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Patient wants to live, but old 'living will' mandates death
WorldNetDaily ^ | 10/20/05 | Diana Lynne

Posted on 10/20/2005 5:52:22 PM PDT by wagglebee

He says he wants to live. But his wife, caregivers and South Carolina state officials are so focused on carrying out a decade-old, out-of-state living will that 79-year-old Jimmy Chambers can't get a word in edgewise.

That's the account of 10 of Chambers's children and their spouses who signed sworn affidavits in an attempt to block their mother from removing his life-sustaining ventilator, which would cause his death.

It's a case that's reminiscent of the Terri Schiavo controversy which captured the attention of millions around the world, in which a fault line opened up in the middle of a formerly close-knit family, splitting it into pieces over whether to end a loved one's life or allow them to live.

"Our family has meant everything to all of us for all these years. We never thought we'd be in this place," Deanna Potter, one of the children seeking to preserve her father's life, told WND.

The ordeal began August 20 in Naples, Florida, when the "active" and "vibrant" Chambers hopped on a riding lawnmower to help out with his son's yard work. Chambers apparently took his eyes off the road briefly and by the time he fixed his gaze back forward, a hefty tree limb struck him and bent him backwards over the seat of the mower. He was found sometime later lying unconscious on the ground.

Chambers suffered a broken back, a spinal chord injury and a torn aorta. Doctors didn't think he would survive the emergency room. He surprised them.

"You just can't keep him down," Potter marveled. "My father had polio when he was younger and his legs were weakened by that, so he was getting to the point where he couldn't walk for any period of time. But he was always active and looking for things to do. He has a couple of those scooters and scooted all over where he lives."

Two days after the accident, doctors performed surgery and succeeded in repairing Chambers's back, but determined he had become paraplegic. Spinal shock left him dependent on a ventilator, and a gastric feeding tube was inserted into his abdomen.

The prognosis was grim. Doctors weren't sure whether the Yuma, Arizona, resident would ever be able to come off of the ventilator and feeding tube.

That's when the family unity cracked.

Divided over life, death

Chambers's wife of 58 years, Viola, and one daughter began advocating removal of the ventilator and ending his life, according to Potter. Mrs. Chambers presented a living will her husband signed in 1990 when the couple lived in Iowa. The document indicated that should he have an "incurable or irreversible condition that will result either in death within a relatively short period of time" it was his desire that his life not be prolonged by the administration of life-sustaining procedures.

Chambers did not designate a power of attorney or anyone to serve as medical decision maker in the event of his incapacitation. He has not been declared incapacitated, however, so the family decided to put the life-or-death question to him.

On September 8, after having been off morphine and other mind-altering drugs for 10 hours, the family assembled in Chambers's room at Naples Community Hospital. Present were Viola Chambers, 10 children and Chambers's treating physician, Dr. Kenneth Bookman.

"We all believed that daddy would elect to discontinue the ventilator," Potter told WND. "I went there with the determination that if that's what he chose, I would support him and stand there and love him and not leave that room until he left us."

Again, Chambers surprised them.

"He was asked specifically if he wanted to stay on the ventilator and his answer was 'yes,'" wrote Bookman in a notarized letter documenting the event, a copy of which was supplied to WND.

"He was asked if he understood that he would likely never go home again, and would likely live in a ventilator facility, on the ventilator, for the rest of his life and his answer was, 'yes,'" Bookman's letter continued. "He was asked if he wanted to be removed from the ventilator and his answer was 'no.' He was asked if he understood that he would die if he would be removed from the ventilator and his answer was, 'yes.'"

Bookman states he felt that Chambers was off of sedation and aware enough to comprehend and make decisions regarding life support.

What reportedly happened next shocked Potter: "When my father said that he wanted to live and he wanted to be treated, my mother said to him in very emphatic tones, 'Jim, do you really want to live in this body? Don't you want to go to heaven and be with Jerry?' He's my younger brother who died. And she said it twice. And the room absolutely went nuts. Everybody was outraged that she was trying to talk him into dying. ... He just stared at her as if she lost her mind. He didn't respond at all."

When contacted by WND, Viola Chambers declined to comment.

According to Iowa law, a living will "may be revoked in any manner by which the Declarant is able to communicate the Declarant's intent to evoke."

Bookman, Potter and her siblings considered the Iowa living will revoked and transferred Chambers two weeks later to Anne Maria Rehabilitation and Nursing Center, a facility that specializes in rehabilitating ventilator patients, in North Augusta, South Carolina.

'Revoked' living will lives on

According to documents filed with the court, Chambers's new treating physician, Dr. Nicholas Sanito, found Chambers "awake, alert and interactive" during an examination on September 26.

"He shakes my hands. He was trying to speak, but I couldn't read his lips all that well," Sanito wrote.

Another assessment completed of Chambers on Sept. 28 by Angie Beverly, the activities director at the facility, found Chambers could see, hear and comprehend and that he "tried to communicate."

"He could sometimes make himself understood and ... tried to use tools, such as a white board and marker and a magnetic letter board to communicate. He wrote a letter on the white board, although it took tremendous effort. He has a strong desire to communicate," Beverly concluded, according to a synopsis of the assessment provided to WND.

Viola Chambers, however, informed Sanito and the nursing staff about the Iowa living will and a Do- Not-Resuscitate order and acted to enforce both. Potter asserts her mother requests morphine and another drug be dispensed to her father in such a way that he is infrequently sober enough to communicate and ordered the removal of all communication devices from his room, including his nurse call button.

Mrs. Chambers also denied her husband medical treatment for pneumonia and ordered he only be given "comfort care," according to Potter.

The nursing home administrator, Marcy Drewry, was unavailable for comment.

While their father's lungs slowly filled with fluid and his extremities began to swell, Potter and her siblings mobilized to save his life, which meant knocking heads with their own mother.

"I can only say that she is not well," Potter said, adding that she believes her mother suffers from the adult version of the mental health disorder, Munchausen by Proxy. "She's on a mission now. I don't think there will be any reasoning with her in this process. The power is simply going to have to be taken from her hands."

Following South Carolina law, the nursing home staff considers Viola Chambers to be the person with the authority over the patient and the person they need to answer to. The Adult Health Care Consent Act gives the spouse the highest priority to make medical decisions in the absence of a health care power of attorney.

After Potter and her siblings filed a police report accusing their mother of "elder abuse," the state agency designated by the Department of Social Services to investigate such complaints looked into the matter. Susan Garen, the regional Long Term Care Ombudsman, confirmed Viola Chambers had the authority to direct her husband's care. After consulting with the State Long Term Care Ombudsman, Jon Cook, Garen concluded no investigation would be done.

"Mr. Cook determined that it is not within the scope of the long term care ombudsman to determine if the decisions made by the medical decision maker were in the best interest of the resident or not," Garen wrote in an October 6 report.

"No agency gets involved in family disputes. If there is a family dispute then we ask that they settle that in court to determine guardianship," Cook told WND. "On cases where there's a legal representative, we really have to do what they say. Especially when there's a living will that hasn't been revoked."

When WND informed Cook that family members assert the living will was revoked, he replied: "That's up in the air. I haven't seen anything that says it's revoked. Nobody can prove it is. That's why I wanted the probate court to handle that. We just can't get involved."

The hands-off approach to the case by state agencies charged with the responsibility of advocating on behalf of the vulnerable was similarly experienced by those seeking to preserve Terri Schiavo's life.

Dispute lands in court

On October 6, Randall Chambers filed an emergency petition seeking appointment as temporary guardian of his father. Six days later, according to court documents, Viola Chambers countered with her own petition.

"As his wife of 58 years, I am far more intimately aware of my husband's wishes and desires as it pertains to his health care treatment than any of my children," stated Viola Chambers in the petition. "I therefore object to the appointment of my son, Randall Chambers, as temporary Guardian for my husband as his appointment will undermine and deprive my husband of the healthcare he wishes and desires and which he has expressed to me on many occasions and also in writing."

The court appointed an independent guardian ad litem, Paige Weeks Johnson, to investigate the case and make a recommendation to the court on behalf of Chambers. In her preliminary report, Johnson recommended the court order the ventilator and feeding tube not be removed until further order of the court, and until she has the opportunity to speak with the treating physician. Still, the authority to make other treatment decisions rests with Viola Chambers.

As their father crept closer to death in the absence of antibiotics, according to Potter, the siblings trained their sights on the treating physician at the nursing home. They faxed him a letter asserting their mother had breached her fiduciary responsibility to their father. They attached Bookman's letter along with the 10 affidavits from family members all swearing Chambers had revoked the living will and wanted to live.

"We told the doctor, 'We will sue you if anything happens to our father.' We believe that has gotten him to be a little more involved," said Potter.

Chambers was subsequently transported to the hospital where he is now receiving treatment for the pneumonia. Meanwhile, the guardianship battle continues.

"I can't believe what you have to come up with in order to preserve this life – this vibrant, strong man who wants to live," said Potter. "It's incredible."


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Extended News; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; US: South Carolina
KEYWORDS: 14thamendment; barbarism; crypthanasia; cultureofdeath; deathpenalty; deathwarrant; dehydration; emotathon; eugenics; euthanasia; genocide; jimmychambers; justice; livingwills; medicalcosts; medicalethics; moralabsolutes; murder; obsessingterribots; petersinger; righttolife; singer; soros; starvation; terrischiavo; torture
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On September 8, after having been off morphine and other mind-altering drugs for 10 hours, the family assembled in Chambers's room at Naples Community Hospital. Present were Viola Chambers, 10 children and Chambers's treating physician, Dr. Kenneth Bookman.

"We all believed that daddy would elect to discontinue the ventilator," Potter told WND. "I went there with the determination that if that's what he chose, I would support him and stand there and love him and not leave that room until he left us."

Again, Chambers surprised them.

"He was asked specifically if he wanted to stay on the ventilator and his answer was 'yes,'" wrote Bookman in a notarized letter documenting the event, a copy of which was supplied to WND.

"He was asked if he understood that he would likely never go home again, and would likely live in a ventilator facility, on the ventilator, for the rest of his life and his answer was, 'yes,'" Bookman's letter continued. "He was asked if he wanted to be removed from the ventilator and his answer was 'no.' He was asked if he understood that he would die if he would be removed from the ventilator and his answer was, 'yes.'"

Bookman states he felt that Chambers was off of sedation and aware enough to comprehend and make decisions regarding life support.

It is disgusting to me that there would even be any consideration of removing his ventilator after this.

1 posted on 10/20/2005 5:52:25 PM PDT by wagglebee
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To: little jeremiah; DirtyHarryY2K; Coleus; NYer; Salvation

Moral absolutes - Culture of Death ping.


2 posted on 10/20/2005 5:53:24 PM PDT by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: wagglebee

I don't find this to be similar to the Schiavo case. If the man can talk and is lucid and said he wants to remain alive, how is there even any discussion?


3 posted on 10/20/2005 5:57:04 PM PDT by Mr. Blonde (You know, Happy Time Harry, just being around you kinda makes me want to die.)
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To: 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; annalex; ...


4 posted on 10/20/2005 5:57:35 PM PDT by Coleus ("Woe unto him that call evil good and good evil"-- Isaiah 5:20-21)
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To: wagglebee

Gee.
I wonder if the missus has a huge insurance policy on him.


5 posted on 10/20/2005 5:59:25 PM PDT by Salamander (Cursed with Second Sight)
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To: Mr. Blonde
I agree. The idea behind a living will/advance medical directive is to convey your wishes only when death is imminent and you are unable to communicate your desire.
6 posted on 10/20/2005 5:59:38 PM PDT by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: wagglebee

I thought a living will only took affect when a person was unable to speak for himself.


7 posted on 10/20/2005 6:03:01 PM PDT by evad ( PC KILLS-)
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To: Mr. Blonde
Well, what I am getting from this is that if you execute a living will, or simply make an idle comment, some people believe your spouse has the right to kill you.

After the Schiavo case, I made it plain to my husband that I did not want to be starved and deprived of water. He was free to divorce me. All I wanted was a comfortable room, an occasional visitor, and a TV with Fox News. If I am brain dead it won't matter, and if I am like this guy, at least I would have some contact with the outside world.

8 posted on 10/20/2005 6:07:51 PM PDT by Miss Marple (Lord, please look after Mozart Lover's son and keep him strong.)
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To: wagglebee
The courts slid the Terri Schiavo case right passed the American public..now on with the next step with the Euthanasia movements plans?

I hate to tell people I told you so.

9 posted on 10/20/2005 6:09:26 PM PDT by Earthdweller (Proud right-winger who loves this country)
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To: evad
I thought a living will only took affect when a person was unable to speak for himself.

Give them enough sedation, and they aren't able to speak for themselves.

One reason I won't sign a living will or an organ donor card.

10 posted on 10/20/2005 6:18:50 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: wagglebee

Viola Chambers is fighting her own 10 children who are trying to honor their father's clearly expressed will to live. Her desire to have her husband of 58 years die - against his spoken wishes - apparently means more to her than alienating her 10 children in her own old age. Why?


11 posted on 10/20/2005 6:19:15 PM PDT by xJones
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To: wagglebee

I think the wife shoud be considered terminally delusional and have her food and water witheld so she can die that "wonderful peaceful death" that Terry Shiavo did.


12 posted on 10/20/2005 6:27:00 PM PDT by westmichman (I vote Republican for the children and the poor!)
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To: xJones

If I had to guess (and it is nothing more than a guess), it would be insurance money.


13 posted on 10/20/2005 6:27:38 PM PDT by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: wagglebee

Never sign a Living Will.


14 posted on 10/20/2005 6:28:16 PM PDT by kittymyrib
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To: kittymyrib

I've got one, but it is very specific as to who can make any decisions and under what circumstances.


15 posted on 10/20/2005 6:29:51 PM PDT by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: wagglebee

I'd happily volunteer to smuggle the old guy a firearm.

*BANG!*BANG!*
"What part of NO do y'all not understand?"


16 posted on 10/20/2005 6:30:46 PM PDT by RichInOC (Peace through superior firepower.)
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To: wagglebee

"CUSTOMER: Here's one -- nine pence.
DEAD PERSON: I'm not dead!
MORTICIAN: What?
CUSTOMER: Nothing -- here's your nine pence.
DEAD PERSON: I'm not dead!
MORTICIAN: Here -- he says he's not dead!
CUSTOMER: Yes, he is.
DEAD PERSON: I'm not!
MORTICIAN: He isn't.
CUSTOMER: Well, he will be soon, he's very ill.
DEAD PERSON: I'm getting better!
CUSTOMER: No, you're not -- you'll be stone dead in a moment.
MORTICIAN: Oh, I can't take him like that -- it's against
regulations.
DEAD PERSON: I don't want to go in the cart!
CUSTOMER: Oh, don't be such a baby.
MORTICIAN: I can't take him...
DEAD PERSON: I feel fine!
CUSTOMER: Oh, do us a favor...
MORTICIAN: I can't.
CUSTOMER: Well, can you hang around a couple of minutes? He
won't be long.
MORTICIAN: Naaah, I got to go on to Robinson's -- they've lost
nine today.
CUSTOMER: Well, when is your next round?
MORTICIAN: Thursday.
DEAD PERSON: I think I'll go for a walk.
CUSTOMER: You're not fooling anyone y'know. Look, isn't there
something you can do?
DEAD PERSON: I feel happy... I feel happy.
[whop]
CUSTOMER: Ah, thanks very much.
MORTICIAN: Not at all. See you on Thursday.
CUSTOMER: Right."


17 posted on 10/20/2005 6:32:56 PM PDT by decal (Mother Nature and Real Life are conservatives; the Progs have never figured this out.)
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To: wagglebee

Look at the tag line...


18 posted on 10/20/2005 6:37:10 PM PDT by nickcarraway (I'm Only Alive, Because a Judge Hasn't Ruled I Should Die...)
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To: nickcarraway

It's scary, but true.


19 posted on 10/20/2005 6:38:29 PM PDT by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: thompsonsjkc; odoso; animoveritas; mercygrace; Laissez-faire capitalist; bellevuesbest; ...
MORAL ABSOLUTES PING

lj has been busy last few days, I've taken the liberty to ping the M/A ping list.

If you want on/off the M/A pinglist Freepmail little jeremiah

20 posted on 10/20/2005 6:42:02 PM PDT by DirtyHarryY2K (http://soapboxharry.blogspot.com/)
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To: Miss Marple

"...what I am getting from this is that if you execute a living will, or simply make an idle comment, some people believe your spouse has the right to kill you."

EXACTLY!

I already know to whom I'm giving my POA for such matters. She's been my friend since we were 10 years old and knows me better than my husband or child ever will. Plus, she'll fight for my life all the way to the Supreme Court if necessary. Literally, I will trust her with my life.


21 posted on 10/20/2005 7:22:39 PM PDT by jocon307
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To: wagglebee

Unbelievable story!


22 posted on 10/20/2005 7:24:08 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: All; wagglebee; Coleus

Better a Will to Live, which Father Pavone advocates, which can be downloaded, or used as a guide, at nrlc.org.


23 posted on 10/20/2005 7:38:48 PM PDT by Sun (Hillary Clinton is pro-ILLEGAL immigration. Don't let her fool you. She has a D- /F immigr. rating.)
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To: wagglebee; 8mmMauser; floriduh voter; amdgmary

Ping! Here we go again!


24 posted on 10/20/2005 8:02:45 PM PDT by Ohioan from Florida (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.- Edmund Burke)
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To: Sun

Bump to return and check that out later. Thanks for the recommendation.


25 posted on 10/20/2005 8:24:45 PM PDT by Titan Magroyne (Wet Burqa Contest Winner)
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To: Titan Magroyne

You are welcome. :)


26 posted on 10/20/2005 8:33:50 PM PDT by Sun (Hillary Clinton is pro-ILLEGAL immigration. Don't let her fool you. She has a D- /F immigr. rating.)
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To: wagglebee

Soylent Green...is PEOPLE!


27 posted on 10/20/2005 8:49:16 PM PDT by steve8714
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To: wagglebee

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that others change
of mind/heart has been ignored. He was fortunate to
have allies.


28 posted on 10/20/2005 9:02:36 PM PDT by cycjec (doesn't teach or inspire or compel them to think things throughu)
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To: thompsonsjkc; odoso; animoveritas; mercygrace; Laissez-faire capitalist; bellevuesbest; ...

Moral Absolutes Ping.

Culture of death ping.

Freepmail me if you want on/off this pinglist.


29 posted on 10/20/2005 9:44:16 PM PDT by little jeremiah (A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience, are incompatible with freedom. P. Henry)
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To: Ohioan from Florida

South Carolina Department of Health & Environmental Control Division of Health Licensing - October 03, 2005
Anne Maria Rehabilitation and Nursing Center
1200 Talisman Drive, North Augusta, South Carolina 29841
803-278-2170
Administrator: Mr. Kevin Ginn
License or Permit #: NCF-721
Expiration Date: 5/31/2006
Licensee: Anne Maria, Inc.
# Units: 132
Type of Units: Nursing Home Beds
132 Total Licensed Units
Source: http://www.scdhec.gov/hr/pdfs/licen/liclst/hraike.pdf




Among the six Aiken County facilities in the survey, the most deficiencies were found at the Anne Maria Rehabilitation and Nursing Home Center in North Augusta. It had 19, including failure to hire workers with no history of abusing or neglecting residents, failure to keep patients' medical records private, and a medication-error rate that exceeded 5 percent. *

Officials at Anne Maria did not return a phone message seeking comment.

Source: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:vxy7llxLfugJ:chronicle.augusta.com/stories/112102/met_140-7420.000.shtml++North+Augusta+%22Anne+Maria+Rehabilitation+and+Nursing+Center+%22+-site:www.hospitalsoup.com&hl=en

* The last article in my post says they had a 15% error rate.




Resident's mother sues nursing home

The mother of a woman who once stayed at a North Augusta nursing home filed suit Tuesday, alleging that her daughter was sexually assaulted by another resident.

The lawsuit against the Anne Maria Rehabilitation and Nursing Center on Talisman Drive accuses the nursing home of failing to protect the resident from a a 75-year-old man who lived in the next room.

Court papers state that on the night of Feb. 24, 2000, the man, who had been drinking whiskey, inappropriately touched the woman. A nurse heard the woman crying and found the man standing over the bed kissing the woman.

The lawsuit claims the nursing home waited until the next day to take the woman to a hospital. It seeks unspecified damages.

A lawsuit represents only one side. The defendant has 30 days to respond.

Source: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:cGwYrdYLspkJ:chronicle.augusta.com/stories/021203/met_029-7978.000.shtml++North+Augusta+%22Anne+Maria+Rehabilitation+and+Nursing+Center+%22+-site:www.hospitalsoup.com&hl=en




Nursing home manager questions review results

Frank Feltham, the president of Fane Management Inc., which runs Anne Maria Rehabilitation and Nursing Center in North Augusta, says his home isn't nearly as bad as the survey says it is.

Source: http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:Pu3oIQDCqtcJ:www.augustachronicle.com/stories/120802/met_140-7444.001.shtml++North+Augusta+%22Anne+Maria+Rehabilitation+and+Nursing+Center+%22+-site:www.hospitalsoup.com&hl=en

Read the whole article. Wifey must have done her research to find a nursing home this bad.




It looks like they change administrators every other week. Anybody want to see how long it takes them to replace the one they have now?


30 posted on 10/20/2005 11:01:47 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Impeach Judge Greer - In memory of Terri <strike>Schiavo</strike> Schindler - www.terrisfight.org)
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To: Mr. Blonde; wagglebee

One would think that a revoked advance directive should
be disregarded. Why isn't it? Here's one approach, on
a Moral Absolutes basis. This is a mere sketch. We have
no rights in ourselves, and once one grants as a premise
that *sometimes* one has the right to refuse medical treatment
("ordinary" i.e. efficacious, routine, non-experimental)
treatment, one leaves oneself open to death by neglect.
I concede most ppl do not realize they are doing this. Also
that the opposition to the Culture of Death includes many
who don't accept this analysis. Wish I could put it better.


31 posted on 10/20/2005 11:26:38 PM PDT by cycjec (doesn't teach or inspire or compel them to think things throughu)
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To: wagglebee
Viola Chambers sounds like Michael Schiavo.

Ordinary people become death commandos. Their primary mission in life is to kill. It must be a power trip. Once someone gets the power to kill, they don't want to relinquish it; they want to wield it at all costs. Same with the Democratic party and their abortion lust.

32 posted on 10/21/2005 12:10:25 AM PDT by my_pointy_head_is_sharp (We're living in the Dark Ages.)
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To: steve8714

Who woulda guessed that all those years of leaving the toilet seat up....


33 posted on 10/21/2005 12:14:48 AM PDT by Diddle E. Squat
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To: Mr. Blonde
I don't find this to be similar to the Schiavo case. If the man can talk and is lucid and said he wants to remain alive, how is there even any discussion?

I wholeheartedly agree!

34 posted on 10/21/2005 12:27:21 AM PDT by AnimalLover ( ((Are there special rules and regulations for the big guys?)))
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To: wagglebee
Susan Garen, the regional Long Term Care Ombudsman, confirmed Viola Chambers had the authority to direct her husband's care.

I can't believe these idiots. Even when a patient is on Hospice and dying they still receive antibiotics for infections (unless you are Terry Schiavo). I have never seen such things and I volunteer with a Hospice. I think a little common sense would go a long way. If nothing else the purpose would be to keep the PATIENT COMFORTABLE. Even a complete moron could figure that out.

I have never seen or heard of a doctor, a nurse, a volunteer, a family, a patient who didn't understand that the purpose of END OF LIFE CARE was suppose to be in the BEST INTEREST OF THE PATIENT. And we have 100's of patients a MONTH.

35 posted on 10/21/2005 12:47:26 AM PDT by kcvl
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To: wagglebee; 2A Patriot; 2nd amendment mama; 4everontheRight; 77Jimmy; Abbeville Conservative; ...

South Carolina Ping

Add me to the ping list. Remove me from the ping list.

36 posted on 10/21/2005 5:01:50 AM PDT by SC Swamp Fox (Aim small, miss small.)
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To: Mr. Blonde
I don't find this to be similar to the Schiavo case. If the man can talk and is lucid and said he wants to remain alive, how is there even any discussion?

He isn't the first. And won't be the last. How? "It's legal." That's how.

Behold the danger in permitting "the law" to be the primary underpinning of society.

37 posted on 10/21/2005 5:05:03 AM PDT by Cboldt
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To: Coleus; Ohioan from Florida; wagglebee; Earthdweller; DirtyHarryY2K
Pinged from Terri October Dailies

8mm

38 posted on 10/21/2005 5:08:00 AM PDT by 8mmMauser (Jesu ufam tobie..Jesus I trust in Thee)
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To: cycjec
... once one grants as a premise that *sometimes* one has the right to refuse medical treatment ("ordinary" i.e. efficacious, routine, non-experimental) treatment, one leaves oneself open to death by neglect.

"The law" says that the patient always has this right and power. Once man takes that power, which is contrary to God's commandment, no good will come of the decision.

39 posted on 10/21/2005 5:09:52 AM PDT by Cboldt
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To: Mr. Blonde
I don't find this to be similar to the Schiavo case. If the man can talk and is lucid and said he wants to remain alive, how is there even any discussion?

Terri tried to cry out "I want to live" and they yanked her tubes anyway. She was horrified at what they were doing, and they did it anyway. There would be no discussion. She was to die by decree.

40 posted on 10/21/2005 5:28:30 AM PDT by 8mmMauser (Jesu ufam tobie..Jesus I trust in Thee)
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To: 8mmMauser

I remember thinking during Terri's case that the judge, Michael Schiavo and his lawyer should have been forced to spend a few days restrained in a bed and given no food or water. Then the could find out just how "euphoric" the horror of being totally abandoned feels.


41 posted on 10/21/2005 5:34:29 AM PDT by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: Miss Marple
All I wanted was a comfortable room, an occasional visitor, and a TV with Fox NewsAh, now there's the life.

When we were agonizing over whether or not to put my Mama in a nursing facility after a few years at home with a caregiver(she'd been diagnosed with Alzheimer's), my nephew jokingly told his mother that if she got to be a pain in the butt he'd put her in a nursing home. She got back at him, though, when she said, "You mean I'd be someplace where I'd be taken care of, fed, and bathed for the rest of my life? Now, what's the downside to that?" LOL!

42 posted on 10/21/2005 5:41:38 AM PDT by SuziQ
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To: Salamander
I wonder if the missus has a huge insurance policy on him.

Whether she does or not, one cannot help but wonder if insurance companies, with their influence over politicians (campaign contributions) and media (ad revenue) don't have a real big influence in a way of thinking that pulls the plug quickly on inconvenient people.

Keeping these people alive must really cut into profits.

43 posted on 10/21/2005 5:41:57 AM PDT by grania ("Won't get fooled again")
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To: Diddle E. Squat

That's why I always LEAVE it down.


44 posted on 10/21/2005 5:44:50 AM PDT by steve8714
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To: wagglebee
I remember thinking during Terri's case that the judge, Michael Schiavo and his lawyer should have been forced to spend a few days restrained in a bed and given no food or water. Then the could find out just how "euphoric" the horror of being totally abandoned feels.

Imagine the world wide outcry if these critters were held for thirteen days while armed guards prevented not a single drop of water from touching their lips. That is what they did to Terri.

There is a big difference, though. Terri was innocent of all except being an inconvenience.

8mm

45 posted on 10/21/2005 6:11:11 AM PDT by 8mmMauser (Jesu ufam tobie..Jesus I trust in Thee)
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To: Sun
Better a Will to Live,[...] which can be downloaded, or used as a guide, at nrlc.org.

I would strongly recommend to everybody to check the nrlc's web site. It explains the dangers of Living Wills much better than I can possibly do. And you can download a Will to Live that is the right one for the state in which you live.

Click here

46 posted on 10/21/2005 6:27:51 AM PDT by Former Fetus (fetuses are 100% pro-life, they just don't vote yet!)
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To: 8mmMauser
There is a big difference, though. Terri was innocent of all except being an inconvenience.

Imagine if she had converted to Islam. Then the outcry would have turned against her captors, whaddaya think?

47 posted on 10/21/2005 6:43:59 AM PDT by thulldud (It's bad luck to be superstitious.)
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To: SC Swamp Fox

Thanks for the ping.


48 posted on 10/21/2005 8:20:45 AM PDT by upchuck (I BELIEVE CONGRESSMAN WELDON! Rumsfeld: go kick butt and fix this!!)
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To: kittymyrib

Never sign a Living Will.

****

No, you should have something in writing. Some believe in a "Will to Live" which would indicate that the signator wants to be kept alive no matter what. If that's your choice, then do it. But have something in writing.

This is not the same as the Schiavo case. In that case, there was no living will or anything in writing. Here, we have a signed document, but presumably one that goes into effect when a person is incapacitated to the point where he/she cannot make these decisions. Seems to me this gentleman is still lucid enough to make his own decisions; so whatever his wife wants, including trying to enforce the living will, should not apply.


49 posted on 10/21/2005 9:02:49 AM PDT by fatnotlazy
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To: wagglebee
I am only surprised it took this long.

Wide scale euthanasia is right around the corner. After all, it is for the chil... I mean for grandpa!
50 posted on 10/21/2005 9:29:41 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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