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Italian group claims to debunk Shroud of Turin
sfgate ^ | October 5, 2009 | ARIEL DAVID

Posted on 10/05/2009 6:17:42 PM PDT by JoeProBono

Scientists have reproduced the Shroud of Turin — revered as the cloth that covered Jesus in the tomb — and say the experiment proves the relic was man-made, a group of Italian debunkers claimed Monday

The shroud bears the figure of a crucified man, complete with blood seeping out of nailed hands and feet, and believers say Christ's image was recorded on the linen fibers at the time of his resurrection.

Scientists have reproduced the shroud using materials and methods that were available in the 14th century, the Italian Committee for Checking Claims on the Paranormal said.

The group said in a statement this is further evidence the shroud is a medieval forgery. In 1988, scientists used radiocarbon dating to determine it was made in the 13th or 14th century......

(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...


TOPICS: Conspiracy; Religion; Science
KEYWORDS: bravosierra; godsgravesglyphs; shroudofturin
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1 posted on 10/05/2009 6:17:42 PM PDT by JoeProBono
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To: All

2 posted on 10/05/2009 6:20:11 PM PDT by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet)
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To: All

3 posted on 10/05/2009 6:22:16 PM PDT by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet)
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To: JoeProBono

I saw a show on TV once where one of these Italian guys reproduced the shroud by putting a cloth on a bronze bust and then throwing it in a pizza oven for 30 minutes at 350 degrees. I kid you not. Didn’t look nothing like the shroud but it probably smelled good while it was cooking.


4 posted on 10/05/2009 6:23:51 PM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (America! We're spending our grandchildren's inheritance!)
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To: JoeProBono
Hmmmmm. Everyone knows that carbon dating is in question because of where they took a sample from and the fact that the shroud had smoke damage from a fire. Personally, I think there's so much that's incredible about the shroud that it's hard not to believe in it. Hence, my new tagline.
5 posted on 10/05/2009 6:24:05 PM PDT by Melian ("frequently in error, rarely in doubt")
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To: Melian

6 posted on 10/05/2009 6:35:02 PM PDT by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet)
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To: JoeProBono; Swordmaker
Like, *PING*, Sword.

Thanks, Joe.

Cheers!

7 posted on 10/05/2009 6:37:41 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: JoeProBono
From Isaiah, referring to the coming Messiah: "his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind"—NASB

That image on the shroud doesn't look too marred to me. If it was truly the image of Jesus, then you shouldn't be able to recognize it as human.

8 posted on 10/05/2009 6:39:30 PM PDT by liege
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To: JoeProBono

From the article...”The research was funded by the debunking group and by an Italian organization of atheists and agnostics, he said.”

Ulterior motive of this effort is of course to counter any claims that this shroud actually shows the “image” of Jesus Christ which might possibly have been caused during the resurrection “process”.....

Not that the Shroud of Turin is the reason for any Christian’s faith in Jesus Christ.

It certainly is not mine.

However, it is not beyond the scope of rational thinking to consider that the image on the shroud might actually have been formed during Christ’s resurrection which occurred in a way and through a process that none of us can comprehend.

Leave it to the Atheists and Agnostics, however, to be so disturbed by something/someone they allegedly don’t believe in to go on the attack and fund some group who want to prove the Shroud was/is a fake....

If Jesus Christ did not rise from the dead, dear Atheists, then there is no need for you to do anything. You have no need to go on the “attack” against something which you cannot prove to be untrue....no matter whether the Shroud is real or, as you so hope is true, a fake.

If on the other hand, Jesus Christ DID rise from the dead, ascended into heaven, from where He will come to JUDGE the quick and the dead....then you have a great deal to be concerned about.

I would suggest that is exactly what this is all about.


9 posted on 10/05/2009 6:42:05 PM PDT by Freedom'sWorthIt (Obama's Deathcare ---- many will suffer and/or die unnecessarily.)
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To: liege

Bingo!..........


10 posted on 10/05/2009 6:46:47 PM PDT by Red Badger (The Zero has more airtime than Michael Jordan...........)
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To: JoeProBono
So when is this group going to grow some nads and lets say prove that Mohammad did not fly away on his horse or that he was a pedophile? Na I didn't think so.
11 posted on 10/05/2009 6:48:15 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Romak 7.62X54MM, AK47 7.62X39MM, LARGO 9X23MM, HAPINESS IS A WARM GUN BANG BANG YEA YEA)
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To: liege

I think the Shroud is kind of cool, in a weird way.

But, these things bother me:

I thought first-century Jews were interred after the mourners wrapped the body in mummy-like strips and coated or even piled it high with spices. And also, the Gospels talk about a separate head cloth.

Finally, I think the figure in the Shroud looks just too Anglo — tall and lanky — to be Mediterranean.


12 posted on 10/05/2009 6:51:23 PM PDT by Cloverfarm (Where are we going, and why are we in a hand-basket?)
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To: Cloverfarm

13 posted on 10/05/2009 6:55:27 PM PDT by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet)
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To: JoeProBono
Scientists have reproduced a few qualitative naked-eye features of the shroud while failing utterly to reproduce known wet-bench chemical and sprectographic characteristics of the *actual* shroud and using materials and methods that were available in the 14th century the presence of which on the actual shroud has not been confirmed, but has been ruled out as a component of the image on the Shroud, the Italian Committee for Checking Claims on the Paranormal said.

The group said in a statement this is further evidence the shroud is a medieval forgery. In 1988, scientists used radiocarbon dating on a non-representative, patched corner of the Shroud, in violation of previously agreed-upon protocols to grasp at straws for a way to putatitvely determine it was made in the 13th or 14th century ,while neglecting other features of the sample tested, including fabric content and weave pattern, and forgetting about the presence of pollen on the Shroud found only in the area the historical Jesus lived in, and which is released in the Spring, around the time of year the actual crucifixion took place.

A major circle-jerk was scheduled to give militant atheists a break from their preoccupation with auto-fellation.

There, all fixed.

Cheers!

14 posted on 10/05/2009 6:57:12 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: grey_whiskers

Good job but it could have been done by a medieval debunker.


15 posted on 10/05/2009 7:00:21 PM PDT by jwalsh07 (Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what you can do for Obama.)
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To: JoeProBono
"But Peter got up and ran to the tomb, bent down, and saw the burial cloths alone; then he went home amazed at what had happened." Luke 24,12 NAB I have always believed this referenced the shroud. What in the tomb would have left him amazed at what had happened? They could have stolen the body, as far as he was concerned, but the burial cloths told the story, which left him amazed. Well, this is my belief anyways. My faith does not depend on this being real or not. I believe in Christ because he is real, not because of an object. But you have to admit it is pretty cool.
16 posted on 10/05/2009 7:01:59 PM PDT by JPII Be Not Afraid
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To: Alamo-Girl; albee; AnalogReigns; AnAmericanMother; Angelas; AniGrrl; annalex; annyokie; ...
Another article on the Italian "scientist" who claims to have "duplicated" the Shroud of Turin—PING!

If you want on or off the Shroud of Turin Ping List, Freepmail me.


17 posted on 10/05/2009 7:02:06 PM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: JoeProBono; All

It’s an old saw by now, but I’ll say it again anyhow.

Whether or not the Turin shroud image represents a genuine supernatural event, we would all do well to remember to revere and put our trust for needed eternal salvation in the Savior, recorded for all posterity in the Bible, that many say the Shroud depicts.


18 posted on 10/05/2009 7:09:01 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (ACORN: Absolute Criminal Organization of Reprobate Nuisances)
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To: FlingWingFlyer

19 posted on 10/05/2009 7:11:45 PM PDT by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet)
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To: grey_whiskers

20 posted on 10/05/2009 7:13:22 PM PDT by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet)
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To: JPII Be Not Afraid

Maybe Peter saw a print, but it’s also true he had heard from the women who had encountered the risen Jesus, and knew of the Pharisees’ diligence to keep the body from being filched. (The Sadducees wouldn’t have cared since their world view didn’t include things like resurrections.) “What had happened” surely included the entire circumstances.


21 posted on 10/05/2009 7:15:07 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (ACORN: Absolute Criminal Organization of Reprobate Nuisances)
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To: jwalsh07
It's a photographic negative, or reverse positive. That makes it absolutely unique in the world until the 18th century.

The argument that this item was produced in the 13th century necessitates belief in technological prowess not otherwise demonstrated in any other artifact handed down from that time.

It is conceivable that the Romans had the talent and science to produce the Shroud of Turin in the 1st century, but again, they knew nothing of reverse positives, etc.

Atheists and Agnostics who simply don't cotton to supernatural origins are forced to admit that the Shroud came from The Great Mothership!/s

22 posted on 10/05/2009 7:17:59 PM PDT by muawiyah (qui)
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To: muawiyah
I think you misread my sarcasm. Or more likely my satire sucked.

The Shroud of Turin has never been dated. Some cotton cloth was dated. However that was a useless endeavor.

COLUMBUS, Ohio, August 15, 2008 — "In his presentation today at The Ohio State University’s Blackwell Center, Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL) chemist, Robert Villarreal, disclosed startling new findings proving that the sample of material used in 1988 to Carbon-14 (C-14) date the Shroud of Turin, which categorized the cloth as a medieval fake, could not have been from the original linen cloth because it was cotton. According to Villarreal, who lead the LANL team working on the project, thread samples they examined from directly adjacent to the C-14 sampling area were “definitely not linen” and, instead, matched cotton. Villarreal pointed out that “the [1988] age-dating process failed to recognize one of the first rules of analytical chemistry that any sample taken for characterization of an area or population must necessarily be representative of the whole. The part must be representative of the whole. Our analyses of the three thread samples taken from the Raes and C-14 sampling corner showed that this was not the case.” Villarreal also revealed that, during testing, one of the threads came apart in the middle forming two separate pieces. A surface resin, that may have been holding the two pieces together, fell off and was analyzed. Surprisingly, the two ends of the thread had different chemical compositions, lending credence to the theory that the threads were spliced together during a repair."

"LANL’s work confirms the research published in Thermochimica Acta (Jan. 2005) by the late Raymond Rogers, a chemist who had studied actual C-14 samples and concluded the sample was not part of the original cloth possibly due to the area having been repaired. This hypothesis was presented by M. Sue Benford and Joseph G. Marino in Orvieto, Italy in 2000. Benford and Marino proposed that a 16th Century patch of cotton/linen material was skillfully spliced into the 1st Century original Shroud cloth in the region ultimately used for dating. The intermixed threads combined to give the dates found by the labs ranging between 1260 and 1390 AD. Benford and Marino contend that this expert repair was necessary to disguise an unauthorized relic taken from the corner of the cloth. A paper presented today at the conference by Benford and Marino, and to be published in the July/August issue of the international journal Chemistry Today, provided additional corroborating evidence for the repair theory."


23 posted on 10/05/2009 7:21:43 PM PDT by jwalsh07 (Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what you can do for Obama.)
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To: muawiyah

One question might be whether this relic were the result of a later miracle rather than actually being the original shroud. With all the chaos that the early church underwent, it would have been easy for the original shroud to have been destroyed. It doesn’t take much exposure to the elements to destroy linen.


24 posted on 10/05/2009 7:22:12 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (ACORN: Absolute Criminal Organization of Reprobate Nuisances)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

Yes, they can debunk all they like. Do they think it’s going to change anyone’s faith? If it does, they had none to begin with.


25 posted on 10/05/2009 7:29:01 PM PDT by ReneeLynn (Socialism is SO yesterday. Fascism, it*s the new black. Mmm Mmm Mmm.)
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To: jwalsh07
You fail to recognize the fact that I've read every book published or article written on this topic ~ and in more than one language.

Did you not notice my /s?

The Atheists want to argue that this could be readily done in the 13th century ~ even though we have ONLY ONE ITEM like it from that time (when it really did exist ~ right? This thing was around in the 1200s, 1300s, 1400s, and even the 1900s). Medieval people were not familiar with photographic techniques or photos.

A similar argument has been made for the Koran ~ that it was written in Classical Arabic. Not only that, it was the first book done in that tongue. The problem is with the second book ~ that didn't happen for another 125 years.

Nope, it's improbable that the Koran was written in Arabic ~ that written language didn't exist for another century or so.

Here it's highly improbable for the Shroud of Turin to have been created in the Middle Ages, and even if the Atheists could come up with a perfect duplication using common household ingredients of the time, WHERE IS THE SECOND ONE!

The moment the first photographer created the first photograph he immediately set about creating the SECOND PHOTOGRAPH!

He didn't wait another 700 years to create the second picture!

26 posted on 10/05/2009 7:29:22 PM PDT by muawiyah (qui)
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To: muawiyah
He didn't wait another 700 years to create the second picture!

He lacked the foresight of a collector?

Just joshing. I know the arguments. The latest "scientist" to debunk the Shroud didn't even know the C14 dating had already been debunked. Numerous times.

27 posted on 10/05/2009 7:33:44 PM PDT by jwalsh07 (Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what you can do for Obama.)
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To: JoeProBono

Dunno.....still looks like Frank Zappa to me.


28 posted on 10/05/2009 7:34:13 PM PDT by Some Fat Guy in L.A. (Nope. Not gonna do it.)
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To: JoeProBono; ApplegateRanch; Swordmaker

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Thanks JoeProBono. Just adding to the catalog, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
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29 posted on 10/05/2009 7:38:03 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/__Since Jan 3, 2004__Profile updated Monday, January 12, 2009)
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To: jwalsh07

Look, some things are so obvious. The first guy to create a photograph (the modern way) undoubtedly thought of “baseball cards”


30 posted on 10/05/2009 7:42:09 PM PDT by muawiyah (qui)
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To: muawiyah

Yup, Yankee baseball cards to be exact.


31 posted on 10/05/2009 7:43:09 PM PDT by jwalsh07 (Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what you can do for Obama.)
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To: JoeProBono
Right - let's see if it passes this test.

These people are so pathetic - by now, there's not many that don't know that the carbon dating was off because they took it from samples of the patches applied after the fire in about 1200.

One can only wonder if they didn't deliberately take the samples from there, knowing what it would show.

Now that has been thoroughly debunked and the new scrutiny enforces the 2000 year old date even stronger.

The photo of this newest feeble attempt is so pitiful -

http://www.ikonart.gr/en/monadiko.htm

http://www.shroudofturin4journalists.com/pantocrator.htm

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ikon/athos10.gif

32 posted on 10/05/2009 9:22:18 PM PDT by maine-iac7 ("He has the right to criticize who has the heart to help" LINCOLN)
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To: JoeProBono
My favorite iconic painting of the Master - painted hundreds of years before the date of the phony carbon dating

http://www.shroudofturin4journalists.com/pantoc24.jpg

33 posted on 10/05/2009 9:30:01 PM PDT by maine-iac7 ("He has the right to criticize who has the heart to help" LINCOLN)
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To: Cloverfarm

Don’t forget they were in a rush to inter Christ because of the Sabbath. The women went back later with more herbs and things to do the job right.

I believe I once read that the Jews from Christ’s locale were fairer than usual. He was probably thin; maybe that makes Him look tall? How tall is the body from the Shroud?


34 posted on 10/05/2009 9:45:02 PM PDT by Melian ("frequently in error, rarely in doubt")
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To: liege
That image on the shroud doesn't look too marred to me. ...

you mean other than the swollen cheek bone, the broken nose (forensic findings), the back scourging, the nail wounds in the wrists - which is correct on two counts: at the time, the wrist was also considered part of the hand and so called - and the physical fact that if the nails has been in the palms, the weight of the body would have ripped through...

Then there's the long braid down the back, something I have never seen anyone yet address.

There is good evidence that Jesus belonged to the Nazorite Priesthood - This is not the same as Nazorean, native of Nazareth. Numbers 6:5 regarding the Nazorite vows - "there shall no razor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow."

They wore their long hair in a braid down their back.

35 posted on 10/05/2009 10:09:52 PM PDT by maine-iac7 ("He has the right to criticize who has the heart to help" LINCOLN)
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To: Cloverfarm

Wow - there is SO much reading you can do if you’re really curious -

maybe start with Barrie Schwortz’s site 0 he was one of the scientists in the 1978 team

http://www.shroud.com/


36 posted on 10/05/2009 10:15:54 PM PDT by maine-iac7 ("He has the right to criticize who has the heart to help" LINCOLN)
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To: jwalsh07
Good job but it could have been done by a medieval debunker.

Let me guess. You haven't done much study/research on the Shroud...

37 posted on 10/05/2009 10:18:43 PM PDT by maine-iac7 ("He has the right to criticize who has the heart to help" LINCOLN)
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To: Cloverfarm
I thought first-century Jews were interred after the mourners wrapped the body in mummy-like strips and coated or even piled it high with spices. And also, the Gospels talk about a separate head cloth.

There is no evidence that First Century Jews were wrapped in mummy like wrappings. Actual evidence is that they were covered with a sheet like cloth, if the family could afford it, or just the face covered with a sweat cloth and the limbs bound with linen ties to keep them from flopping in death. The Jaw would also be bound closed with a cloth binding under the chin and over the head to keep the mouth closed. It may be this jaw binding that is the separate head cloth mentioned in the Bible.

After about a year or so, when the body had rotted away, the family would enter the tomb, collect the bones, and place them in a central bone repository called an ossuary where previous family dead had been placed, this was called being "gathered unto the ancestors." Wrappings as you describe would be counter productive to doing this.

This idea that Jews were buried ala the Egyptians in a mummy like wrapping is a late confabulation of the mis-translation of the Greek gospels that did not properly differentiate the Grave clothes (Sindon - sheet or shroud, Othonia - grave clothes/bindings, Sudarion - sweat cloth or face cloth) because English did not have so many words to describe the Greek terms, along with the popular knowledge of the well preserved Egyptian burial practices that were being discovered. People assumed that what was done in Egypt was also done in Israel and Judea.

They did indeed use large amounts of herbs and spices, if they could afford them, along with oils to cleanse and anoint the body. There was one exception to the cleansing... if the person died a violent death, every effort was made to keep the blood with the body. If the body was covered with blood, it was left in place.

38 posted on 10/05/2009 10:22:11 PM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: jwalsh07
Good job but it could have been done by a medieval debunker.

Perhaps... but not with the wealth of information that is encoded in the Shroud. Too much is information that such a hoaxer could not have known.

39 posted on 10/05/2009 10:23:50 PM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: maine-iac7

But the image on the shroud is clearly a recognizable human. The prophecy’s in the Word of God say that he will be unrecognizable as a human.


40 posted on 10/05/2009 10:29:42 PM PDT by liege
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To: HiTech RedNeck
It doesn’t take much exposure to the elements to destroy linen.

No, actually Linen is very tough material. It was not uncommon for linen bed clothes to last for generations. Often the linens were major portions of the inheritance of a family's wealth. This was when a single bed sheet could represent the hard work of several tradesmen, growers, spinners, fullers, weavers, dyers, bleachers. A cloth like the Shroud, over 14 feet long, woven on a wall loom, could take a skilled weaver several weeks worth of labor to create.

41 posted on 10/05/2009 10:30:14 PM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: Swordmaker

Thanks for the ping, Swordmaker.


42 posted on 10/05/2009 10:32:32 PM PDT by csense
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To: muawiyah
Here it's highly improbable for the Shroud of Turin to have been created in the Middle Ages, and even if the Atheists could come up with a perfect duplication using common household ingredients of the time, WHERE IS THE SECOND ONE!

Works of art do not exist in a vacuum, an island unto themselves. They always show signs of similar works of the period. The image on the Shroud bears absolutely no similarities to other works of the Centuries surrounding the proposed creation dates of 1290 to 1360 AD. If it is a work of art, then there would be other similar examples. There aren't. In fact, the entire shroud flies in the face of the sensibilities of the times where in Art, Jesus was never shown nude.

43 posted on 10/05/2009 10:35:07 PM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: Swordmaker

In household use true; I am thinking of a scenario where exposed to mold and mildew. For example the way the prophet Ezekiel (iirc without checking the bible first) got a linen sash or belt, then stowed it at God’s direction in the rocks by a river. Later he was told to go fetch it, and the way it had been ruined was used by God as an example of how Israel had become useless to Him.


44 posted on 10/05/2009 10:35:18 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (ACORN: Absolute Criminal Organization of Reprobate Nuisances)
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To: muawiyah
Look, some things are so obvious. The first guy to create a photograph (the modern way) undoubtedly thought of “baseball cards”

Nope. He thought of naked ladies... just as Edison turned out some movies of naked ladies. Pornography predates almost all other uses of still photography and motion pictures.

45 posted on 10/05/2009 10:37:28 PM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: Melian
How tall is the body from the Shroud?

Best case measurement is 5' 10 1/4", not even one sigma away from the average height of mature male skeletons surveyed in 1st Century Jewish cemeteries, 5' 8 3/8". To put that in perspective, the average 21st Century American male is 5' 8 1/2"

46 posted on 10/05/2009 10:41:28 PM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: maine-iac7
Then there's the long braid down the back, something I have never seen anyone yet address.

It's been address before... even here on FreeRepublic. I know because I addressed it. The braid was also kept oiled...

47 posted on 10/05/2009 10:43:25 PM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
I am thinking of a scenario where exposed to mold and mildew.

There are very few molds or mildews that attack Linen being almost pure cellulose... but it can be destroyed by the exudates from rotting bodies. Linen was the choice for sail cloth because of this ability to resist mildew and mold... but it will still rot eventually.

48 posted on 10/05/2009 10:49:36 PM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: Swordmaker

Anyhow, the point was that if linen were lost in a crumbled structure or among rocks, it wouldn’t stick around all that long. One of nature’s answers to biodegrading cellulose is insects (e.g. termites or perhaps more properly the micro-organisms that live in the guts of termites, without which the cellulose they eat would do them no more good than so much inert material).


49 posted on 10/05/2009 10:54:00 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (ACORN: Absolute Criminal Organization of Reprobate Nuisances)
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To: Swordmaker

An oiled braid... wouldn’t that create a grease spot if this were an actual area of contact?


50 posted on 10/05/2009 10:58:58 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (ACORN: Absolute Criminal Organization of Reprobate Nuisances)
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