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The most corrupt Administration in US history??
none | now | me

Posted on 12/24/2005 8:25:27 PM PST by GodfearingTexan

Please forgive me, but I need some assistance. I had lunch recently with a close family member who insisted that President Bush is leading the most corrupt admin in history. I countered that it wasn't, that in fact Clinton had easily a more corrupt admin and had more people indicted than any other. He replied, no, that was Nixon. I honestly just don't have time to research all of this, and I know that there are people on here that either know the answer off the top of their heads or can tell me exactly where I can look it up.

TOPICS: Government; Politics/Elections; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: corruption; vanity
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To: truthfulnow; wardaddy
Many thanks for your kind words. Merry Christmas to you both.
101 posted on 12/25/2005 11:45:18 AM PST by I. M. Trenchant
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To: geopyg
One of the least understood aspects of the Nixon Presidency is that the Christmas Bombing of December, 1972, after Nixon had been re-elected with what is still the largest majority in the history of U.S. presidential elections (more than 13 million votes) led his badly beaten enemies to realize that Nixon meant what he said: he would continue, as necessary, to use U.S. air power to sustain a viable Korea type stalement between North and South Vietnam. This, together with the sort of sanctimonious prattle of the likes of middie led to an unprecedented, concerted assault by Congress and the media on the presidency -- one that coincided with the budget-minded concerns of a broad spectrum of the U.S. population and nullified the election result. To McGovern's everlasting credit, he finally said, in the summer of 2004, that the result of the election would have turned out no differently even if White House involvement in the Watergate burglary had been revealed in the middle of the 1972 election. Plainly, and simply, when Mitchell was moved out of the White House in the wake of the Watergate burglary, that was as far as Nixon was prepared to go in conceding the guilt of his friend John Mitchell for what had happened [Even at the time, those of us who were savvy in the ways of Washington had a strong inkling that this was a tacit admission of the guilt of CREEP, and in particular of John Mitchell, in connection with this silly bungled exercize in futility].

This being the case, the fuss over Watergate, which made Woodward far wealthier than Nixon ever dreamed of being, was the most lucrative exercize in Stawmanology that any journalist ever pulled off in world history. Worthy of a Barnum & Bailey world! It is no coincidence that the film, The Sting, won the Hollywood Oscar in the same year that Watergate occupied the headlines. When Redford later played the sanctimonious Woodward in another Hollywood effort, All The President's Men, I was surprised that no reviewer of the latter film ever mentioned that Redford's earlier role in The Sting came closer to capturing Woodward's character than did his role in All The President's Men. What I cannot understand is why the Justice Department has not indicted Woodward for having obstructed justice (and contributing to injustice) by shielding the identity of Deep Throat, who was, after all, the 2IC at the FBI and had grievously betrayed his oath to his agency and to his country. There shouldn't be a statute of limitations on treason or of Woodward's faciltation of it. As Ben Stein noted when Deep Throat outed himself, Felt and Woodward bear heavy responsibility for the pointless waste of the lives of 6 million Indochinese (including the 3 million Cambodians whose fate was left to the tender mercies of Pol Pot) when they destroyed a presidency that would have redeemed the enormous loss-of-life by achieving a viable South Korea type democracy in South Vietnam. Thanks for your supporting remarks. Merry Christmas.

102 posted on 12/25/2005 12:28:42 PM PST by I. M. Trenchant
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To: Restorer
I cannot imagine that the Founders meant the clear intent of a state's vote to be voided because of a minor paperwork error.

They were the founding fathers...

...and it appears they wasted no time in getting down to the real business of politics - searching for partisan advantage, blaming the other guy for everything which goes wrong, and arguing about everything.

That's why I referred to that disagreement on this thread.

103 posted on 12/25/2005 1:40:34 PM PST by liberallarry
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To: napscoordinator

Oh please.... the SIL I spoke of knows we love her dearly... but she's learned not to jump into a very lively political discussion... then try to defend Clinton over Bush. She got idealogically "spanked"... but good. They weren't hateful...but tore her points apart. I saw her drowning and pulled her away.....suggesting that she browse the site here and read a few books. We all enjoy lively debates... and if you have to play "PC" and not let your hair down around family.... you sure wouldn't fit in the fold. keep yours and I'll keep mine. K?*chuckle*

104 posted on 12/25/2005 1:57:52 PM PST by LaineyDee (Don't mess with Texas wimmen!)
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To: theOffice


105 posted on 12/25/2005 9:26:55 PM PST by timestax
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To: truthfulnow

Excuse me .. I lied ..?? About what ..??

And .. since you just arrived at FR a couple of days ago - I'd say you are here for only one purpose - and that's to stir up trouble. It won't work!

Go take a flying leap back to DU where I'm confident you'll be much happier calling people "liar".

106 posted on 12/26/2005 1:40:24 PM PST by CyberAnt ( I believe Congressman Curt Weldon re Able Danger)
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To: Restorer

Corrupt. Here are some interesting synonyms: Corrupt people are those believed to be evil, depraved, perverted, debauched, defiled, tainted, stained. They are the type that undermine, impair, damage, abuse, mistreat, dishonor, violate, disgrace, violate, and cause the nation to degenerate. Golly! These all fit Clinton to a T. But so do many of the terms fit LBJ. A few fit Nixon too. Carter gets several after his name. So does JFK, not to mention FDR. Among RATs, it's hard to chose anyone worse.

107 posted on 12/26/2005 2:33:15 PM PST by Paulus Invictus (Clinton is scum!)
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To: Americe_Love_it_Or_Leave_it

Clinton's admin is the gift that keeps on giving -- to whit, Sandy Berger's pants-stuffing only a short while ago.

108 posted on 12/26/2005 2:34:48 PM PST by Inkie (Surround Fallujia and start shooting.)
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Comment #109 Removed by Moderator

To: I. M. Trenchant
...he was among the most gifted and successful of all U.S. presidents, and will be so-judged by history...

I am still proud that the first President I voted for was Nixon.

I am also proud that my 87 year old Grandmother attempted
to attend his funeral.
[She had to settle for visiting his grave site the next day.]

110 posted on 12/26/2005 4:21:52 PM PST by higgmeister (In the Shadow of The Big Chicken.)
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To: truthfulnow

The link you sent me does not prove anything.

I don't know what point you're trying to make.

And .. since you can't make your point - our conversation is over!

111 posted on 12/26/2005 6:06:39 PM PST by CyberAnt ( I believe Congressman Curt Weldon re Able Danger)
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To: theOffice


112 posted on 12/26/2005 6:48:14 PM PST by timestax
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To: higgmeister
Congratulations! No doubt your grandmother saw the funeral on TV and heard the eulogies from a broad spectrum of the U.S. 'body politic'. Every time I see Dan Rather crying on TV, which is dismayingly often, I'm led to think that it must be a result of his inability to suppress the memories of those eulogies to RMN. I think it was RMN's good fortune that his first choice for his library site, Duke University, refused his request. I journied 2500 miles to visit Yorba Linda and found it to be an absolutely lovely site. The architectural setting for the library, the birthplace and the pool is an archictectural gem, the floral accompaniment is a delight and the exhibits are the finest in any presidential library I've visited. There's no doubt about it Nixon Is (Still) The One.
113 posted on 12/27/2005 12:04:19 AM PST by I. M. Trenchant
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Comment #114 Removed by Moderator

To: truthfulnow

Well .. I'm sorry to burst your bubble - but I saw the program on the TV myself. Now .. you can continue to say it didn't happen .. but you would be lying.

Get lost!

115 posted on 12/28/2005 3:13:16 PM PST by CyberAnt ( I believe Congressman Curt Weldon re Able Danger)
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Comment #116 Removed by Moderator

To: GodfearingTexan
He/she must have listened to Harry Reid on Chris Wallace's Sunday Talk Show two weeks ago.... when Wallace started pushing him about the donations Abramhof made to him he got very upset and started spewing that he was honest and this was the most corrupt congress and administration ever -- no facts -- just rhetoric....

IMHO, the most dishonest was not this admin but the Clinton ... remind your friend of Hillary and the FBI/IRS files Hillary obtained, how about all the deaths on their watch??? Waco, Ruby Ridge,

117 posted on 12/28/2005 4:36:39 PM PST by Arizona Carolyn
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
The most corrupt is the President's of the other party. Although Nixon was never impeached, nor did he have the death toll around him like Klinton did. Nor did Nixon try to get someone else to lie to avoid a civil case against him.
118 posted on 12/28/2005 4:49:53 PM PST by Exton1
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To: GodfearingTexan

Don't cast your pearls before swine.

119 posted on 12/28/2005 4:52:03 PM PST by Hoodat ( Silly Dems)
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To: GodfearingTexan

120 posted on 12/28/2005 4:52:34 PM PST by Texas Eagle (If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all.)
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To: middie

I'm trying to remember what evil doing Nixon did that LBJ and Kennedy did not - can you help?

121 posted on 12/28/2005 5:07:05 PM PST by Mr Rogers
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To: truthfulnow

Okay - I've had it with you! You're telling me that the program never existed - that I never saw what I saw. Well .. I'm telling you - I SAW IT!

If you don't like it - lump it - because this is a total waste of my time! I am done with this conversation.

122 posted on 12/28/2005 6:58:43 PM PST by CyberAnt ( I believe Congressman Curt Weldon re Able Danger)
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Comment #123 Removed by Moderator

To: GodfearingTexan

Grant, Harding, Clinton and Carter.

124 posted on 12/28/2005 8:03:16 PM PST by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis, Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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To: truthfulnow
Many historians believe Nixon did authorize the break-in.

Will you kindly name one historian who has said he believes that?

The only individual whom I know has suggested that Nixon authorized the break-in is Jeb Stuart Magruder, and he only said it about three years ago, after having said just the opposite for the preceding thirty years. I know of no professional journalist, author or scholar who gives credence to what Magruder claimed. Even Stanley Kutler, the virulent Nixon-hater who edits, sometimes quite creatively, the periodic publication of Nixon's White House tapes, is on record as saying that Magruder's claim is not credible.

125 posted on 12/30/2005 12:12:30 AM PST by I. M. Trenchant
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To: Mr Rogers

I suggest two books that will answer your quandry. I don't recall the precise titles but I'm sure they're on Amazon. One is, I believe, ''The Imperial Presidency,'' and the other is a three volume sequence by Stephen Ambrose (the late, superb military historian and Pres. Eisenhower's official biographer). There are several others, but those are the ones I've read.

126 posted on 12/30/2005 9:53:07 AM PST by middie
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To: middie
Perhaps you don't realize it, but Stephen Ambrose's most important biography was not about Ike, but rather, it was his 3-volume biography of Richard Nixon. Germane to your post, let me quote from the Epilogue of Ambrose's 3rd volume of Nixon biography:

But neither can it be said that Nixon was guilty of unique crimes for which he deserved singular punishment.

More, in his Acknowledgements to his 3rd volume of Nixon biography, Ambrose wrote:

" volume 1 I developed a grudging admiration for the man (he had been right on the Hiss case, while I had been wrong, he was outstanding in his support for the Marshall Plan and for civil rights; he served Ike well and faithfully as Vice President), in volume two I came to have a quite genuine and deep admiration for many of his policies (detente and China most of all, but others as well), and in volume three, I found to my astonishment, that I had developed a liking for him."

More generally, if you will trouble to read Ambrose's Epilogue to his final (3rd) volume of Nixon biography, you will learn that, although Ambrose had not fully come to realize Nixon's greatness as a leader (for that, see Aitken's book, in which no effort is made to 'coverup' Nixon's dark side), Ambrose came to the conclusion, in the final sentence of his 3-volume biography:

When Nixon resigned, we lost more than we gained

I have come to the conclusion that you are rather like the scientist who proclaimed he did not believe that Einstein was correct when he claimed E=mc2. When asked why he did not believe E=mc2, he replied that he had read somewhere, but didn't quite remember where (you manifest all the failings of a political journalist and none of the makings of a competent historian), that Einstein behaved very badly toward his wife and was, in other ways, a very unsavoury character. Therefore, the disbeliever concluded, he could not accept that such a person could achieve great things; whence E does not equal mc2.

No post WWII U.S. president can claim a record of achievement that matches that of Richard Nixon. This is easily demonstrated by listing his achievements, but I shall not do so here simply because Aitken has done it so well in his Nixon biography. As I have noted previously, Nixon was a serious man who did more than any other U.S. president or vice president to 'tear down that wall' between the free world and the Communist tyrannies. While he gave his magnificent address to the people of the USSR on May 28, 1972, a single action that did more to bring about an end to the Cold War than any other single event -- by bringing a new generation of Gorbachev-like leaders to the fore in the USSR and generally giving glassnost the acceleration that was needed -- a group of bumbling, misguided minions were, completely unknown to Nixon, making their first illegal entry into the Watergate headquarters of the DNC.

Sadly (for your own enlightenment), you persist in focussing your attention on the perpetrators of one of the hundreds of cheap burglaries that occurred in Washington on May 28th, 1972 and ignoring an event of truly historic proportions that was taking place in the USSR when a U.S. president, for the first time, addressed the public of the USSR. It was Nixon's single greatest achievement that he brought about an end to The Age Of Anxiety and the fear of the The Bomb that had plagued the globe for more than a quarter century following WWII.

Sanctimonious outrage is a devalued currency that you would be well to discard.

127 posted on 12/30/2005 1:00:07 PM PST by I. M. Trenchant
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To: I. M. Trenchant

What in the wide, wide world of sports are you talking about? I'm neither your history professor nor your librarian to look up things for you. I read the books and told you where you could find a response your question. I appreciate your vigor about Nixon but I don't recall arguing or issuing a diatribe. Congratulations on your rant; if only I understood it.

128 posted on 12/30/2005 5:24:44 PM PST by middie
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To: Inkie

How soon we forget? The Clinton years were lined up with scandals like dominoes one after another. All the 'gates, controversial cabinet picks, sex scandals, Vince Foster and Ron Brown deaths, impeachment etc....Slick Willie's legacy is rather putrid indeed.

129 posted on 12/30/2005 5:34:03 PM PST by tflabo (Take authority that's ours)
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To: middie
I read the books and told you where you could find a response your question.

I did not ask you a question and I seriously doubt that you have ever read a book.

130 posted on 12/30/2005 9:13:03 PM PST by I. M. Trenchant
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To: GodfearingTexan

Politicians are corrupt.

That is just the way that it is.

131 posted on 12/30/2005 9:18:36 PM PST by Radix (Senator Kennedy actually criticized the President for acting as if he is above the Law!)
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To: I. M. Trenchant

Please visit your private mail

133 posted on 12/31/2005 7:02:42 AM PST by middie
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To: middie; truthfulnow

I seriously doubt your lucidity and thus invite you to refrain from contacting me. To state it in terms that you'd be more likely to understand: Pound sand!

Do you seriously think the message quoted above had to be sent by private mail? You implied in this thread that a notable historian, Stephen Ambrose, had written 'something somewhere' that supported your general view, expressed in this thread, that Nixon's transgressions were more serious than those of his White House predecessors. For the reasons I explicated in post #127 -- by quoting from Ambrose's published words -- this was demonstrably not the case. I hope this is lucid enough.

I have often been startled to find that some of the most ardent Nixonophobes have minimized the significance of Nixon's unacceptable and imprudent behaviour in connection with Watergate. You might be interested in reading an article by Gore Vidal -- surely one of Nixon's most ardent opponents when Nixon was in office. It is titled Not The Best Man's Best Man. It is very well-written, humorous, and is contained in his collection of U.S.A. essays. Vidal not only asserts that Nixon's 'crimes' were petty when compared with those of LBJ or JFK, but that Nixon would be seen, by history, as the greatest U.S. president of the last half of the 20th century. The article originally appeared in Esquire in 1983, more than a decade after Watergate.

Of course, at your request, I shall not, in future, address you or your posts in either the FR or (as I never have and never would because I don't subscribe to private communications in public forums) by private mail. A Happy New Year to you.


Nothing in post #132 indicates that Nixon ever ordered a break-in at the DNC, and I know of no credible sources (Magruder is not credible) who claim that Nixon had fore-knowledge of the Watergate break-in or that he ordered that it be undertaken. Indeed, Stanley Kutler was one of the first to cast doubt, publicly, on Magruder's afterthought about Nixon having had fore-knowledge of the break-in. Being a card-carrying Nixonophobe, Kutler's opinion did much to discredit Magruder's claim. If you can provide quotations to the contrary, I should be indebted if you would present them in this forum. On the contrary, there are several credible sources (Stephen Ambrose included) who have noted that LBJ gave direct orders to J. Edgar Hoover to place a bug on Nixon's election-campaign plane in 1968, but admittedly, I have never found that information in any "lefty source" for the simple reason that it would dwarf the significance of Nixon's complicity (unquestioned by me) in covering up the crimes of his subordinates. I have never questioned that Nixon was complicit in the coverup from the outset. I had believed this to be the case from the moment CREEP and Mitchell were moved out of the White House, long before Watergate became a cause celebre. As I indicated in my first post in this thread (#64), Nixon's complicity in the coverup was likely owing to his certain knowledge that his own general attitudes, which were well-known to his subordinates, had inspired this sort action -- however distant the actions were from anything he himself would have sanctioned if he had known in advance exactly what they were planning to do (especially at the DNC in the Watergate).

All differences of opinion aside, I am pleased to wish you all the best in the New Year.

134 posted on 12/31/2005 1:19:16 PM PST by I. M. Trenchant
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