Skip to comments.Italian group claims to debunk Shroud of Turin
Posted on 10/05/2009 6:17:42 PM PDT by JoeProBono
Scientists have reproduced the Shroud of Turin revered as the cloth that covered Jesus in the tomb and say the experiment proves the relic was man-made, a group of Italian debunkers claimed Monday
The shroud bears the figure of a crucified man, complete with blood seeping out of nailed hands and feet, and believers say Christ's image was recorded on the linen fibers at the time of his resurrection.
Scientists have reproduced the shroud using materials and methods that were available in the 14th century, the Italian Committee for Checking Claims on the Paranormal said.
The group said in a statement this is further evidence the shroud is a medieval forgery. In 1988, scientists used radiocarbon dating to determine it was made in the 13th or 14th century......
(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...
I saw a show on TV once where one of these Italian guys reproduced the shroud by putting a cloth on a bronze bust and then throwing it in a pizza oven for 30 minutes at 350 degrees. I kid you not. Didn’t look nothing like the shroud but it probably smelled good while it was cooking.
That image on the shroud doesn't look too marred to me. If it was truly the image of Jesus, then you shouldn't be able to recognize it as human.
From the article...”The research was funded by the debunking group and by an Italian organization of atheists and agnostics, he said.”
Ulterior motive of this effort is of course to counter any claims that this shroud actually shows the “image” of Jesus Christ which might possibly have been caused during the resurrection “process”.....
Not that the Shroud of Turin is the reason for any Christian’s faith in Jesus Christ.
It certainly is not mine.
However, it is not beyond the scope of rational thinking to consider that the image on the shroud might actually have been formed during Christ’s resurrection which occurred in a way and through a process that none of us can comprehend.
Leave it to the Atheists and Agnostics, however, to be so disturbed by something/someone they allegedly don’t believe in to go on the attack and fund some group who want to prove the Shroud was/is a fake....
If Jesus Christ did not rise from the dead, dear Atheists, then there is no need for you to do anything. You have no need to go on the “attack” against something which you cannot prove to be untrue....no matter whether the Shroud is real or, as you so hope is true, a fake.
If on the other hand, Jesus Christ DID rise from the dead, ascended into heaven, from where He will come to JUDGE the quick and the dead....then you have a great deal to be concerned about.
I would suggest that is exactly what this is all about.
I think the Shroud is kind of cool, in a weird way.
But, these things bother me:
I thought first-century Jews were interred after the mourners wrapped the body in mummy-like strips and coated or even piled it high with spices. And also, the Gospels talk about a separate head cloth.
Finally, I think the figure in the Shroud looks just too Anglo — tall and lanky — to be Mediterranean.
The group said in a statement this is further evidence the shroud is a medieval forgery. In 1988, scientists used radiocarbon dating on a non-representative, patched corner of the Shroud, in violation of previously agreed-upon protocols to grasp at straws for a way to putatitvely determine it was made in the 13th or 14th century ,while neglecting other features of the sample tested, including fabric content and weave pattern, and forgetting about the presence of pollen on the Shroud found only in the area the historical Jesus lived in, and which is released in the Spring, around the time of year the actual crucifixion took place.
A major circle-jerk was scheduled to give militant atheists a break from their preoccupation with auto-fellation.
There, all fixed.
Good job but it could have been done by a medieval debunker.
It’s an old saw by now, but I’ll say it again anyhow.
Whether or not the Turin shroud image represents a genuine supernatural event, we would all do well to remember to revere and put our trust for needed eternal salvation in the Savior, recorded for all posterity in the Bible, that many say the Shroud depicts.
Maybe Peter saw a print, but it’s also true he had heard from the women who had encountered the risen Jesus, and knew of the Pharisees’ diligence to keep the body from being filched. (The Sadducees wouldn’t have cared since their world view didn’t include things like resurrections.) “What had happened” surely included the entire circumstances.
The argument that this item was produced in the 13th century necessitates belief in technological prowess not otherwise demonstrated in any other artifact handed down from that time.
It is conceivable that the Romans had the talent and science to produce the Shroud of Turin in the 1st century, but again, they knew nothing of reverse positives, etc.
Atheists and Agnostics who simply don't cotton to supernatural origins are forced to admit that the Shroud came from The Great Mothership!/s
The Shroud of Turin has never been dated. Some cotton cloth was dated. However that was a useless endeavor.
COLUMBUS, Ohio, August 15, 2008 "In his presentation today at The Ohio State Universitys Blackwell Center, Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL) chemist, Robert Villarreal, disclosed startling new findings proving that the sample of material used in 1988 to Carbon-14 (C-14) date the Shroud of Turin, which categorized the cloth as a medieval fake, could not have been from the original linen cloth because it was cotton. According to Villarreal, who lead the LANL team working on the project, thread samples they examined from directly adjacent to the C-14 sampling area were definitely not linen and, instead, matched cotton. Villarreal pointed out that the  age-dating process failed to recognize one of the first rules of analytical chemistry that any sample taken for characterization of an area or population must necessarily be representative of the whole. The part must be representative of the whole. Our analyses of the three thread samples taken from the Raes and C-14 sampling corner showed that this was not the case. Villarreal also revealed that, during testing, one of the threads came apart in the middle forming two separate pieces. A surface resin, that may have been holding the two pieces together, fell off and was analyzed. Surprisingly, the two ends of the thread had different chemical compositions, lending credence to the theory that the threads were spliced together during a repair."
"LANLs work confirms the research published in Thermochimica Acta (Jan. 2005) by the late Raymond Rogers, a chemist who had studied actual C-14 samples and concluded the sample was not part of the original cloth possibly due to the area having been repaired. This hypothesis was presented by M. Sue Benford and Joseph G. Marino in Orvieto, Italy in 2000. Benford and Marino proposed that a 16th Century patch of cotton/linen material was skillfully spliced into the 1st Century original Shroud cloth in the region ultimately used for dating. The intermixed threads combined to give the dates found by the labs ranging between 1260 and 1390 AD. Benford and Marino contend that this expert repair was necessary to disguise an unauthorized relic taken from the corner of the cloth. A paper presented today at the conference by Benford and Marino, and to be published in the July/August issue of the international journal Chemistry Today, provided additional corroborating evidence for the repair theory."
One question might be whether this relic were the result of a later miracle rather than actually being the original shroud. With all the chaos that the early church underwent, it would have been easy for the original shroud to have been destroyed. It doesn’t take much exposure to the elements to destroy linen.
Yes, they can debunk all they like. Do they think it’s going to change anyone’s faith? If it does, they had none to begin with.
Did you not notice my /s?
The Atheists want to argue that this could be readily done in the 13th century ~ even though we have ONLY ONE ITEM like it from that time (when it really did exist ~ right? This thing was around in the 1200s, 1300s, 1400s, and even the 1900s). Medieval people were not familiar with photographic techniques or photos.
A similar argument has been made for the Koran ~ that it was written in Classical Arabic. Not only that, it was the first book done in that tongue. The problem is with the second book ~ that didn't happen for another 125 years.
Nope, it's improbable that the Koran was written in Arabic ~ that written language didn't exist for another century or so.
Here it's highly improbable for the Shroud of Turin to have been created in the Middle Ages, and even if the Atheists could come up with a perfect duplication using common household ingredients of the time, WHERE IS THE SECOND ONE!
The moment the first photographer created the first photograph he immediately set about creating the SECOND PHOTOGRAPH!
He didn't wait another 700 years to create the second picture!
He lacked the foresight of a collector?
Just joshing. I know the arguments. The latest "scientist" to debunk the Shroud didn't even know the C14 dating had already been debunked. Numerous times.
Dunno.....still looks like Frank Zappa to me.
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Look, some things are so obvious. The first guy to create a photograph (the modern way) undoubtedly thought of “baseball cards”
Yup, Yankee baseball cards to be exact.
These people are so pathetic - by now, there's not many that don't know that the carbon dating was off because they took it from samples of the patches applied after the fire in about 1200.
One can only wonder if they didn't deliberately take the samples from there, knowing what it would show.
Now that has been thoroughly debunked and the new scrutiny enforces the 2000 year old date even stronger.
The photo of this newest feeble attempt is so pitiful -
Don’t forget they were in a rush to inter Christ because of the Sabbath. The women went back later with more herbs and things to do the job right.
I believe I once read that the Jews from Christ’s locale were fairer than usual. He was probably thin; maybe that makes Him look tall? How tall is the body from the Shroud?
you mean other than the swollen cheek bone, the broken nose (forensic findings), the back scourging, the nail wounds in the wrists - which is correct on two counts: at the time, the wrist was also considered part of the hand and so called - and the physical fact that if the nails has been in the palms, the weight of the body would have ripped through...
Then there's the long braid down the back, something I have never seen anyone yet address.
There is good evidence that Jesus belonged to the Nazorite Priesthood - This is not the same as Nazorean, native of Nazareth. Numbers 6:5 regarding the Nazorite vows - "there shall no razor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow."
They wore their long hair in a braid down their back.
Wow - there is SO much reading you can do if you’re really curious -
maybe start with Barrie Schwortz’s site 0 he was one of the scientists in the 1978 team
Let me guess. You haven't done much study/research on the Shroud...
There is no evidence that First Century Jews were wrapped in mummy like wrappings. Actual evidence is that they were covered with a sheet like cloth, if the family could afford it, or just the face covered with a sweat cloth and the limbs bound with linen ties to keep them from flopping in death. The Jaw would also be bound closed with a cloth binding under the chin and over the head to keep the mouth closed. It may be this jaw binding that is the separate head cloth mentioned in the Bible.
After about a year or so, when the body had rotted away, the family would enter the tomb, collect the bones, and place them in a central bone repository called an ossuary where previous family dead had been placed, this was called being "gathered unto the ancestors." Wrappings as you describe would be counter productive to doing this.
This idea that Jews were buried ala the Egyptians in a mummy like wrapping is a late confabulation of the mis-translation of the Greek gospels that did not properly differentiate the Grave clothes (Sindon - sheet or shroud, Othonia - grave clothes/bindings, Sudarion - sweat cloth or face cloth) because English did not have so many words to describe the Greek terms, along with the popular knowledge of the well preserved Egyptian burial practices that were being discovered. People assumed that what was done in Egypt was also done in Israel and Judea.
They did indeed use large amounts of herbs and spices, if they could afford them, along with oils to cleanse and anoint the body. There was one exception to the cleansing... if the person died a violent death, every effort was made to keep the blood with the body. If the body was covered with blood, it was left in place.
Perhaps... but not with the wealth of information that is encoded in the Shroud. Too much is information that such a hoaxer could not have known.
But the image on the shroud is clearly a recognizable human. The prophecy’s in the Word of God say that he will be unrecognizable as a human.
No, actually Linen is very tough material. It was not uncommon for linen bed clothes to last for generations. Often the linens were major portions of the inheritance of a family's wealth. This was when a single bed sheet could represent the hard work of several tradesmen, growers, spinners, fullers, weavers, dyers, bleachers. A cloth like the Shroud, over 14 feet long, woven on a wall loom, could take a skilled weaver several weeks worth of labor to create.
Thanks for the ping, Swordmaker.
Works of art do not exist in a vacuum, an island unto themselves. They always show signs of similar works of the period. The image on the Shroud bears absolutely no similarities to other works of the Centuries surrounding the proposed creation dates of 1290 to 1360 AD. If it is a work of art, then there would be other similar examples. There aren't. In fact, the entire shroud flies in the face of the sensibilities of the times where in Art, Jesus was never shown nude.
In household use true; I am thinking of a scenario where exposed to mold and mildew. For example the way the prophet Ezekiel (iirc without checking the bible first) got a linen sash or belt, then stowed it at God’s direction in the rocks by a river. Later he was told to go fetch it, and the way it had been ruined was used by God as an example of how Israel had become useless to Him.
Nope. He thought of naked ladies... just as Edison turned out some movies of naked ladies. Pornography predates almost all other uses of still photography and motion pictures.
Best case measurement is 5' 10 1/4", not even one sigma away from the average height of mature male skeletons surveyed in 1st Century Jewish cemeteries, 5' 8 3/8". To put that in perspective, the average 21st Century American male is 5' 8 1/2"
It's been address before... even here on FreeRepublic. I know because I addressed it. The braid was also kept oiled...
There are very few molds or mildews that attack Linen being almost pure cellulose... but it can be destroyed by the exudates from rotting bodies. Linen was the choice for sail cloth because of this ability to resist mildew and mold... but it will still rot eventually.
Anyhow, the point was that if linen were lost in a crumbled structure or among rocks, it wouldn’t stick around all that long. One of nature’s answers to biodegrading cellulose is insects (e.g. termites or perhaps more properly the micro-organisms that live in the guts of termites, without which the cellulose they eat would do them no more good than so much inert material).
An oiled braid... wouldn’t that create a grease spot if this were an actual area of contact?
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