexander von Humboldt Foundation, and the Penn State Eberly College of Science.

[Donald Rumsfeld Fan]

I have no idea what you are talking about. The universe is mostly empty space. You don't need matter to have space. Heck, even an atom is mostly empty space.

Ask yourself. How do you measure/prove a "space" exists sans matter/energy?

It's kind of like Neil Bohr's Copenhagen Principle. If you can't measure it...it doesn't exist.

[sirchtruth]

Theory: A scientifically testable general principle or body of principles offered to explain observed phenomena. In scientific usage, a theory is distinct from a hypothesis (or conjecture) that is proposed to explain previously observed phenomena.

What I'm pointing out is scientist can scheme and call evolution a "Theory", but it is NOT in the true sense of the definition you've provided...Evolution is conjecture because there is not a scientific testable, observable phenomena of change from ONE species to a totally different species that's ever been observed. WHY, because by science's own acknowledgement, there is not enough time to observe this FULL phenomena, only minute changes, or mutations.

Which I don't have a problem with science saying, "Based on the observances we believe Evolution occurs." However, what agendized science says is, "Based on these observances, Evolution occurs."

Wrong...

[Sir Francis Dashwood]

You never figured out how to write...

Of course, being illiterate as you are, you must accept the Christian myth; it is self-evident by your use of the 666 Christian terminology of your pathetic user name...

Aging dung dries up, blows away and diminishes greatly in odor. In a covered jar or vessel, it ferments... And thus, we have your vapid commentary intra muros, wafting forth with putrified scent from such a container being loosened.

[sirchtruth]

; religious belief is neither a scientific fact nor a scientific theory.

Agreed. But I'm saying evolution doesn't even rise to a religion, it's really more of a cult...

[aruanan]

Probing Question: What happened before the Big Bang?

The Big Gasp.

[Coyoteman]

What I'm pointing out is scientist can scheme and call evolution a "Theory", but it is NOT in the true sense of the definition you've provided...Evolution is conjecture because there is not a scientific testable, observable phenomena of change from ONE species to a totally different species that's ever been observed. WHY, because by science's own acknowledgement, there is not enough time to observe this FULL phenomena, only minute changes, or mutations.

This is a transitional. Note its position in the chart which follows (hint--in the upper center):

---

Fossil: KNM-ER 3733

Site: Koobi Fora (Upper KBS tuff, area 104), Lake Turkana, Kenya (4, 1)

Discovered By: B. Ngeneo, 1975 (1)

Estimated Age of Fossil: 1.75 mya * determined by Stratigraphic, faunal, paleomagnetic & radiometric data (1, 4)

Species Name: Homo ergaster (1, 7, 8), Homo erectus (3, 4, 7), Homo erectus ergaster (25)

Gender: Female (species presumed to be sexually dimorphic) (1, 8)

Cranial Capacity: 850 cc (1, 3, 4)

Information: Tools found in same layer (8, 9). Found with KNM-ER 406 A. boisei (effectively eliminating single species hypothesis) (1)

Interpretation: Adult (based on cranial sutures, molar eruption and dental wear) (1)

See original source for notes:
Source: http://www.mos.org/evolution/fossils/fossilview.php?fid=33

Source: http://wwwrses.anu.edu.au/environment/eePages/eeDating/HumanEvol_info.html

[freedumb2003]

GREAT link!

[Coyoteman]

; religious belief is neither a scientific fact nor a scientific theory.

Agreed. But I'm saying evolution doesn't even rise to a religion, it's really more of a cult...

That you don't agree with the theory of evolution does not make it either a religion or a cult.

Science marches on, whether you say yea or nay.

[freedumb2003]

Agreed. But I'm saying evolution doesn't even rise to a religion, it's really more of a cult...

Like those Physicists, Chemists, Astonomers, Geneticists -- followers of their foolish views, the lot of 'em!

[freedumb2003]

Ping to my new tag -- a paraphrase of your great post.

[sirchtruth]

What really interests me here is space-time, and whether or not it existed before this so-called big bang?

Did space-time come into existance at that point of this event? How do you imagine outside space-time?

For another time perhaps: How can a thing not get any smaller?

[freedumb2003]

And I don't plan on getting sidetracked tonight. I might even "sleep" (whatever that is -- I am Googling it now).

[js1138]

I've been away since early afternoon. Did I miss anything?

[sirchtruth]

Science marches on, whether you say yea or nay.

I support HONEST science 100%...Whether I agree or not that evolution is a cult puts no MORE fact into the conjecture that Man evolved.

[freedumb2003]

Did space-time come into existance at that point of this event? How do you imagine outside space-time?

We know space-time has different properties under different conditions. We can infer from that that there must be something outside.

But I am far from an expert in this area -- I guarantee my thoughts are 100% speculation.

[sirchtruth]

Like those Physicists, Chemists, Astonomers, Geneticists -- followers of their foolish views, the lot of 'em!

They become only foolish views if they try and parade conjecture and speculation as fact.

[Doctor Stochastic]

If nothing else there is that three degree microwave radiation everywhere.

It's full of gravity, too.

[HayekRocks]

Incredibly funny that the Big Bang theory is the immaculate conception of a Jesuit astronomer...

Georges Lemaitre was not a Jesuit. He was educated by the Jesuits, but I assure you, that is not sufficient! He was a diocesan priest.

I suspect, looking at the general intemperance and ignorance of your posts, that you are claiming to be atheist only in a futile attempt to discredit atheism. Be it as it may; please do not attempt to comment on Catholic Orders if you are completely ignorant of them.

Come to think of it, the same rule holds for your posts on evolution.

[DaGman]

So if 99.999999999% of people don't understand what the hell they're talking about here and don't believe it does that mean they should teach "the controversy".

[freedumb2003]

They become only foolish views if they try and parade conjecture and speculation as fact.

All of science is inference. You think anyone has ever seen a graviton? How about cosmic strings? Quantum Physics is 100% inference -- the items being studied cannot be directly observed.

So explain why the Theory of Gravity (which is much more vague than TToE) is OK. Or maybe you have a problem with that, as well?

[sirchtruth]

We know space-time has different properties under different conditions. We can infer from that (that) there must be something outside.

Can you point to an example of "different properties under different conditions."

I'm trying to think of something, like how time slows down or speeds up in altitude. (very minute) I don't remember the name of the experiment, but it was where they flew clocks around the world from different directions.

[HayekRocks]

They become only foolish views if they try and parade conjecture and speculation as fact.

Please share with us your expert basis for distinguishing speculation from fact.

[freedumb2003]

It's full of gravity, too.

You can tap into it via gravity wells. But don't get caught. The Force Police are almost as bad as the Time Cops.

[freedumb2003]

Can you point to an example of "different properties under different conditions."

Black hole singularities.

[HayekRocks]

I'm trying to think of something, like how time slows down or speeds up in altitude. (very minute) I don't remember the name of the experiment, but it was where they flew clocks around the world from different directions.

For an individual with such strong opinions on the matter, you seem remarkably hazy on the details.

[js1138]

But his self-esteem is good.

[sirchtruth]

All of science is inference. So explain why the Theory of Gravity (which is much more vague than TToE) is OK.

I don't know why evo's use this example because it's so bad...anyways we know the effects of gravity we see it and feel them constantly every second. We can see it's cause and effect.

[tortoise]

What I'm pointing out is scientist can scheme and call evolution a "Theory", but it is NOT in the true sense of the definition you've provided...Evolution is conjecture because there is not a scientific testable, observable phenomena of change from ONE species to a totally different species that's ever been observed.

Nonsense. We can prove in mathematics that an evolutionary dynamic must exist in biology, the "theory" is to what extent that necessarily existing dynamic is responsible for speciation. Evolution is mathematics (general systems theory) applied to biology in the same way calculus is applied to physics. Would you argue that physics is somehow exempt from calculus if it was convenient for you, or were you unaware the evolution in biology is applied theoretical mathematics?

[freedumb2003]

I don't know why evo's use this example because it's so bad...anyways we know the effects of gravity we see it and feel them constantly every second. We can see it's cause and effect.

Do you know what a "scientific theory" is? From your response, I would say you don't.

[Doctor Stochastic]

I note again that none of the Creationists do other than endorse this type of argument. The preponderance of evidence indicates it's part of their Weltgeist.

[sirchtruth]

For an individual with such strong opinions on the matter, you seem remarkably hazy on the details.

Wow, that statement really worked for ya didn't it? Quite an edification.

Got anymore brillant insights, Sherlock?

[HayekRocks]

But his self-esteem is good.

I saw a recent study on inner city youth, in which they drew an inverse correlation between self-esteem and performance on standardized tests. The conclusion they drew was rather euphemistially phrased, but translated, it was essentially 'some people are too stupid to realize how stupid they are'.

Of course, I am just recalling an amusing anecdote; in no way is this relevant to the present instance. All FReepers are above average.

[ml1954]

We can see it's cause

What is its cause?

[Coyoteman]

Ping to my new tag -- a paraphrase of your great post.

Humbled, I am.

[HayekRocks]

I'm sorry, I forgot it was Friday night. Have another drink, and do not pay any attention to me.

[freedumb2003]

:)

[Coyoteman]

I support HONEST science 100%...Whether I agree or not that evolution is a cult puts no MORE fact into the conjecture that Man evolved.

Whether you agree or not that evolution is a science puts no LESS fact into the theory that Man evolved.

There, fixed it for you.

[ml1954]

I saw a recent study on inner city youth, in which they drew an inverse correlation between self-esteem and performance on standardized tests. The conclusion they drew was rather euphemistially phrased, but translated, it was essentially 'some people are too stupid to realize how stupid they are'.

Our prisons are filled with people with high self esteem.

[freedumb2003]

'some people are too stupid to realize how stupid they are'.

ANOTHER entry in my potential tagline list! And that one is pithy enough to be put into use when I am ready to switch (my current tag is a paraphrase from Coyoteman).

Check my profile in about 10 minutes...

[Junior]

It was given that name derisively by one of its early detractors.

[tortoise]

But his self-esteem is good.

I would expect so. His "emotional intelligence quotient" is clearly in the rarified strata of the high end, possibly even five sigma.

[andysandmikesmom]

'Friday nite fights' placemarker...

[freedumb2003]

Well, why did they call it the "Big Bang"?

The "Big Splat" lacks elan.

[Doctor Stochastic]

With Gravity, The Force is always with you.

[Junior]

My religious convictions have no bearing on the discussion and your request is nothing more than an effort to regain the initiative now that you've discovered you have nothing of substance to contribute to this discussion.

[freedumb2003]

You missed my go-round last night.

I got kind of mean -- I don't want to do that again.

I was babysitting data conversion jobs all night, so I was a little snarky. I apologized to the guy later, so I hope all is OK.

If I get snarkier than usual, please let me know. I have a mssive sleep debt (2 hours of sleep in the last 48)

[freedumb2003]

With Gravity, The Force is always with you.

A place where Metric works much much better than the English system.

[longshadow]

I'm sorry, I forgot it was Friday night. Have another drink, and do not pay any attention to me.

See my post #245 -- I came to the same conclusion over two hours ago!

[andysandmikesmom]

Actually I have missed a lot of things on FR, in the last few days...been too busy taking care of the sick hubby(his latest trip to the oral surgeon took its toll)...

It looks like things have been lively around here tho...sorry I missed everything...oh well, I can have fun catching up...

[HayekRocks]

I came to the same conclusion over two hours ago!

Well, I understand from those who engage in this sort of behavior that the key is to hit a 'plateau' and remain there.

Maybe I will have a beer.