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Natural Born Criteria
Vanity

Posted on 07/30/2009 12:56:51 AM PDT by MissTickly

Consider this thought:

If we can get the folks in Hawaii to say that they determine ‘a person’ is a Natural Born Citizen in part by looking at BOTH parents citizenship, we know Obama lied about who his real father is. Or was mistaken.

Interesting and not impossible to have them answer that question as long as it is phrased like this:

“How does the department determine a person is a Natural-Born American Citizen? What criteria does the Director use to determine that status?”

You cannot refer to Obama, at all, when you ask the question. That would violate statute so they couldn't answer.

I implore people to try to get this answer from Janice Okubo.

If he lied about his father or was mistaken, the name on the ballots in all 50 states may not be his REAL NAME. And of course it would mean lots of other things, too.


TOPICS: Conspiracy; History; Miscellaneous; Society
KEYWORDS: adoption; amended; article2section1; barackobama; bho44; birthcertificate; birthers; certifigate; colb; naturalborn; naturalborncitizen; nbc; obama; obamanoncitizenissue; okubo; supplementary; uipa
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1 posted on 07/30/2009 12:56:54 AM PDT by MissTickly
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To: MissTickly

Someone needs to file a class action suit against the state claiming widespread birth certificate fraud and subpoena all birth certificates for the last 50 years.


2 posted on 07/30/2009 1:04:58 AM PDT by FTJM
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To: MissTickly

Another way to ask is this:

Ms. Okubo-

Does the Director use the following criteria in order to verify whether a person whose record she has statutory authority over, satisfies the requirements to be a Natural-Born American Citizen?

—BOTH parents must be an American Citizen.
—Person was born in Hawaii or the U.S.


3 posted on 07/30/2009 1:06:12 AM PDT by MissTickly
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To: FTJM

Who do you work for FTJM? Obama? One of his paid bloggers?

Go away.


4 posted on 07/30/2009 1:07:26 AM PDT by MissTickly
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To: MissTickly
Is filing for and receiving fraudulent foreign student loans, a high crime, or a misdemeanor?

Not if you ARE A FOREIGNER!



INDONESIAN GO HOME

5 posted on 07/30/2009 1:19:31 AM PDT by rawcatslyentist (Ifanationexpects tobe ignorantandfree,inastateofcivilization,itexpects whatneverwas andnever will be)
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To: MissTickly
Who do you work for?

I implore people to try to get this answer from Janice Okubo.

Did you run out of stamps?

6 posted on 07/30/2009 1:23:51 AM PDT by piasa (Attitude adjustments offered here free of charge)
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To: piasa

NOPE. I’ve been using email.


7 posted on 07/30/2009 1:24:44 AM PDT by MissTickly
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To: MissTickly
Good for you MissTickly. I am concerned that so many Freepers don't understand what you obviously do, that to be natural born, both parents must be citizens. As more people understand, the questions will change. I've heard so many people mis-state the definition that I simply assumed Ms. Okubo took her’s from the state-run media, or from Florida Congressman Posey, who sponsored a bill to ask for birth certificates, but who doesn't understand the requirement of citizen parents. I'm being sarcastic. She was probably fed her statement by an Obama supporting attorney. As usual, there is lots of money at stake in this massive con job, and many lawyers expect to do much better under a pay-to-play administration.

I suspect the point is avoided because the exasperating hidden documents don't require anyone to think or read. Since there is something being hidden, that must be the problem! I have been informed by several on FR, and by Leo Donofrio and Mario Apuzzo (interesting that two patriotic attorneys are Italian); original sources, Vattel’s Law of Nations and USSC 12, The Venus, are on line.

8 posted on 07/30/2009 1:28:49 AM PDT by Spaulding
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To: MissTickly

WTF? That makes no sense at all.


9 posted on 07/30/2009 1:33:05 AM PDT by FTJM
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To: MissTickly
From

http://hawaii.gov/health/about/admin/communicationsoffice.html

here is Ms. Okubo's official public email and other public contact information:

Janice Okubo
Phone:(808) 586-4442,
Fax:(808) 586-4444
1250 Punchbowl Street Room 326
Honolulu, HI 96813
E-mail: janice.okubo@doh.hawaii.gov

10 posted on 07/30/2009 1:34:34 AM PDT by SteveH (First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.)
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To: FTJM

What makes no sense? Trying to obfuscate? Is your boss mad we’ve figured this out?


11 posted on 07/30/2009 1:35:05 AM PDT by MissTickly
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To: SteveH

Thanks, I don’t have the stomach for posting email addresses. That said, I don’t care that you have the stomach for it!


12 posted on 07/30/2009 1:36:12 AM PDT by MissTickly
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To: MissTickly

I doubt that any state HAS or USES a definition of “natural-born citizen” in its law. For instance, does any state in the union require “natural-born citizenship” to be elected governor?

We know California does not! Does ANY state?


13 posted on 07/30/2009 1:37:06 AM PDT by Arthur McGowan
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To: Arthur McGowan

Well then we need to find that out, too.


14 posted on 07/30/2009 1:38:34 AM PDT by MissTickly
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To: MissTickly
Are you insane?

I posted this:

"Someone needs to file a class action suit against the state claiming widespread birth certificate fraud and subpoena all birth certificates for the last 50 years."

And that somehow means I work for Obama? Wow.

15 posted on 07/30/2009 1:38:42 AM PDT by FTJM
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To: FTJM

And BTW, by Obama’s OWN admission, Barack Hussein Obama Sr. was a Kenyan/British citizen.

THAT’S why my statement above makes PERFECT sense.


16 posted on 07/30/2009 1:40:00 AM PDT by MissTickly
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To: FTJM

If you didn’t intend to be mocking, I apologize. I must have totally misunderstood your first comment!


17 posted on 07/30/2009 1:40:48 AM PDT by MissTickly
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To: MissTickly
Yes, I know that.

Again, how does my comment suggest that I work Obama of all people?

18 posted on 07/30/2009 1:41:43 AM PDT by FTJM
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To: MissTickly
Of course I wasn't mocking. I was being serious. Someone needs to file a class action suit in Hawaii claiming fraud and subpoena all of the relevant certificates so that Obama's is captured in the suit. Anything to get the damn thing released.

I've also suggested a suit claiming fund raising fraud against Kapiolani Hospital. And one in California using jack Ryan's custody records release as a precedent, among others.

19 posted on 07/30/2009 1:46:02 AM PDT by FTJM
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To: FTJM

Oh good Lord, I am sorry then!


20 posted on 07/30/2009 1:47:21 AM PDT by MissTickly
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To: MissTickly

Thats a good question, because it is crystal clear to me that the Hawaiian definition of Natural Born is NOT the same as the Constitutional definition. Obama is relying on HAWAII’S DEFINITION!


21 posted on 07/30/2009 1:47:46 AM PDT by Danae (I AM JIM THOMPSON - Conservative does not equal Republican. Conservative does not compromise.)
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To: Spaulding
I am concerned that so many Freepers don't understand what you obviously do, that to be natural born, both parents must be citizens.

There is no law that states that in order to be a natural born citizen, that both parents must be U.S. citizens.

However, there is this:

Currently, Title 8 of the U.S. Code fills in those gaps. Section 1401 defines the following as people who are "citizens of the United States at birth:"

Anyone born inside the United States * Citizen at Birth = Natural Born Citizen

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_citi.html

22 posted on 07/30/2009 1:48:04 AM PDT by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: Danae

OR his father isn’t who he said he is and instead is an American citizen.

But who is he and is Obama’s last name, really Obama?


23 posted on 07/30/2009 1:49:02 AM PDT by MissTickly
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To: trumandogz

Nope. Not the same as a Natural-Born citizen.


24 posted on 07/30/2009 1:50:10 AM PDT by MissTickly
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To: FTJM

...... Uh.... I might have a case for that. I have a COLB that was printed in 2000 with a 2007 date on it. The DHD is looking into it right now.


25 posted on 07/30/2009 1:51:09 AM PDT by Danae (I AM JIM THOMPSON - Conservative does not equal Republican. Conservative does not compromise.)
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To: MissTickly
Nope. Not the same as a Natural-Born citizen.

Lot's of people say that, but not a single one can point to legislation that defines natural born citizen in the manner that you claim.

I wonder why that is?

26 posted on 07/30/2009 1:53:27 AM PDT by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: MissTickly

Marshal? lol No seriously, if his current COLB was issued by Hawaii, then the last amendment was to Obama Sr’s name and him as daddy. Does that mean at least 2 amendments. Curious minds want to know... lol


27 posted on 07/30/2009 1:53:47 AM PDT by Danae (I AM JIM THOMPSON - Conservative does not equal Republican. Conservative does not compromise.)
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To: MissTickly

She is a liberal. She thinks he was born in a manger to a virgin.


28 posted on 07/30/2009 1:55:51 AM PDT by screaminsunshine (!!)
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To: trumandogz

I haven’t defined it and I have asked Hawaii to explain the criteria they used.

I just know that what you posted clearly is not a definition of a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN or your definition would say so. It doesn’t.


29 posted on 07/30/2009 1:56:02 AM PDT by MissTickly
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To: MissTickly
Dear Ms. Okubo:

Under the Uniform Information Practices Act of the State of Hawaii, "...the people are vested with the ultimate decision-making power. Government agencies exist to aid the people in the formation and conduct of public policy. Opening up the government processes to public scrutiny and participation is the only viable and reasonable method of protecting the public's interest. Therefore the legislature declares that it is the policy of this State that the formation and conduct of public policy—the discussions, deliberations, decisions, and action of government agencies—shall be conducted as openly as possible."

Please send me an electronic copy of the written criteria by which the Hawaii Department of Health determines that a person is a natural born American citizen.

Also please send me an electronic copy of any written communications between the Hawaii Department of Health and Barack Obama or anyone claiming to represent Barack Obama concerning Mr. Obama's birth certificate, certificate of live birth, certification of live birth, and/or supplemental birth certificate or certification of live birth from Jan. 1, 2008 through July 29, 2009.

Please consider this request as a Hawaii UIPA (Uniform Information Practices Act) request under section 92F-12.

Thank you.

30 posted on 07/30/2009 1:56:36 AM PDT by SteveH (First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.)
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To: MissTickly

For sure he isn’t the son of Malcolm x. He would have been welcomed as the second coming of Christ by the black community.


31 posted on 07/30/2009 1:56:39 AM PDT by Danae (I AM JIM THOMPSON - Conservative does not equal Republican. Conservative does not compromise.)
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To: screaminsunshine

LOL. Nice.


32 posted on 07/30/2009 1:57:00 AM PDT by MissTickly
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To: MissTickly

A law is not a law simply because you say it is a law.

Instead, you need to find legislation that defines NBC to be as you say and you are not able to do that.


33 posted on 07/30/2009 1:59:46 AM PDT by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: MissTickly

Citizen of the world Obama. America has made its biggest blunder. A culmination of 60 years of steep decline. Only a few of us see the looming disaster.


34 posted on 07/30/2009 2:01:42 AM PDT by screaminsunshine (!!)
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To: trumandogz

I don’t claim to know the definition I said. I can just read clearly yours is not it.

Now, I want to know what Hawaii thinks a NBC is.


35 posted on 07/30/2009 2:02:25 AM PDT by MissTickly
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To: SteveH

You are good! But will you send the exact same thing and use the word SUPPLEMENTARY Birth Certificate instead?

Way to go!

I will send what you wrote with the word SUPPLEMENTARY, too!


36 posted on 07/30/2009 2:04:59 AM PDT by MissTickly
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To: trumandogz

Sure it is. If Obama was not born on the island and has a british father and a mother who can not confer citizenship, that Obama had a late filed registration of live birth, he has an amended file and is not a Natural Born Citizen.

The point is, we don’t know what is in the file, and until we DO we can not say for sure that Obama is a Natural Born citizen under the FEDERAL defination of Natural Born.

In Hawaii the AMENDED birth Certificate, regardless of circumstances because Hawaii allowed the registration of foregin born babies, has the SAME legal weight as a baby born in a hospital with a Dr. signature on the thing. This means that according to Hawaiian standards an Amended Birth certificate gives Natural Born Status under Hawaiian law.

This of course does not meet FEDERAL standards for Natural Born.


37 posted on 07/30/2009 2:07:10 AM PDT by Danae (I AM JIM THOMPSON - Conservative does not equal Republican. Conservative does not compromise.)
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To: SteveH

I am referring to your wording on the other matter when I say add the word supplementary of course.

But this new request I love too!!


38 posted on 07/30/2009 2:07:33 AM PDT by MissTickly
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To: trumandogz

I have to add here that the press releases from Hawaii do say something like ‘in accordance with Hawaiian law’ thats a paraphrase, but it amounts to that.


39 posted on 07/30/2009 2:10:26 AM PDT by Danae (I AM JIM THOMPSON - Conservative does not equal Republican. Conservative does not compromise.)
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To: Danae
If Obama was not born on the island and has a british father and a mother who can not confer citizenship, that Obama had a late filed registration of live birth, he has an amended file and is not a Natural Born Citizen.

He was born in Hawaii and therefore is a natural born citizen.

However, if he were born on Mars to an American mother, he would also be a natural born citizen and a liar.

In Hawaii the AMENDED birth Certificate, regardless of circumstances because Hawaii allowed the registration of foregin born babies, has the SAME legal weight as a baby born in a hospital with a Dr. signature on the thing. This means that according to Hawaiian standards an Amended Birth certificate gives Natural Born Status under Hawaiian law.

No, the law you speak of was not passed until 1982 and states that babies born out of STATE not out of the country.

Here it is:

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0017_0008.htm

40 posted on 07/30/2009 2:17:40 AM PDT by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: trumandogz
Just another comment from a non-lawyer: While laws can't change the constitution, Title 8 does not refer to “natural born citizens.” It refers to “Citzens of the United States at birth.” The two are not equal. If one follows your assertion to its implications, anchor babies are natural born citizens. The reasoning, well explained in Law of Nations, for insisting on natural born citizenship for only the president and his backup is the presumption that allegiance is passed to the children from the parents. Obama is a poster boy for why that is important. Obama’s supposed dad was a Muslim Marxist whose goal was the overthrow of the young Christian democracy in Kenya for alignment with the USSR and Cuba.

'Citizen at Birth" means exactly what it says. That is a law. But being natural born cannot be granted by law. It is what the Law of Nations said it was: born on the soil and of parents who are its citizens. Citzens have all sorts of rights. Only natural born citizens can be president. Most citizens are natural born citizens. Obama may or may not be a citizen. Jindal is, but isn't natural born because his parents weren't when he was born. McCain can't be made natural born by law - which seems unfair, but was put in the constitution for our safety as a nation.

41 posted on 07/30/2009 2:26:59 AM PDT by Spaulding
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To: Spaulding

As I understand it “The Laws of Nations” is not a governing document.


42 posted on 07/30/2009 2:34:38 AM PDT by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: trumandogz

citizen at birth = natural born citizen (NBC)

The terminology citizen at birth has not been definitively determined to mean NBC as it pertains to eligibility for the president.

From the US State Dept. Foreign affairs manual in section regarding eligibility for president:

It has “never been determined definitively”..”whether a person who aquired US Citizenship by birth abroad is a natural born citizen.”

“The fact that someone is a natural born citizen pursuant to a statute does not necessarily imply that he or she is such a person for constitutional purposes.”

The more I look into the legal aspects of this, the more I think the Birth Certificate may serve the same purpose as the organ grinder’s monkey - distraction.

It is very possible that Obama is not eligible simply because his father was a British citizen. I am still researching that aspect.


43 posted on 07/30/2009 2:41:21 AM PDT by greeneyes (Moderation in defense of your country is NO virtue. Let Freedom Ring.)
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To: greeneyes

The Idea of the Kenyan birth is a dead end.

And until a Court rules that one must have two parents that were citizens at birth in order to be an NBC, Obama is an NBC.

And there is no way that a court, especially the SCOTUS is going to define NBC as only being persons who were born on US soil and have two US parents.

No way, not after the 14th Amendment.


44 posted on 07/30/2009 2:49:41 AM PDT by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: Danae
Danae, you are on the right track. But FEDERAL, to me, implies laws. The term Natural Born Citizen comes from our constitution, and can't be changed except by amendment, and that has been tried at least two dozen times. We don't really need Obama’s birth certificate, and Hawaii couldn't confer natural born citizenship on Obama, only nature can, and that was the whole idea.

Born of the soil and of parents who are its citizens is one of several statements of what it means to be natural born.
Don't get wrapped up in the variations which arose because of translations from the French of Law of Nations. You may see ‘Native born Citizen’ or ‘indigene’. They are the same. Citizen by birth is not the same. It is the meaning from Law of Nations, and only that meaning which counts. You can find it in Vattel’s Law of Nations, Chapter XIX, used by our founders as their principle reference in writing both the Declaration and our Constitution. How do I know? Because John Jay and Benjamin Franklin both said so. How do I know natural born citizen came from Vattel? Because Chief Justice John Marshall said so in The Venus, 12 U.S. 253 (1814). He said that Vattel’s definition was authoritative and quoted from The Law of Nations.
http://supreme.justia.com/us/12/253/case.html

Obama’s people want us to be confused. We needn't be. Because Obama Senior, Barry is ineligible to be president. It sounds fantastic, but Obama is a real radical, who said openly that while he thought there were some provisions in the constitution, it didn't let him do what he wanted to do. Law firms with which he has long been associated have written legal briefs and campaigned actively for another try and amending Article II Section 1 (search Sarah Herlihy, Chicago-Kent Law Review, Feb 2006, Amending the Natural Born ...). The interview was done in 2001 when Barry may have been lamenting the chances of overcoming his natural born problem to run for president.

45 posted on 07/30/2009 2:50:11 AM PDT by Spaulding
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To: Spaulding; Danae
The term Natural Born Citizen comes from our constitution, and can't be changed except by amendment, and that has been tried at least two dozen times.

Actually, the First Congress (1789-1790) passed Naturalization Act of 1790 which said the following:

…the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond Sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born Citizens…

Now this law has been repealed. The current Act in place is the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 (as amended, particularly in 1986), but the point is that the term "natural born" has been defined by Congress from the beginning.

Does any of that mean the Ø is qualified to be President by virtue of citizenship? Well, show me an actual birth certificate (either Kenyan or Hawaiian) and I'll know one way or the other.

46 posted on 07/30/2009 3:43:30 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: trumandogz

What’s wrong with the definition that the Senate used in Senate Resolution 511 — both parents had to be American citizens and birth on American soil? The Senate Resolution may not have the force of law but it is a studied determination based upon just exactly what the Senate, including Obama, decided that a natural born citizen was.


47 posted on 07/30/2009 5:50:14 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: MissTickly

I think this approach does have merit. By statute, Ms. Okubo cannot reveal any information that hasn’t been revealed by Obama, himself, in his COLB. Therefore, Ms. Okubo did not break the law when she revealed Obama was born in Hawaii — this information was already in the public domain by virtue of Obama’s COLB.

Now all that has to be done is ask her if Barack Obama Sr. is Barack Obama Jr’s biological father?

If she doesn’t answer, that would mean Barack Obama Sr. wasn’t junior’s biological father. If she does answer Barack Obama Sr. was junior’s biological father, this point has been verified.

This may even be the way Obama Jr. has decided to answer his critics as it relates to his birth certificate and thus, to his qualifications to be President — piecemeal, one item at a time.

Please, please note, however; this will not solve the issue. Nothing can possibly do that at this point without a thorough examination of the document by forensic document experts, but it’s a start, and it will show intent.

ex animo
davidfarrar


48 posted on 07/30/2009 7:35:29 AM PDT by DavidFarrar
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To: trumandogz

Spaulding sent me this, I think he is right.

Danae, you are on the right track. But FEDERAL, to me, implies laws. The term Natural Born Citizen comes from our constitution, and can’t be changed except by amendment, and that has been tried at least two dozen times. We don’t really need Obama’s birth certificate, and Hawaii couldn’t confer natural born citizenship on Obama, only nature can, and that was the whole idea.

Born of the soil and of parents who are its citizens is one of several statements of what it means to be natural born.
Don’t get wrapped up in the variations which arose because of translations from the French of Law of Nations. You may see ‘Native born Citizen’ or ‘indigene’. They are the same. Citizen by birth is not the same. It is the meaning from Law of Nations, and only that meaning which counts. You can find it in Vattel’s Law of Nations, Chapter XIX, used by our founders as their principle reference in writing both the Declaration and our Constitution. How do I know? Because John Jay and Benjamin Franklin both said so. How do I know natural born citizen came from Vattel? Because Chief Justice John Marshall said so in The Venus, 12 U.S. 253 (1814). He said that Vattel’s definition was authoritative and quoted from The Law of Nations.
http://supreme.justia.com/us/12/253/case.html

Post: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2304248/posts Comment 37


49 posted on 07/30/2009 10:20:37 AM PDT by Danae (I AM JIM THOMPSON - Conservative does not equal Republican. Conservative does not compromise.)
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To: MissTickly

What makes you think Hawaii even has or needs a legal definition of “natural born citizen”, as opposed to just “citizen?”


50 posted on 07/30/2009 10:24:08 AM PDT by Sloth (Irony: Freepers who call Ron Paul a "nut" but swallow all the birth certificate conspiracy crap.)
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