Posted on 09/25/2008 12:25:31 AM PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free
Human suffering became a reality for millions of Americans as the depression continued. Many died of disease resulting from malnutrition. Thousands lost their home because they could not pay the mortgage. In 1932,at least 25,000 families,and more than 200,000 young people wandered through the country seeking food,clothing,shelter,and a job.
Many of the young people traveled in freight trains,and lived near train yards called hobo jungles. The homeless,jobless travelers obtained food from welfare agencies,or religious missions in town along the way. Most of their meals consisted of soup,beans,or stew and had very little nourishment. The travelers begged for food,or stole it if they could not get something to eat. They even ate scraps of food from garbage cans.
The ragged travelers found clothing even harder to obtain than food. Missions gave most of the clothing they had to the needy local people. Many of the travelers became very ill because they did not have food,or proper clothing. Even the sick wanderers had trouble getting help because the hospitals aided local residents first.
I agree with what you said and will add that the dollar will tank.
Now you lead me through why doing nothing and letting the market collapse is a good thing. Treasury crash, anyone? Watch China dump all of their treasuries. That will help our economy, right?
But I’m all ears to hear why you think that letting the system collapse is a better bet than holding our nose and doing the unpalatable — by rewarding a bunch of greedy bastards for screwing us over because we can’t cut off our nose to spite our face.
I agree that at some point we will have inflation and high energy costs and a weak dollar will come right away. Did you ever stop to think though that the world, since decoupling is another idiotic untrue myth, that the Euro may struggle even worse than the dollar in this crisis? If we prop up the US financial system, where does the world go for a flight to safety? It goes to Treasuries and to dollars. Think about that.
No fear huh? Do you just like depressions or are you assuming that the US financial system is so strong it can’t possibly collapse? Are you so sure we can’t have another depression?
Let the chips fall! No bailout! Screw ‘em all! I’ll take my chances!
You say that now.
>> Your guess was close but only off by 179-degrees.
I wasn’t really guessing. I was yanking your chain.
>> I am all cash and 100% debt free.
As am I.
>> I don’t own a house because I refused to buy in the insane housing bubble.
I don’t blame you. I bought my house in ‘94. It’s paid off.
>> you SHOULD know by now because I have been screaming here on Free Republic on a regular basis
I scream here too! But I don’t delude myself that anyone hangs on what I say enough to remember it for even one thread cycle... maybe your ego needs a deflationary cycle too? :-)
>> As for worrying about inflation, you better start worrying about deflation in a major way
I’m concerned about both. Trust me on that.
>> no bailout, when the resulting crash occurs, at worst you get laid off or at best you get a pay cut
Too late... I was already forced into a “sabbatical” when the company I worked for was sold. Fortunately I had some stock...
>> If this works, then the monetization WILL cause inflation. So pick your poison. Some inflation or a long, deep, deflationary recession
That’s a straw man argument: you assert, but you haven’t PROVEN, that the deflation will be long or deep. I’ll rephrase your statement to “pick your poison, some inflation or some deflation”. Since I’m in cash, I choose “some deflation”. OK?
A depression (actully reccesiion) at this state would be global and since so many economies are tied together and diversified a truncated reccession would be much better than a long drawn out one. Bailing out the investment banks now will do nothing but postpone the inevitable. No one is looking at the real issue of derivatives and credit default swaps which stands to be much greater debt than sub-prime mortgages.
>> Let the chips fall! No bailout! Screw ‘em all! I’ll take my chances! You say that now.
Why, yes, I do say that now. Well, not exactly that — you’re putting words in my mouth I didn’t say. But you get my drift.
What happened? Why have you grown tired of reasoning and gone back to shrieking hyperbole?
NO BAIL OUT!
PLEASE read even 10%
or say a couple of quotes per screen page . . .
of our political & other leaders since 1900 linked in my tagline . . .
and then tell me if you still believe as you posted above.
Doesn’t sound like you’ve done much research in the field.
So you honestly believe you could walk to the Senate this minute and propose a better solution to this financial crisis than Paulson and Bernanke?
Yes, Paulson is one of the greedy pigmen, which means he knows them inside and out, like a parent who knows his kids tricks because he did them once. Paulson is a moron? And Bernanke, who although theoretically, has spent a lifetime studying the causes and mistakes of the Great Depression. Bernanke is an idiot?
Just 2 stupid men who are so stupid that an expenditure of $700 billion is going to lead us to a crisis of hyper-inflation along the lines of Weimar Germany against a national debt of $13 Trillion, against a GDP of $14 Trillion?
And these 2 men are just dunces who are so naive that they are accidentally going to cause a hyper-inflation and have no chance to stop a systemic WORLD financial collapse.
So what is your plan that you would put before Congress today, this minute. How do you plan to prevent a crash of the bond market, which holds multiple times the value of the stock market? How are you going to free the logjam in commercial paper? How are you going to stimulate lending among institutions that are terrified to lend money they fear they might lose as they are already technically insolvent and are trying to stall and find some way to recapture solvency?
Or is your answer just, crash and burn, bring it all down man, let it collapse, they have it coming, who cares if I get laid off or not and can’t find work for 5 years?
>> Paulson is a moron? And Bernanke, who although theoretically, has spent a lifetime studying the causes and mistakes of the Great Depression. Bernanke is an idiot?
Here’s a FACT.
Both Bernanke and Paulson have told us multiple times in their tenure, including quite recently, that the economy was OK.
They never warned us about this supposed horrific event that was just down the pike.
Again, that is simply a FACT. You don’t get to spin it. It just IS.
Now, how would you prefer to explain this FACT?
I’ll grant you that calling either of them “stupid” is hyperbole on my part.
Having said that: is the reason they were so very, very WRONG about recent events — in spite of their experience, education, and access to essentially ALL the financial information there is to possess — because they aren’t quite the top-notch thinkers and executives that they were billed to be?
Or, did they in fact know about the train wreck, and they chose to lie to us?
Which answer do you prefer? If you don’t like “incompetent” we can go with “dishonest”. I chose “incompetent” because it seems more charitable. But it seems to me that it’s one or the other. Either they didn’t know, or they knew and they lied to us.
I will survive theses troubled times regardless of the direction this mess may go.
However, I do fear for those that wont be as prepared.... they will be tested in ways they can’t even imagine.
It’s the long recovery, perhaps decades, that’s going to hurt the most...
Perhaps when the dust settles, we will be a better people.
God bless and good luck to all.
I can’t argue against your point because I lack the knowledge and I can’t find any consensus among pundits I find credible that the bailout will work or will not work.
It may be a foregone conclusion that the financial system will collapse and the bailout will be ineffective.
That said, are Paulson and Bernanke morons to not see that, with all of their experience? Are they just trying to delay until after the elections? Are they hoping against hope the bailout will work?
Ever hear of Nouriel Roubini. He has been way, way out ahead of everybody but Meredith Whitney on the systemic financial risk in our economy and he has been rabidly bearish on the state of our finances. He believes the bailout will lead to a sharp V-shaped recession of 18-months rather than an L-shaped recession like Japan’s lost decade? Do you think Roubini is also dumb to believe the bailout, targeted correctly, could reduce the impact of the financial risk?
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/24/news/economy/Roubini_on_bailout/index.htm
“The recession train has already left the station,” said Nouriel Roubini, professor of economics at NYU’s Stern School of Business during a conference call Wednesday. “What this plan can avoid is a Japan-like, L-shaped recession,” where the economy sinks and stays sunk, “that could last a decade or more.”
“He said a well-implemented plan could limit the heavy bleeding to 18-months.
“To do it right, according to Roubini, the toxic credit held by banks would have to be bought up and taken off balance sheets so banks can start to lend again.
“For the government to make that kind of investment, he added, it had to get something in return. Roubini suggested that should be preferred shares in the companies that later would convert to common stock.
“Roubini also had a solution for the housing market: Reduce mortgage balances to market prices and refinance them to lower mortgage payments.”
.
TO BE FAIR, Meredith Whitney seems to be against the bailout...
http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/news/2008/9/24/bailout_little_hope_of_improving_fundamentals.htm
“The credit crisis that began last summer has intensified so much that any U.S. government bailout plan has “little hope” of improving core fundamentals over the near and medium term, said analyst Meredith Whitney.”
I GUARANTEE you that within the next three years there will be some STUNNING, heretofore UNBELIEVABLE technological advance -- or two -- that will completely energize the market.
You can have the last word, FRiend.
I’m going back to bed. Good night.
Issuing such a warning would only have led to an earlier crash.
Frustration at your constantly saying, let the chips fall. Hey, the Jews let Hitler come to power, we should have just let the chips fall. Lots of kids don’t want to go to school, let the chips fall, who cares if they can’t read or write.
Look if you are convinced that the bailout can’t possibly save the financials system from collapse, then I’ll be glad to hear your argument. What caused me to post this thread was this mindless parade of Freepers saying “no bailout” on ideological terms as if there aren’t very very severe consequences to misjudging the opportunity to prevent that financial collapse.
I really honestly have no clue if this bailout will work. I have been completely on board with the fraud, mismanagement, avarice, stupidity, and corruption of the entire housing bubble and collapse since last October, so maybe I’ve had more time than most to get outraged and I’m on to preventing a depression at this time rather than luxuriating in my righteous indignation.
I’m with you, I want to punish all of the idiots and fraudsters. I want the CEOs strung up. I want the politicians shot, both Democrat and Republican. I want the greedy homeowners to lose their homes. Hell with them. They should have read the contract, and I’m sorry their children didn’t choose smarter parents.
But right now, as much as I hate Paulson and Bernanke for their pedigree, they seem to know about as much about this crisis and financial dealings in general and I’m having a hard time seeing them completely and totally second guessed by a bunch of clueless masses here on FreeRepublic that just enjoy spouting off.
I don’t care who here is financially astute, and there are many here who are just that. But who here has had inside access to all of the information that the Executive and Legislative can bring to bear. I haven’t got a clue about the inside private workings of the financial system. I can’t say who has what derivative owed to who and how this mortgage impacts that derivative. I think Bernanke and Paulson have a lot more specific, intrinsic knowledge in that regard than anyone here on FreeRepublic has.
All we seem to have is a bunch of people going on principal. Well I don’t like the principal of torture but I’m certainly willing to bend that principal to break a key terrorist in order to obtain crucial information.
I hate the bailouts and the potential for wrong-doers to benefit, but for heaven’s sake, embracing a catastrophic collapse of the world financial markets strikes me as unwise, if we have experts that think there is a ghost of a chance of saving the financial system. The time for reform will be thereafter, and THAT is the time to go on the warpath and not forget this lesson in creeping socialism. But not now.
I would be all against the bailout if I could find a solid consensus of financial experts who overwhelmingly said the bailout will not work. Instead, we simply have a mob of taxpayers saying the bailout will not work. I may not trust the experts, but the mob is an ignorant ass. I am the only person in my entire circle of family and friends who has any clue about the cause, nature and risk in the financial system.
So I am frustrated by the knee-jerk collective opposition being voiced here. Very little of it is reasoned or rational. Very little of it cites sources. Just a massive condemnation of the method Paulson and Bernanke think has a chance of saving the financial system.
Shoot me if I don’t think we should clench our jaws and say “let them all fall”. Personally, I think the widespread suffering that would cause is vastly under-appreciated here. Vastly under-estimated.
I think this recession will make the 1970s look like a cakewalk. I think unemployment will soar and deflation will hit very hard if we don’t bite the bullet and support the bailout. Without that money, I think we deflate hard and debt and credit collapse with the wave of insolvencies not just among lenders, but many businesses like GM that are on the edge if they can’t continue to get vital funding to continue operations. Let alone a collapse of the bond market or if FCBs like China completely disinvest our Treasuries. You want fear? That scares the hell out of me.
Ha ha. Very funny...
Interesting ATS thread . . . claims that The President will declare a National Emergency 5 Oct over the economic stuff . . .
I’m quite skeptical of the claims about the election . . . but this is a very crazy era getting crazier all the time. We shall see.
Links:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread394002/pg1
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/06/20080626-4.html
However, he’s already declared one . . . which allows implementation of a lot of Presidential Directives . . . which already shred whatever remains of most of the Bill of Rights.
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
June 26, 2008
Executive Order: Continuing Certain Restrictions with Respect to North Korea and North Korean Nationals
RSS Feed White House News
By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (50 U.S.C. 1701 et seq.) (IEEPA), the National Emergencies Act (50 U.S.C. 1601 et seq.) (NEA), and section 301 of title 3, United States Code,
I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, find that the current existence and risk of the proliferation of weapons-usable fissile material on the Korean Peninsula constitute an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States, and I hereby declare a national emergency to deal with that threat. I further find that, as we deal with that threat through multilateral diplomacy, it is necessary to continue certain restrictions with respect to North Korea that would otherwise be lifted pursuant to a forthcoming proclamation that will terminate the exercise of authorities under the Trading With the Enemy Act (50 U.S.C. App. 1 et seq.) (TWEA) with respect to North Korea.
Accordingly, I hereby order:
Section 1. Except to the extent provided in statutes or in regulations, orders, directives, or licenses that may be issued pursuant to this order, and notwithstanding any contract entered into or any license or permit granted prior to the date of this order, the following are blocked and may not be transferred, paid, exported, withdrawn, or otherwise dealt in:
all property and interests in property of North Korea or a North Korean national that, pursuant to the President’s authorities under the TWEA, the exercise of which has been continued in accordance with section 101(b) of Public Law 95-223 (91 Stat. 1625; 50 U.S.C. App. 5(b) note), were blocked as of June 16, 2000, and remained blocked immediately prior to the date of this order.
Sec. 2. Except to the extent provided in statutes or in regulations, orders, directives, or licenses that may be issued pursuant to this order, and notwithstanding any contract entered into or any license or permit granted prior to the date of this order, United States persons may not register a vessel in North Korea, obtain authorization for a vessel to fly the North Korean flag, or own, lease, operate, or insure any vessel flagged by North Korea.
Sec. 3. (a) Any transaction by a United States person or within the United States that evades or avoids, has the purpose of evading or avoiding, or attempts to violate any of the prohibitions set forth in this order is prohibited.
(b) Any conspiracy formed to violate any of the prohibitions set forth in this order is prohibited.
Sec. 4. For the purposes of this order:
(a) the term “person” means an individual or entity;
(b) the term “entity” means a partnership, association, trust, joint venture, corporation, group, subgroup, or other organization; and
(c) the term “United States person” means any United States citizen, permanent resident alien, entity organized under the laws of the United States or any jurisdiction within the United States (including foreign branches), or any person in the United States.
Sec. 5. The Secretary of the Treasury, after consultation with the Secretary of State, is hereby authorized to take such actions, including the promulgation of rules and regulations, and to employ all powers granted to the President by IEEPA as may be necessary to carry out the purposes of this order. The Secretary of the Treasury may redelegate any of these functions to other officers and agencies of the United States Government consistent with applicable law. All agencies of the United States Government are hereby directed to take all appropriate measures within their authority to carry out the provisions of this order.
Sec. 6. The Secretary of the Treasury, after consultation with the Secretary of State, is hereby authorized to submit the recurring and final reports to the Congress on the national emergency declared in this order, consistent with section 401(c) of the NEA (50 U.S.C. 1641(c)) and section 204(c) of IEEPA (50 U.S.C. 1703(c)).
Sec. 7. This order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by any party against the United States, its departments, agencies, instrumentalities, or entities, its officers or employees, or any other person.
GEORGE W. BUSH
THE WHITE HOUSE,
June 26, 2008.
I’m confident they were never wrong in their statements but rather lied through their teeth. I knew they were lying when they were lying, because I knew the scope of carnage in the financial system.
Look at Paulson’s Bazooka comment, “If you’ve got a bazooka, and people know you’ve got it, you may not have to take it out.” We knew he was lying then and that he wouldn’t have asked for $300 billion to save Phony and Fraudie, if he didn’t intend to spend $300 billion.
He is lying now when he says he won’t spend all $700 billion. Hell, he’ll spend a trillion dollars if he spends a penny. I don’t think that is the issue.
They lied to try to keep up the confidence game in the markets, which I personally think was stupid and would never work (see, even I think they can be stupid sometimes).
At the same time, I do believe this bailout has a chance to calm markets and pull us back from an out and out complete collapse where lenders just say, “screw it” and close their doors and everybody downstream of that money gets cut off and goes into cardiogenic shock.
Yes they are lying and they will continue to lie. Look how Bernanke refuses to publically reveal the expected consequences of a systemic financial collapse that stunned people like Schumer and Pelosi into 15 seconds of silence.
Of course he is lying. That doesn’t mean we don’t need the bailout. And I freely admit the obvious, I have no clue if the bailout will work and neither do Bush or Paulson or Bernanke. Nobody knows. They do think it has a chance to work, and damn it, I want that chance.
I share your fear and your hope. Americans always overcome. I just hate to see undo suffering. I am a justice nut so I hate to see bad behavior rewarded and to see innocent people pay the price for other’s irresponsible behavior. But right now the goal is to reduce suffering and save the financial system. There is plenty of time later to vote out the corrupt politicians and to vote to reign in free-wheeling and dealing on Wall Street. Now is not the time to fight that battle.
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