Posted on 08/14/2005 1:25:44 PM PDT by adam_az
Edited on 08/14/2005 1:28:27 PM PDT by Sidebar Moderator. [history]
Live thread for posting breaking news about the Gaza Explulsion which is set to begin within the hour...
"Let me rephrase this: who do Israeli's consider their greatest hero?"
Moses?
King David?
Solomon?
Rebbe Schneerson?
Meir Kahane?
Depends on who you ask, I guess. I don't know of any polls.
Every time the palis are supposed to reign in terrorism and everytime whoever is in charge says in English (like Bill Clinton) "Ah'm tryin' ree-al hard'" but somehow the terrorism never stops, and Israel has to keep signing more "treaties". They should really think hard about whether they can survive much longer with "friends" like us. We seem to be using them for one big experiment in geopolitical engineering, just like we are in Iraq, and if we fail there's going to be a very loud bang.
"So I'm trying to remember who was the Israeli leader who wouldn't put up with this, besides Gold Meir."
Menachim Begin?
I posted on a thread last night...that I am praying that "the old soldier" Sharon, has something up his sleeve, because Fox showed footage of him campaigning in Gaza 3-4 years ago, PROMISING the people there, that their settlements would stay....
NOW, suppose that President Bush came out tomorrow and told the American people that he was bringing all the troops home from Afghanistan and Iraq immediately. SOME people would be ecstatic, BUT most of the families of our wounded and dead military would think RIGHT AT THAT MOMENT-it has all been for NOTHING....because he would be acknowledging that the Taliban would be back in power in Afghanistan, and al-Queda would be in power in Iraq..
THAT I think is how these Israelis feel that are being told NOW, that they have to leave GAZA.
But, what if Pres. Bush and Sharon agreed to do this, so that all of the groups, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, and al-queda set up shop in GAZA.....JUST CALL AN AIRSTIKE and BOOM! gone....and you haven't blown up Israelis...
THAT would be the ONLY scenario that would make sense to me right now.
What do you think?
this is wrong!
They shouldnt give them an inch of that land.
That is not just! Arabs will never be satisfied of what they got today. They want more and more and more.
Long Live Israel!
I would take back any critisism I've had of this plan if it were to really happen! It's just not rational, otherwise. Giving in to terrorists is so wrong.
I couldn't agree with you more...this is just so WRONG, in so many ways..
I am glad this live thread is here though...because I am learning things from reading all of the posts...
I want to thank all that post on this thread..for people like I am, basically ignorant of most of this, but CARE DEEPLY about this...it helps to read ya'lls posts!
I don't know what the farmers are going to do now. They have been screwed by the government. SO, most of 'em have already planted next year's crop because they figure that, in the end, they are going to STAY! Ya gotta love these folks, you really do! :-)
If there is such a place as 'Palestinian Lands' historically, it includes all of Jordan, part of Syria, all of Lebanon and parts of both Egypt and Iraq.
For 500 years prior to the defeat of the Ottoman Empire, 'Palestine' (then called 'Southern Syria) was a minor province of no particular importance. Jerusalem was of such little importance that it wasn't even a territorial capital.
The name, 'Palestine' isn't even an Arab word. 'Palestine' is from the Greek "Palaistina" which is derived from the Hebrew "Pleshet" which means, "Land of the Philistines" and historically, referred to a a small coastal strip north east of Egypt, also called "Philistia."
In the 2nd century BC, the Romans renamed it "Syria Palaestina".
The modern name, "Palestine" was revived when the British were given their mandate following World War I. Until 1967, the Arabs used the term 'Palestinian' to describe the JEWS.
There is no such thing as an Arab 'Palestinian people'. There never was.
The 'Palestinian people' were created in a single day in 1967 by Yasser Arafat. He created them out of the expatriate Jordanians and Egyptians left behind after Egypt and Jordan were defeated by Israel.
The White House knows all this. It isn't a secret. Neither is it revised history. The maps existed long before the 'Palestinian people' did. What has Abbas done to inspire such confidence that the White House would modify its position?
Bush not only promised to keep up the pressure to force Israel to accept an enemy state within its territorial boundaries. He also agreed to a fifty million dollar grant for the Palestinian Authority.
So far, Congress has given $200 million in US tax dollars to the PA. Arafat stole ALL of it, not to mention hundreds of millions more from other donor countries.
Now that he has the president's ear, Abbas is reportedly planning to launch a fresh uprising against Israel. Geo-Strategy direct reports that Abbas hopes Israel will respond with "terrorist force and organized fire."
According to the plan, the Israeli response would lead to massive Western pressure on Israel that would isolate the country and embarrass the United States. As a result, the Israeli people and American Jews would protest Sharon's policies.
Gertz quotes Abbas advisor Abu Sharif who contends that an uprising represents, for the Palestinian side, a no-lose proposition. It would bolster the Palestinian stand, reverse the pro-Israeli policies of the United States and strengthen Abbas. As Palestinian violence rages back home, Abbas could be tough with the US.
Abbas was expected to delay any uprising until at least after the Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, sources said. At the same time, he would not stop the escalation of Fatah and Hamas attacks on Israeli communities and military outposts in West Bank and Gaza Strip.
If this were any country except Israel, the entire farce would never have gotten off the ground. Were Israel not a Jewish state, the world would instantly reject the PA claims as historically and transparently invalid. Anybody with access to an atlas knows there has never been an Arab Palestine.
A hundred years ago, 'Palestine' was Southern Syria. For the next forty years, 'Palestinians' were Jews -- Arab residents vehemently rejected the label of 'Palestinian' and insisted they were citizens of Southern Syria.
Thirty-eight years ago, following the defeat of Jordan and Egypt, an Egyptian-born Arab named Yasser Arafat invented the 'Palestinian' people.
The modern 'Palestinian people' have no unique language, no unique culture, no unique history and cannot be found identified anywhere in any historical records that date earlier than the mid 1960's.
But somehow, we find one Mahmoud Abbas, 'president' of the 'Palestinian people', meeting at the White House with President George Bush to discuss creating a 'Palestinian State' on what is both historical and modern Israel.
And nobody seems to have a problem with it -- except the Jews of Israel.
"Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it." (Zechariah 12:2-3)
"How long can Israel hold onto the West Bank and Gaza before the Palestinians wise up and, rather than demanding their own state, start demanding "One Man, One Vote?"
It is widely considered that PM Sharon's Disengagement Plan and agreement to a Palestinian State, a two state solution, is a response to the growing worldwide push for a 'One State' solution which would spell the end for a Jewish State.
When the NY Review of Books article by Tony Judt appeared, the idea had hit the left-leaning mainstream of America. All this talk of Israeli apartheid, Zionism as racism, has put Israel in a precarious position, one that the much maligned Rabbi Kahane foresaw decades ago. How separation is accomplished is another matter. It is hard to believe given the utter belligerence of Palestinians, and their manipulation by their Arab/Muslim brethren, that it will happen in 'peace.'
.................
Tony Judt
Israel: The Alternative
But I suspect that we are already too late for that. There are too many settlements, too many Jewish settlers, and too many Palestinians, and they all live together, albeit separated by barbed wire and pass laws. Whatever the "road map" says, the real map is the one on the ground, and that, as Israelis say, reflects facts. It may be that over a quarter of a million heavily armed and subsidized Jewish settlers would leave Arab Palestine voluntarily; but no one I know believes it will happen. Many of those settlers will die—and kill— rather than move. The last Israeli politician to shoot Jews in pursuit of state policy was David Ben-Gurion, who forcibly disarmed Begin's illegal Irgun militia in 1948 and integrated it into the new Israel Defense Forces. Ariel Sharon is not Ben-Gurion.[3]
The time has come to think the unthinkable. The two-state solution— the core of the Oslo process and the present "road map"—is probably already doomed. With every passing year we are postponing an inevitable, harder choice that only the far right and far left have so far acknowledged, each for its own reasons. The true alternative facing the Middle East in coming years will be between an ethnically cleansed Greater Israel and a single, integrated, binational state of Jews and Arabs, Israelis and Palestinians. That is indeed how the hard-liners in Sharon's cabinet see the choice; and that is why they anticipate the removal of the Arabs as the ineluctable condition for the survival of a Jewish state.
But what if there were no place in the world today for a "Jewish state"? What if the binational solution were not just increasingly likely, but actually a desirable outcome? It is not such a very odd thought. Most of the readers of this essay live in pluralist states which have long since become multiethnic and multicultural. "Christian Europe," pace M. Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, is a dead letter; Western civilization today is a patchwork of colors and religions and languages, of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Arabs, Indians, and many others—as any visitor to London or Paris or Geneva will know.[4]
Israel itself is a multicultural society in all but name; yet it remains distinctive among democratic states in its resort to ethnoreligious criteria with which to denominate and rank its citizens. It is an oddity among modern nations not—as its more paranoid supporters assert—because it is a Jewish state and no one wants the Jews to have a state; but because it is a Jewish state in which one community—Jews —is set above others, in an age when that sort of state has no place.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16671
Only a secular leftist, bereft of historical persepective, living safely in the US, caring nothing for the survival of the Jewish people, would consider the 'One State' solution in Israel "desireable." And yet this is a prevailing view in Europe and one of increasing popularity here.
No, that was Yitzchak Rabin on Ben Gurion's orders.
I agree with you about this thread....I keep thinking that I'm missing some huge important fact that will make all of this seem like a great idea. I'll keep reading....haven't found it yet!
At this moment I am praying for the peace of all Israel, and for the brothers Judah and Ephraim to recognize each other and become one stick in the Fathers' hand. Shalom, Wes
That's all well and good, however this is a centuries old religious war. This is blood hatred on the part of suicidal pyschopaths. Time honored military tactics don't work against a people who are one step up from cavemen.
You are absolutely correct that tactics that have succeeded in the past have no guarantee of succeeding in the future.
That is why military offense and military defense are an ever-evolving art.
However, my point is that errors of the past that have repeatedly resulted in catastrophic failures will almost certainly ensure the same catastrophic failures in the future.
If you examine my answers to this thread, they have addressed specific errors of the past that have been championed by certain posters on this thread.
These errors include the assertions that:
1. One must never retreat lest the enemy feel a thrill of victory. (Such a truism would deprive you of ever making a tactical retreat. You might as well allow the enemy commander to issue your marching orders.)
2. One must always advance as Sherman did. Napoleon failed because he decided to retreat from Moscow. (Napoleon failed because he was too stubborn to retreat soon enough and, instead, insisted in advancing into a bottomless pit.)
*****************
"I have recorded these events in the hope that the reader may profit from them, for there are two ways by which all men may reform themselves, either by learning from their own errors or from those of others; the former makes a more striking demonstration, the latter a less painful one."........... Polybius (200-118 B.C.), Universal History, Book I, Chapter 35
Moshe Dayan was a traitor to Israel?
Just damn....
-Eric
"So I'm trying to remember who was the Israeli leader who wouldn't put up with this, besides Gold Meir."He was the PM during the Yamit evacuation.Menachim Begin?
The number of Israeli PMs who wouldn't "put up with this" equals the number of US Presidents who supported Israel "settling" the West Bank and Gaza: The Ultimate Round Number.
-Eric
Another from the Ha'aretz ticker:
02:03 Elei Sinai settlers block entrance as IDF troops attempt to enter (Israel Radio)
Excellent post, well said!
"The name, 'Palestine' isn't even an Arab word. 'Palestine' is from the Greek "Palaistina" which is derived from the Hebrew "Pleshet" which means, "Land of the Philistines" and historically, referred to a a small coastal strip north east of Egypt, also called "Philistia."
................
Correct not Arab. Philistine latinized to Palestine by the Romans.
Here's a bit of trivia. Arabs can not pronounced the letter 'p' as in Palestinian. It is not a sound in their alphabet. That is why they call Naples - Na'b'lus. So the idea of a historical Arab presence in 'P'alestine is ludicrous.
The name Palestine was given by the Roman Hadrian after putting down the Bar Kochba rebellion in 135CE/AD. It was named after the Philistines, Israel's mortal enemy, to stick it to the Jewish inhabitants. Name as political weapon. Well, that is still the case today as Muslims use the name Palestine to undermine the legitimacy of Israel.
The wave of "Last Minute Refusals" is growing by the hour, with soldiers throughout the IDF stating they will not obey orders relating to the forced expulsion of Jews from Gaza and northern Samaria.
According to Rotter.net, five IDF battalion commanders have warned of mass refusal by soldiers in a document written to Defense Minister Sha'ul Mofaz and Chief of Staff Dan Halutz last week. The letter reportedly reveals a phenomenon called "last minute refusal." The five lieutenant colonels wrote that there is a possibility that up to half of all soldiers, including officers, assigned to Disengagement duties intend to disclose their objection to the expulsion of Jews from Gaza and Samaria on the day they are ordered to carry out the mission.
The planned "surprise" refusals, according to the letter, have been made explicit in private conversations. The five officers warned the chief of staff and the defense minister that senior officers are ignoring the growing phenomenon.
There has been a steep rise in refusals in recent days, and with Monday's delivery of eviction notices to residents, the trend continues to grow.
Monday morning, fifteen soldiers in the Maintenance Corps refused to board a bus that was to take them from their base southward. The soldiers refused to take part in the uprooting of the Jewish communities of Gaza. Seven of the soldiers were sentenced in speedy field trials to 21 days in jail, while the remaining eight are still being questioned by military police.
A female soldier from the Communications Corps refused to take part in operations related to the implementation of the Disengagement Plan and is now being tried for insubordination.
A soldier from the elite Givati combat brigade was declared AWOL on Saturday and sentenced to 35 days in prison; he was also charged with having entered Gush Katif without a permit.
Six soldiers of the Golani Brigade were declared AWOL by their commander. The six announced that they refused to take part in blocking the way of Jews making their way to Gush Katif, in the perimeter ring outside of the Gaza area. Other Golani soldiers have been reassigned to alternate missions in the Golan Heights, on Israel's northern border.
Three other elite combat soldiers in Gush Katif told Arutz-7 that they had left their units to help prevent the expulsion of Jews from Gush Katif, but had not yet been declared AWOL due to the fact that they have not been absent long enough to qualify.
A soldier in the air force left his unit and attempted to enter Gush Katif Tuesday. He was halted at a checkpoint and arrested. His commanders are expected to sentence him in coming days. Many soldiers in the air force have been assigned to Disengagement duties due to their high motivation to obey orders so that they don't lose their place in the elite air force courses for which they have been training.
An officer cadet in the Egoz reconnaissance unit refused to take part in sealing off northern Samaria, a support role for the actual expulsion of the Samaria Jews. He was sentenced to 28 days in jail.
Two IDF privates in the Paratrooper Brigade training course gave up their spots in the elite corps out of their desire to protest the uprooting of Jews from Gaza and northern Samaria. During a special roll-call announcement made to the trainees, during which the orders of the Chief of Staff regarding the implementation of the Disengagement Plan were read aloud, one soldier, a resident of Kfar Saba, shouted at the Company Commander his objection to the orders. Another soldier threw his weapon in frustration and said that he does not understand the army's behavior. The two soldiers are now to face a military trial and may be ejected from the elite paratroopers course.
Another growing phenomenon involves those soldiers who are taking part in Disengagement duties, but purposely sabotaging them. One Gush Katif "infiltrator" told Arutz-7 that as crossed through fields and dirt roads heading toward Gush Katif, his group was spotted by two Golani brigade soldiers. He said both of them did nothing more than wave at them. Later, at the permanently closed Kisufim Crossing, the group was "accidentally" waved inside.
Dozens of other such cases have been reported, accompanied by requests to refrain from publicizing details so as not to endanger the continued resistance of those soldiers and officers.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=87818
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