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QUESTIONS CONCERNING GUN SHOWS AND THE NEWS

Posted on 04/19/2013 6:37:34 AM PDT by 7thson

I have some questions I would like to ask and get a general idea of the thoughts of my fellow Freepers

Last night I am watching O’Reilly – please no comments on why. It’s a long story. Anyway, he is talking to Beckel about his unConstitutional law he would like to see the government implement. As a side note, how does he reconcile in his mind when he states the government can’t protect people and then in the next breath wants the government to enact another law to make it more powerful. Anyway, Beckel makes a statement that people living in DC go to a Virginia, buy seven guns at a gun show, and then return to DC to sell them on the street.

My question – in Virginia, can you purchase a firearm, much less seven, at any gun show from any licensed dealer without undergoing a background check or filling out paperwork? I know that in Maryland you have to fill out the same paperwork as you do in the store. I have not been to a gun show in Virginia so I do not know. However, I would surmise that if those selling the firearms are FFLs, then you have to fill out paperwork. Am I correct in that statement?

I know in Virginia, if you live in Maryland, they will not even sell you a firearm at a FFL. My wife and I got that information from a gun store in Virginia. In addition, in Pennsylvania, I know someone who went to Cabalas and was told the same thing.

Getting back to Beckel and BOR – in gun shows across the nation, are those that sell guns licensed FFLs? Are all FFLs across the nation required to do background checks on individuals that buy guns? Is there a gun show loophole? I have also seen that those that sell guns on the internet require that the firearm be shipped to a licensed FFL? So, is there an Internet loophole?

And if the answer to my loop hole questions is no, than why do they keep stating this on television? Even Hannity does not dispute these statements. Have these people ever been to a gun show? Don't people e-mail/call these news programs and tell them that they are wrong?

My last question and just putting it out there for feedback. I have been thinking of writing to my Maryland Congress critters and inviting them to come to a gun show with me. What do Freepers think of that idea?


TOPICS: Chit/Chat; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: banglist; firearms; guncontrol; gunshows; loophole; oreilly; secondamendment

1 posted on 04/19/2013 6:37:34 AM PDT by 7thson
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To: 7thson
I know here in West Virginia, you can go to any of the larger flea-markets which typically occur one weekend a month during the Spring and Summer months, and there are people with tables selling guns, everything from an old hillbilly with 4 or 5 rusty guns to huge displays that would rival some gun stores. None of them require any paperwork (at least I've never found one that did). Then there are the actually "gun show's" which tend to be much larger and held indoors. The majority of these seem to require paperwork and background checks.

Honestly, I have no idea where they draw the line of what is a gun show, what isn't a gun show, what sales require paperwork, which don't etc.

2 posted on 04/19/2013 6:46:00 AM PDT by apillar
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To: 7thson

Any FFL has to follow the law about background checks wherever he sells a gun.

And federal law prohibits buying a gun out of state.


3 posted on 04/19/2013 6:46:16 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: 7thson

You can’t purchase from a licensed dealer and leave with the gun if you’re from out state, and a DC resident would be considered out state. You could arrange to have the weapon shipped to a licensed dealer in your state and pick it up from him, but you would undergo a background check when you did. You could purchase a gun from a regular citizen wandering around the gun show(not a dealer). There are individuals that go to gunshows to sell their personal guns.


4 posted on 04/19/2013 6:47:38 AM PDT by Stevenc131
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To: 7thson

1. 90%+ of gunshow sales are by an FFL.

2. The ones that are private sales are “private sales” and the sale has nothing to do with being at a gunshow. It could be at a home or parking lot anywhere. The same as if I sell my brother a gun.

3. Most private firearms that you see at gunshows are long-guns. Trying to even find seven private pistols to purchase at a gunshow would be near impossible.

4. Laws concerning state line violations still apply to private sales.

That said, ATF agents love to hang out at gunshows. If someone was walking around buying that many private sale firearms, the ATF would be taking pictures and questioning them.

5. So how would the ATF enforce a background requirement on private sales, if they can’t enforce the stateline-transfer laws now on the books? Without 100% registration there is no way to do this. e.g. you and I walk to your car and exchange money for gun, ATF shows up and charges us. How do they prove that I didn’t arrive with the gun? They must prove that it was your gun. How can they do that without registration? They can’t.

6. It is all about registration and confiscation. The inability to enforce the new requirements is the next step to seeking total registration.


5 posted on 04/19/2013 6:48:15 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: 7thson
My last question and just putting it out there for feedback. I have been thinking of writing to my Maryland Congress critters and inviting them to come to a gun show with me. What do Freepers think of that idea?

If they are Democrats, it would be a waste of time. It might also serve their goals in that they could say "I very recently witnessed purchases without background checks...blah blah blah...

The point is that Beckel's information is wrong and a lie, all the Democrats lie. There is no gun show in this country where you can go buy one, four, or seven weapons from a licensed FFL dealer at the show without having to fill out a Form 4473 and undergo a NICS check, unless you are in a state for a CCW negates the NICS check requirement like my state, Georgia. They lie because it is still legal in most locals for a person to sell a weapon to another person (private sale) at a gunshow - time, place and location does not matter. It is a great big fatassed lie they tell every time they can.

6 posted on 04/19/2013 6:49:05 AM PDT by Gaffer
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To: 7thson
In Arizona, if you buy a gun from a licensed FFL at a gun show, you must be an Arizona resident and undergo a background check. Unless you have a CCW license because they have already undergone an even more stringent background check.
You can buy guns from non FFL holders, who are selling personally owned firearms without a background check.
I think this is pretty much the standard in the Free States with maybe the exception of the CCW exemption.
Hope that helps.
7 posted on 04/19/2013 6:49:30 AM PDT by Tupelo (Old, Bald, Ugly, Fat and Broke in Arizona)
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To: 7thson

Yes, you have to do all the paperwork and wait a little while for your purchase from a FFL holder...if you purchase it inside the show. You can hang out in the parking lot and buy whatever you want, from whoever you want, with no paperwork.


8 posted on 04/19/2013 6:49:41 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: 7thson
"My question – in Virginia, can you purchase a firearm, much less seven, at any gun show from any licensed dealer without undergoing a background check or filling out paperwork? I know that in Maryland you have to fill out the same paperwork as you do in the store. I have not been to a gun show in Virginia so I do not know. However, I would surmise that if those selling the firearms are FFLs, then you have to fill out paperwork. Am I correct in that statement?"

Yes, you are correct. The form 4473 is required to buy from a dealer at a gun show, just like at a gun shop. The so-called gun show loophole is a myth. Private individuals at gun shows can sell weapons to other individuals, just like they could in the parking lot or a private home. These individuals often walk the aisles with a sign on their backpack or in the barrel of a long gun. The loop show language is a deliberate misstatement, as is the statement that anyone can buy a gun over the internet without a background check.

9 posted on 04/19/2013 6:49:48 AM PDT by Truth29
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To: Stevenc131

If we learned anything from the Boston Bombing:

1) Every house should have at least one gun in it to protect yourselves from terrorists and or nuts on the loose.

Imagine yourself in Watertown knowing a kook is on the loose and you need to lock yourself in your house and you had NO protection?


10 posted on 04/19/2013 6:50:09 AM PDT by 1Old Pro
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To: 7thson
can you purchase a firearm, much less seven, at any gun show from any licensed dealer without undergoing a background check or filling out paperwork?

Not legally.
An FFL is an FFL no matter where they conduct business.

Obama and the Left lie through their teeth about a "gun show loophole" which merely refers to some gun shows allowing a person (non-FFL) to sell their private possession at the show.
Some gun shows in some states do not allow private sales at the show.

11 posted on 04/19/2013 6:51:01 AM PDT by grobdriver
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To: apillar
...to huge displays that would rival some gun stores. None of them require any paperwork (at least I've never found one that did).

They are likely violating the law. If they are buying and selling for the purpose of making a profit (running a business) they require an FFL.

Many people at gunshows have run afowl of the ATF by claiming to just be "collectors", but setting up a table draws the ATFs attention, and they take note. If that "collector" is buying and selling too regularly, he is going to get cuffed.

12 posted on 04/19/2013 6:52:22 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: SoothingDave
And federal law prohibits buying a gun out of state.

Do you know if that only applies to licensed dealers or any transaction? Because living on the West Virginia side, within a mile of WV/OH border I have purchased many guns from private ads and flea markets in Ohio, and on the reverse side I'm sure I've sold many guns to people from Ohio as well. I never realized that could be illegal?

13 posted on 04/19/2013 6:53:18 AM PDT by apillar
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To: apillar

If someone has a huge display of guns for sale and shows them at a flea market regularly, then he is in the business of selling guns and should have an FFL.

If you are just selling a gun or two of your own on occasion, then there is no federal law against that.


14 posted on 04/19/2013 6:54:58 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: apillar

I meant through a licensed dealer. I don’t know about the legality of what you describe.


15 posted on 04/19/2013 6:56:48 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave

Not true. You can buy rifles and shotguns in any adjoining state as long as you follow the regulations of the state in which the buyer resides.

You can only sell pistols across state lines if it is an FFL to FFL transfer. The recepient FFL boes the backgrround (NCIS) check and any other related paperwork.

If you are a Maryland resident, you can buy non-regulated long guns face-to-face in Virginia.

Regulated firearms must be transferred to a Maryland FFL who will charge you a transfer fee, do the background check, fill out the necessary Federal and State forms and submit them to the MSP, charge you additionally for those and secure the firearm for the mandatory 5 day waiting period.


16 posted on 04/19/2013 6:58:45 AM PDT by catman67
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To: catman67
You can only sell pistols across state lines if it is an FFL to FFL transfer.

Correct. I should have said "handguns," not "guns."

17 posted on 04/19/2013 7:04:49 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: Tupelo

This is the exact same way that it is in Texas. Gun Show loop hole is bunk!


18 posted on 04/19/2013 7:06:21 AM PDT by Patriot365
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To: 7thson; WXRGina; SMARTY; RC one; Procyon; Maceman; 3Fingas; ladyjane; RightLady; South40; ...

Bill “I never met a Tyrant I didn’t like” O’Reilly is a card-carrying Obamanation Journalist.

Billy OR has used every excuse that he can spin to enable Tyrant B. Hussein Obama to continue to bypass Congress and destroy the US Constitution.

Our sorry Liberal Agenda Media, including Billy OR, has proven to be a willing ally to Commie Obama by publishing gun ownership information in their sorry news outlets.

“Confidential” Gun Show background Check lists are as confidential as the weakest link in the confidentiality chain, be it the sorry ‘Freedom of Information Act,’ or a sorry Media outlet Editor.

The purpose of a confidentially armed America Citizenry is THE BEST DETERRENT to power grabs by Tyrants such as the current wannabe Tyrant B. Hussein Obama.

Gun background check lists collected will be used to confiscate our anti-Tyrant guns whenever the present or future Tyrant chooses. Of course that would happen ONLY when it is in “the National Interest.”

_________

We need to stay focused!

DO NOT GET DISTRACTED!

Commie Obama has just begun to fight us!

With Communist-Style Communal Obama’care,’ B. Hussein already has one-sixth of the US Economy under his Communist heel.

Control of the US House in the 2014 National Election will clear the way for Commie Obama to take over the other five-sixth of the US Economy.

Most of the news from the Obamanation Administration centers around topics that are designed to be just another Obamanation Smokescreen to divert the attention away from Obama managing each new Constitutional Crisis into a Regulation that violates the Constitution.

“Never let a Crisis go to waste,” is the rule that guides Commie Obama.

Examples of these Obamanation distractions are most of the social issues that get attention by the Liberal Agenda Media.

Our sorry Congressional RINOs have been to stupid to learn this smoke and mirrors distraction game, and run from bargain to bargain or deal to deal, with nary a thought to use REGULAR ORDER, as designed by our Founding Fathers to protect us from Tyrants such as B. Hussein Obama.

If “bargains” and “deals” do not work then Arrogant, Incompetent, Communist Tyrant B. Hussein Obama will try to bypass the REGULAR ORDER of Congress by using Executive Orders, selective enforcement of REGULATIONS, and other Jack-Booted actions and verbal dictates that are consistent with the Communist Cell training that B. Hussein received in his quest to “FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.”

As any card-carrying Obamanation Journalist will tell you:

” - - - We must support Obama “ - - - TO FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - - - ” into a totally Regulated Communist Obamanation of Debt and Doom.

After all, how else can “- - - everyone get a fair shot?” - - - “

BTW, RECEIVING a “fair shot” would have been a lot easier if Commie Obama had succeeded in his personal recent attempted “bipartisan” destruction of the 2nd Amendment to disarm us - - - - .


19 posted on 04/19/2013 7:13:45 AM PDT by Graewoulf (Traitor John Roberts' Commune-Style Obama'care' violates U.S. Constitution AND Anti-Trust Law.)
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To: Patriot365

Patriot365~:”.. Gun Show loop hole is bunk!”

Most information from Beckel is bunk
but once said , it will be repeated by libturd media, and repeated, and repeated , etc.
The media will pick up the refrain without specifying the source, and treat it like fact !
This process is called propaganda !


20 posted on 04/19/2013 7:17:59 AM PDT by Tilted Irish Kilt ("Political correctness is tyranny with manners." - Charlton Heston)
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To: 7thson
My question – in Virginia, can you purchase a firearm, much less seven, at any gun show from any licensed dealer without undergoing a background check or filling out paperwork?

No. The 'gun show loophole' is a myth. You and another private party can buy from each other without a background check, but not from a dealer. Unlike what is claimed, you don't see too many private sellers at gun shows and most often it is an individual selling to a dealer, not individuals selling to each other. Most private sellers I've seen are also selling collectible firearms.

21 posted on 04/19/2013 7:33:26 AM PDT by mnehring
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To: 7thson
in Virginia, can you purchase a firearm, much less seven, at any gun show from any licensed dealer without undergoing a background check or filling out paperwork?

At any location, in any state, the licensed dealer must perform a background check and have the buyer complete form 4473 and the seller, (the person who verified the identity of the buyer) must also sign the form. This is federal law; it applies in all states.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/atf-f-4473.html

Only a private individual, some not licensed to sell firearms and not in the business of selling firearms, can legally sell a firearm without completing the background check and form 4473.

Gun shows provide no loopholes. It does give a common place for individuals, not dealers, to come together to buy and sell. Dealers still must obey the same rules that apply to their stores, internet sales or any other firearm transactions.

22 posted on 04/19/2013 7:44:31 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: SampleMan

>>Trying to even find seven private pistols to purchase at a gunshow would be near impossible.

Most gunshows around here (NE FL) have a few tables set up by people who are private sellers. They have anywhere from 2 to as many as 10 handguns (usually six or so). Their prices are ridiculous and they tell everyone who stops to look that “you can get these without paper”. These people represent the real “gun show loophole” becuase they paid for that table and that makes them a business, IMO. But, the ATF people at the show just walk right past them.

Now, the gummint wants to use that easy-to-close loophole to ban the private sale of all firearms. But, even with these unlicensed table vendors, almost all guns sold at our gunshows are through FFLs and have a background check because the licensed dealers have better stuff at much lower prices.


23 posted on 04/19/2013 7:48:21 AM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: Bryanw92

And the ATF could already crack down on those folks if they chose to.

In fact, they might be ATF agents if they are being so brazen about it.

I’ve certainly witnessed a few people cuffed at gunshows over the last 10 years for doing precisely that. I am a C&R FFL, and occasionally some C&R will think they have a license to conduct business, as long as they deal in C&R firearms. They don’t and they get cuffed.


24 posted on 04/19/2013 7:55:46 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: 7thson

In PA you can buy a long gun w/o FFL but NOT a handgun.Common to see people(not a dealer) at gun shows with a sign “For Sale” stuck in the barrel while walking around.


25 posted on 04/19/2013 8:13:36 AM PDT by Renegade
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To: 7thson

It would be very interesting to run Obama’s information through the background check system. I wonder what the computer would say.


26 posted on 04/19/2013 8:22:57 AM PDT by Revolutionary ("Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition!")
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To: 7thson
Anyway, Beckel makes a statement that people living in DC go to a Virginia, buy seven guns at a gun show, and then return to DC to sell them on the street.

The immediate question should have been asked: "Why wasn't the guy busted as a Straw Man?" I believe that if you buy more than three handguns from one FFL, he has to notify the BATF. Long arms, I don't know.

If the Feds were REALLY concerned about Straw purchasers, other than as a talking point, all they'd have to do is bust one or two guys, fine 'em the $250,000 and impose the 10-year prison term FOR EACH FIREARM, widely publicize that fact and watch that problem disappear overnight.

27 posted on 04/19/2013 9:56:35 AM PDT by Oatka (This is America. Assimilate or evaporate.)
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To: 7thson

What Beckel described is a straw purchase and is already illega.


28 posted on 04/19/2013 10:26:24 AM PDT by School of Rational Thought
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To: School of Rational Thought
I thank you and everyone else for all the great answers. Most of them were what I had already heard and presumed to be true.

Now - I keep hearing the same lies over and over on the radio and television. While I have no proof, I just know that many people are emailing/phoning these news stations and telling them that what is being said are lies. Yet, the same lie keeps getting repeated over and over. And as I said in my first post, even people like Hannity keep repeating this lie and not refute it. Is this the overall agenda from all news/cable networks?

29 posted on 04/19/2013 11:00:49 AM PDT by 7thson (I've got a seat at the big conference table! I'm gonna paint my logo on it!)
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To: Graewoulf

Your preachin’ to the choir.


30 posted on 04/19/2013 12:49:40 PM PDT by exnavy (Fish or cut bait ...Got ammo, Godspeed!)
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