Why is the The Mesopotamian Civilization considered the oldest civilization?

Probably the best place to start is the Bible which places the beginning of civilization around the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in Iraq which I think is considered where Mesopotamia was.

But then the Irish discovered whisky.

Civilization appears when, and as, a population grows beyond the range of a tribe and for primarily economic advantages, that society rejects tribalism as the standard of human social organization, with a system based on abstract concepts of social organization; this presupposes a broad ability to share abstract ideas (literacy) over a broader extent of territory than a tribe would inhabit, and a generally understood concept of property, as found in a settled way of life such as agriculture entails. The relations among individuals would be characterized by voluntary trade as opposed to theft and war.

In short, common culture, literacy, property; generally rising from religion, trade, and law. Each, respectively, tends to enhance the other, e.g., trade is good for literacy and literacy is good for trade. Similarly, religion, trade and law are all mutually reinforcing.

There seems to be a critical number for human organization, a theory advanced by, among others, Antony Jay in Corporation Man. A good working number for a committee, a mammoth hunt, a board of directiors, a corporation, a municipality, etc. It's this I'm referring to when I say "grows beyond the range of a tribe." Beyond a certain level of complexity, you need abstract thinking. It also helps to have a vehicle -- horse, wheel, boat. And finally you need to be successful in colonizing (spreading your common culture).

That's the best I can do before lunch!

I see it as the definite beginning of Western Civilization. I don’t know the early dates for China, but they ‘were a far away land’ and unknown to the Mesopotamians, as far as we current know. And as Cuban Leaf said, we trace, though the Bible our beginnings there.

Because we have their writings and can read them—History is all about writing.

I was in a museum exhibit in Taipei some years ago. The placard stated that the Chinese writing system could be dated to approximately 11,000 years BC.

They had artifacts purported to be of that age with archaic inscriptions.

Our picture of the civilization timeline is very incomplete.

As far as we know currently, Gobekli Tepe was not a part of any civilization. Mesopotamia had a network of cities bound (loosely by our standards) by culture and trade.

That said, I suspect those creatures depicted on the GT pillars were totem animals, representing not prey but tribes of humans. This would suggest GT was a meeting place, a primitive “summit.”

We still do totems, and not just for sports; it may be pre-installed in us.

Check your taskbar or dock, count the animal icons :)

“Civilization” apparently implies urbanization, political organization and writing. If I understand correctly, Gobekli Tepe and Catalhoyuk didn’t have writing or much of a political organization. I wonder if territorial extension also matters. Sumerian civilization was composed of many independent city states spread out over the Tigris/Euphrates valley. If Gobekli Tepe is a one-off it’s less likely to be considered a civilization.

What marktwain said -- civilization means the building of cities; the difficulties continue as people argue/discuss what constitutes a city.

In the Nile Valley there's a 15,000 year old site that was a very large settlement. It was apparently attacked and burned to the ground, and the terminal ash layer was filled with thousands of arrowheads and spearheads, showing the population must have been pretty large. There's no writing AFAIK.

The Sumerian cuneiform writing system arose by 3200 BC and was adapted for Akkadian (Old Assyrian), and later for other spoken languages and diplomatic communication, not falling out of use until the 1st c AD. Alphabetic script as a concept isn't quite that long lived.

Interestingly, tantalizingly, there's a full set or alphabet of "runic" script characters found among the ice age cave paintings, almost as if the artists were signing their work. It's ridiculously unlikely that, even if truly a script, it will ever be deciphered.

Thanks BenLurkin for the ping.

One of the definitions of civilization is the process by which a society or place reaches an advanced stage of social and cultural development and organization. I’m not quite sure how the people that determined the existence of a civilization defined it. What is an advanced stage? For all intents and purposes the garden of Eden, if you follow religion, could be considered a civilization because it flourished and was self containing but had no culture as it was not needed. Yet two people flourished in it.

Is an existence of anything but the ability to survive safely required to call it a civilization? If that’s the case, the first two resemblance of people that came from the sea would be one for as long as they survived. So we’re back beyond Cro-Magnon and down on all fours. Need a better, single definition of civilization to consider the answer to the question.

wy69

One of the definitions of civilization is the process by which a society or place reaches an advanced stage of social and cultural development and organization. I’m not quite sure how the people that determined the existence of a civilization defined it. What is an advanced stage? For all intents and purposes the garden of Eden, if you follow religion, could be considered a civilization because it flourished and was self containing but had no culture as it was not needed. Yet two people flourished in it.

Is an existence of anything but the ability to survive safely required to call it a civilization? If that’s the case, the first two resemblance of people that came from the sea would be one for as long as they survived. So we’re back beyond Cro-Magnon and down on all fours. Need a better, single definition of civilization to consider the answer to the question.

wy69

In college introductory archaeology class, I dimly recall learning the definition of civilization according to Australian archaeologist V. Gordon Childe:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/urban-revolution

Childe identified 10 formal criteria that, according to his system, indicate the development of urban civilization: increased settlement size, concentration of wealth, large-scale public works, writing, representational art, knowledge of science and engineering, foreign trade, full-time specialists in nonsubsistence activities, class-stratified society, and political organization based on residence rather than kinship. He saw the underlying causes of the urban revolution as the cumulative growth of technology and the increasing availability of food surpluses as capital.

(However, I can easily imagine that this definition has undergone significant tweaking by TPTB in recent decades...)

They were the first to brew beer. You can’t have a civilization without beer.

islam forbids the consumption of any alcoholic beverage. Q.E.D.

And to be clear, if our modern planet was to be hit with a large enough cosmic event, though the planet may survive, all remnant of modern technology would be wiped out.

There are pretty compelling sets of evidence suggesting it's a 12,000 year cycle.

The last disaster was about 12,000 years ago...

You would certainly have to live a long time because they are intentionally not going to dig the whole site. They are aware of the importance of the site and know that todays tools and techniques arent sufficient and as such want to leave it for future generations more capable.

We’re lucky he was on our side.

# It’s because there weren’t simply a few potamians, there was a whole Mesopotamians

Well played! LOL

I've heard Elvis never caught Harappans. Anyway, rimshot, there may have been some kind of cultural commonality between the Harappans and the Sumerians, possibly through trade or even geographical origin. The Sumerians own origin story was that they came from the sea, and they preserved the preexisting placenames and river names rather than giving their own.

Archaeologists Unearth Ancient Dagger Linked to Enigmatic Indian Civilization [Tamil Nadu] [08/15/2021]
Albanian Neolithic Remains Evidence Oldest Known Case of Osteopetrosis [11/06/2020]
Research links Southeast Asia megadrought to drying in Africa [mid-Holocene] [08/22/2020]
Was there music during the Indus Valley Civilisation? [03/16/2020]
Ancient monkey painting suggests Bronze Age Greeks travelled widely [02/04/2020]
Graphene and Water Treatment [08/31/2019]
History of Writing & Printing: [08/24/2019]
The Price of Plunder [Hasanlu Tepe gold cup] [03/30/2019]
In a first, ancient couple found in Harappan grave [02/16/2019]
Man unknowingly buys 4,000-year-old pottery at flea market, uses it as toothbrush holder [12/07/2018]
Welcome to the Meghalayan Age - a new phase in history [07/19/2018]
Did this ancient civilization avoid war for 2000 years? [04/10/2018]
Micro To Macro Mapping -- Observing Past Landscapes Via Remote-sensing [02/18/2018]
Harappan Workshops Excavated in Northwest India [07/07/2016]
Indus Valley civilisation may pre-date Egypt's pharoahs: Ancient society is 2,500 years older [tr] [06/02/2016]
Ancient civilization: Cracking the Indus script [10/21/2015]
Tales teeth can tell: Dental enamel reveals surprising migration patterns in ancient Indus civ... [05/09/2015]
The ancient city that's crumbling away [03/23/2015]
4,000-Year-Old Copper Crown Found in India [01/04/2015]
A New Type of Inscribed Copper Plate from Indus Valley (Harappan) Civilisation [10/17/2014]
Harappan-era seal found in Rajasthan [02/05/2014]
Disease and trauma within collapsing Indus Civilisation [12/27/2013]
Is Haryana home to older, larger Harappan-era site? [06/26/2013]
Surprising Discoveries From the Indus Civilization [05/04/2013]
Is the Harappan civilisation 2000 years older? [11/14/2012]
A Turkish origin for Indo-European languages [08/24/2012]
Huge Ancient Civilization's Collapse Explained [05/29/2012]
Rethinking the Thundering Hordes [05/06/2012]
History's Most Overlooked Mysteries [04/29/2012]
Bones kill myth of happy Harappa - Study shows gender discrimination [12/04/2011]
Play was important -- even 4,000 years ago [02/21/2011]
Early Cities Spurred Evolution of Immune System? [ "Amazing" DNA results show benefits ] [11/12/2010]
Computers to translate world's 'lost' languages after program deciphers ancient text [07/21/2010]
Deciphering the Indus script: challenges and some headway [04/18/2010]
A Millennium Conundrum [Indus Valley Script] [02/23/2010]
Indus Valley's Bronze Age civilisation 'had first sophisticated financial exchange system' [11/20/2009]
Symbols akin to Indus valley culture found [09/29/2009]
Computers unlock more secrets of the mysterious Indus Valley script [08/03/2009]
Indus Script Encodes Language, Reveals New Study Of Ancient Symbols [04/26/2009]
Rethinking silk's origins [02/18/2009]
Archaeologists made new discoveries at Moenjodaro [02/05/2009]
Chandigarh was part of Harappan civilisation 5,000 years ago [11/14/2008]
From Indus Valley To Coastal Tamil Nadu [05/02/2008]
Ghost Cities Of 2100 [06/22/2007]
Dancing Girl From Mohenjo-Daro [05/10/2007]
Distributing Water (Ancient Indus Valley) [04/13/2007]
Interview [with Iravatham Mahadevan,] the Madras Indus scholar [03/31/2007]
Can the monkey god save Rama?s underwater bridge? [03/27/2007]
'Indus Valley Civilization Was More Varied And Wider' [03/06/2007]
German Indologist claims to have decoded Indus scripts [02/17/2007]
Harappan Period Cemetery Unearthed In Uttar Pradesh [01/04/2007]
'Farming in India began much earlier' [12/05/2006]
Indus cities dried up with monsoon [05/02/2006]
Significance of Mayiladuthurai find -- Links between Harappa and Neolithic Tamil Nadu [04/30/2006]
Ruins of Harrappan city found in Haryana [02/21/2006]
'Detectives' unearth secrets of the past (Dilmun seals inscribed with Indus Valley inscription) [06/24/2005]
A Civilisation Parallel To Harappa? Experts Wonder [12/13/2004]
Ahmad Hassan Dani (Indus Valley script) [08/12/2004]
Excavations Reveal 7,000 Year-Old Harappan Sites [01/20/2004]
Decoding DISCOVERY from the much-elusive Indus Valley script! [06/28/2002]
New Discoveries In Syria Confirm Theory On Spread Of Early Civilization [06/03/2002]
Drowned Indian city could be world's oldest [01/18/2002]
Lost Civilisation From 7,500 BC Discovered Off Indian Coast [01/16/2002]

And there you have it.

So it took 12,000 years of human settlements before we developed writing? Even though there was rudimentary writing in caves.

There must be some evidence of the starts & stops of writing among the earliest civilizations [or should I say settlements]. Perhaps it is writing itself that delineates the difference between a settlement and a civilization.

The past is revealed by the future.