A former special-operations doctor explains why he would rather be shot with an AK-47 than an M4

Business Insider ^ | December 21, 2015 | Dan Pronk

[Billthedrill]

I was told by my doctor that having bullets pass through my body was injurious to my health and that I should give it up.

I'm not a trained physician but I think you should probably listen to him...

[bjorn14]

That maybe true in a professional army fight but not with jihadis. Their comrades are getting 72 virgins so why bother trying to save them.

[archy]

I'm not a trained physician but I think you should probably listen to him...

What? WHAT? [I also have a bad case of tank gunner's ears.]

Train? Oh, I'd better get off the track, then.

[archy]

I then went out and built a couple AK-74s.*

Milady, trained by the USAF Security Forces for base defence, got pretty good with the M16A2 for a mechanic, but she really doesn't care for either it or the M4.

But after she got out, she discovered the 5,45mm version of the Romanian SAR-3 AK74. Being a notorious motorcyclist and under-the-truck-seat user, finds the folding Romy/Polish/East German *crutch* sidefolding wire buttstock to be just the ticket. Even with the fairly narrow buttplate of the folder, the minimal recoil of the 5,45 means *no problem* for her. And what she saves on AR15 accessories, she spends on East German and Polish 5,45 magazines.

I remain fond of the original 7,62x39mm M43 chambering, and have both a Romy G and a Polish underfolder AKS. But it's the RPK versions that really get the job done, in either caliber.

[archy]

I want a Tavor. One of the best social work tools ever.

I've got around 20,000 rounds through a variety of Tavor configurations in the last two years, and I concur. My pick would be the 18-inch barreled S-TAR now being used by the IDF as a designated marksman's rifle. Which is what the politically correct call a sniper.

[Lurker]

The Trijicon had a lot to do with that in my view.

[NorthMountain]

At just about any gun store, you can buy:

1) 5.56mm NATO XM193 This is a 55gr FMJ "ball" bullet with a lead core.

2) 5.56mm NATO XM855 This is a 62gr FMJ "ball" bullet with a two piece core. It has a small slug of mild steel in front of a lead core, all within the copper jacket.

[archy]

the Tavor was born out of the necessity of:

having a population that is 60% more likely to be left-handed than the rest of the world

Being surrounded by savages

And having little narrow curvy streets

And, having around 5,000 main battle tanks crewed by reservists, has about 20,000 tankists who can be quite hards on equipment; of the 20,000 short-barreled M16 carbines issed to them to replace their beloved [but pistol-caliber Uzis] fewer than 8,000 of them remained serviceable in about 18 months time- some being bent double or broken in half. Replacement with the heavier G'latz version of the Kalishnikov-based Galil rifle wasn't a good idea either- too heavy. But now, with the shorty bullpup Tavor, it looks like something workable has finally been issued. Ask me again in about 14 months from now. Or see what I had to say about Tavor back in 2003

Tankist's favourite rifle:

[Jewbacca]

“. Ask me again in about 14 months from now. Or see what I had to say about Tavor ..”

Nah, I’ll just ask my daughter who is a combat medic in the IDF and issued a Tavor several years ago.

She’s very pleased with it and a huge fan of the Mepro optics.

[Roman_War_Criminal]

Very wise my friend!
Mil-surp is now banned from import, so you got in when you could, and wisely so! 7N6 doesn’t have tungsten though—it’s mild steel that will still penetrate 1/4 inch steel. 7N22 is the tungsten core variant. If you have that, I’ll be interested to know how you got it since I’ve never seen it before in the states. 7N10 was imported very sparingly.

I’ve shot AR’s, and 47’s, and there is nothing like a 74.

My brother was a Marine (3rd Division) in Iraq/Afghanistan for several tours. The Romanians they worked with used 74’s and he said that gun turned “insurgents” into jello.

Brother-in-law worked contracting in Afghanistan and he got hold of an AK-105. He said the round would penetrate windshield glass way better than any M16/M4 he used.

[Jewbacca]

I got it from a Czech friend. 100 green boxes of 1080 rounds, yes, Tungsten.

It shipped into the USA, with full disclosure of what it was, with zero problems. Of course, this was before the ban.

I’ve shot 1 tuna can up, so I’m down to 106,800 rounds. Certainly enough.

The price has gone up a large amount. I think I paid $.03/round. I probably should sell while Obama is president.

[Roman_War_Criminal]

Ah! Understood!
You’ve got enough for a few good weekends of shooting I’d say.

If you ever wish to sell PM me. I’ll take some :)

[Big Red Badger]

We are from the Government,,,

[archy]

". Ask me again in about 14 months from now. Or see what I had to say about Tavor .."

Nah, I'll just ask my daughter who is a combat medic in the IDF and issued a Tavor several years ago.

Chen. Tankisti Chen

She's very pleased with it and a huge fan of the Mepro optics.

They break around tank crews, not the fault of the optic, tankers break hammers with great regularity. I had an ACOG on my S-TAR and it did everything I asked of it. A lot of the IDF tankists I saw with Tavors [some tank crew reservists still have the shorty MAR Galils] have the *broomstick* front grip on them.

[gundog]

War is war, and all is fair when trying to win.

The Geneva Conventions prohibitions against exposed lead on bullets were signed about the time that bullet velocities were exceeding the magical 2400 fps threshold where bullet do crazy things when destabilized. Smokeless powders and spitzer bullets obviated the need for soft points.

[Paal Gulli]

That prohibition was obsolete within 15 years of its enactment. It was written in 1899, not long after the invention of smokeless gunpowder but before the terminal effects of spitzer-style bullets (which were developed in response to the higher velocities smokeless powder was capable of driving bullets to) at near-3000 fps velocities were well-known. The truth is, this is hardly unique to the 5.56 NATO cartridge. Any ‘streamlined’ bullet driven fast enough will tend to tumble and produce explosive terminal effects, regardless whether full metal jacket or full-on hollowpoint.

[Paal Gulli]

If I may amplify on what you have written, Azeem, I’m sure Doc Pronk is quite a fine practitioner of the medicinal arts, but his grounding in physical science is somewhat lacking. Just because you can quote Newton’s laws of motion does not make you Richard Feynman. Especially when you misapply them.

I congratulate the good doctor for “discovering” the same schtick that Eugene Stoner used as his sales pitch going on 57 years ago. Little bullets going really fast make gruesome wounds. But his understanding of why it’s happening isn’t quite up to scratch.

First, he simplistically reduces all the myriad aspects of energy down to “kinetic” energy, as in “...the [kinetic] energy that [the bullet] delivers into the target....” Does he (errantly) think KE is the only game in town? Just where does that leave momentum? As any bow hunter will tell you (a class of hunters who work with much more meager sums of energy than gun hunters), penetration favors momentum. Fired from the same bow, the heavier arrow always produces better penetration, despite its lower velocity (and hence lower KE). This also is why dangerous game hunters use enormous thumb-sized monolithic bullets driven to modest velocities rather than bullets smaller than your pinky finger flung at warp factor four.

Second, unlike momentum, there is no law of conservation of kinetic energy, nor any principle of physics that stipulates that all of a bullet’s KE must be transferred to the target, even if the target arrests the bullet and it does not exit. Furthermore, greater KE does not guarantee improved terminal effects.

And third, he assumes that kinetic energy is an apt metric for determining wounding potential. A 77-gr .224 SMK @4055 fps has a virtually identical KE to a 220-gr .308 SMK @2400, yet the wound patterns the two bullets would produce would be so dissimilar as to defy comparison.

For that matter, a 570-gr .500 NE has nearly half again more KE (at the muzzle) than either of those two examples, but produces very limited if any hydrostatic shock. Which is significant, because the trauma he’s gushing over is primarily a demonstration of hydrostatic shock, which is a factor separate and apart from the matter of KE.

Doc Pronk’s observations are what they are, but his analysis of why they’re that way aren’t what he represents them to be.

[Paal Gulli]

That’s one of the lamest analogies ever fabricated (but that doesn’t prevent it being perpetuated on the Internet, thank you very much).

A wounded soldier who still has use of his trigger finger potentially is still in the fight. So long as he can pull a trigger, he still can kill you (unless you’re Sgt. Alvin York, and you wounded him by shooting off his trigger finger).

You also must think soldiers are too stupid to figure out how many hits it takes from any particular cartridge to produce a lethal wounding. Trust me on this, they don’t want the guy trying to kill them simply wounded, they want him dead Dead DEAD. And they without exception will adjust their tactics accordingly. For instance, when news circulated as to how ineffective the SS109 cartridge was, soldiers universally compensated by shooting every target 4-6 times instead of the customary controlled pair. Or sometimes they’d just keep shooting until the target noticeably went limp. The grunts have a saying, ounces equals pounds and pounds equal pain, but they pretty much all would opt for carrying two or three extra magazines of 5.56 rather than risk a trip home in a body bag because the ammo WAS NOT mission effective and could only “wound.”

[Lumper20]

I have said what the Dr said since 4/26/69 when I was shot twice. Had two 5.56’s gone through the same places in the same leg-I would not have a leg if alive.

[MHGinTN]

Just choose the 74 ...