Israel rules Pollard not prisoner of Zion

Science Daily ^ | January 16, 2006

[Howlin]

JERUSALEM, Jan. 16 (UPI) -- Israel's high court ruled Monday against convicted spy Jonathan Pollard's request to be deemed a prisoner of Zion and repatriated from the United States.

Pollard, a civilian U.S. Naval intelligence analyst pleaded guilty to espionage on June 4, 1986, and received a life sentence and a recommendation that he never be paroled.

He was granted Israeli citizenship in 1996 after Israel recognized his status as a spy and pledged to fund his legal expenses, the Jerusalem Post reported.

However, in court the government argued that Pollard cannot be granted the status because Zionist organizations and activities are not banned under U.S. law.

Pollard's wife, Esther, told Army Radio she found it "unbelievable" that Israel would work to release killers in other countries but let Pollard stay in prison.

[Johnnyboy2000]

"1-4 who cares
5 self-serving
6 & 7 strengthen terrorist"

LOL

#4 should have read "Passed on info to the Soviets."

[Johnnyboy2000]

Of course he cannot back it up. Israel's could nottake these facilities out even if they wanted to. They are too far away for the IAF to hit. Israel could hit Iran with all of its nukes and Iran would still be standing. Iran knows this and doesn't care if a few million Iranians die if it means the destroy Israel in return. That is why Iran is scary. The Israelis need us to take Iran out for them. The notion that the US needs Israel is preposterous.

[rcocean]

Yeah, I'm a Nazi after all. That coming from an ignorant FR troll who routinely discounts the opinion of Jews, aka "members of that tribe". Johnnyboy, you've got good company.

Well, I told Johnny you are a crank, with an obsession regarding "jew-haters" and "anti-semites" and - you certainly proved me right.

I surprised you haven't called George Bush or Cap Weinberger an "anti-semite".

I don't think I've seen one post of yours that isn't a smear or an insult. BTW, I love the little smear technique you have of attributing statements and positions to others they have never made.

Maybe, one day you can actually post something on FR that isn't negative and involves a conservative issue.

[familyop]

It's backed up all over this site. Speculation about Israel and/or the USA taking out Iran's nuclear facilities is all over the press and has been frequently posted to FR. Most are silent on Iran's threat to western Europe for obvious reasons. Western Europe wants the USA/Israel to defend it and to follow-up with the usual anti-Israel and anti-American rhetoric.

Show me any links to articles about western Europe taking out Iran's nuclear facilities.

New Iran missiles can reach London
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1227123/posts

[familyop]

I think the reasons behind the posting of the article and this thread are understandable enough now. Don't you?

[rmlew]

Your argument in defense of Israel, and the facts garnered to bolster it, are praiseworthy and impressive, but I couldn't help but feel trapped when reading it. How much longer are we supposed to put up with this? Are we supposed to patiently listen to these arguments for another fifty years?

What if Truman had not recognized Israel, as many advised him to do? Would it have been wise for Truman to establish diplomatic relations with the State of Israel, thereby legitimizing it, if he had known that fifty years later Israel would still be struggling to survive, struggling to exist?
Thank you for the temperate response.
As to your question, which nation does not face destruction for some period? Was not America a questionable experiment until 1815, if not 1865?
Israel is more at risk than most, but I see no reason to call for the disillusion of Taiwan, South Korea, Panama, or most ex-Soviet states?

The State of Israel with its four or five million inhabitants has occupied an inordinate amount of the world's attention for a very long time. It's tiring. Exhausting really. The present military engagements of this nation are directly linked to the founding of the State of Israel, and the subsequent geopolitical circumlocutions of that event, all the strenuous exclamations to the contrary by Israel's defenders notwithstanding.
1. There are 6.2 million Israeli citizens.
2. Israel has defended itself. The US is not in Iraq for Israel. Iraq in 2003 was no real threat to Israel.
Our current conflict with Islamists would have occured without Israel. The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1923, after the destruction of the Caliphate. Sayeed Qutb traveled America in the 1940's and called for the destruction of the West.
Wahabbism (not to be confused with Qutbism) started in the 18th century. It became prominent thanks to the Saudi clan, who used it as an excuse to call for revolt against the corrupt Hashemites and Ottoman Turks.
The simple fact is that Islam has been spreading by force since 622. The Muslims are either at your knees or at your throat. Since the 1920's, the Western Empires have been in retreat, leaving Muslims free to consolodate power. Jewish control of Israel may be a rallying cry for them, but so is Christian control of Spain, Russia, Greece and Sicily.

Muslims believe that world wide Caliphate is their destiny and that Jihad is an obligation. There can be no appeasement.

[rmlew]

Iran is a problem for the world. However, Israel does have about 100 fighter bombers capable of reaching Iranian nuclear facilities.
Assuming that Jordan and the US allow it, Israel could easily mount multiple missions against Iran. However, this is unlikel. The best that Israel could get would be one shot to cripple the program. They may be able to destroy some facilities and set back the program, but they cannot end it.

[rmlew]

Some people can't or won't understand a clash of civilizations. This is true for liberals (neocons and neo-libs), leftists, and self-proclaimed "realists".

[rmlew]

Nonsense. Nobody believes this. Not you, not anybody.
Really? Two Congressional Investigations support this, as do radio transcripts of the Israeli pilots.
As for my beliefs, yopu are a rather impertinent blowhard to presume to say that I am lying.

[rmlew]

1. it is not known for certain if the attack on the liberty was accidental. There is certainly circumstantial reason to doubt it, but we will probably never know.
There has been a Naval Inquiry, two Congressional Inquiries, and an Israeli inquiry. The results are unanimous.
Recently the NSA released the transcripts of communications by Israeli pilots. These suggest that there was confusion along the entire chain of command.

2. re soviet intelligence FROM israel, it is said that israel gave raw data from pollard to the USSR which they then used to unravel parts of the us intel network in e europe. this is another 'we will never know for sure' item but it would explain the vehement US position on pollard after all these years.
I am aware of the claims. How Pollard is supposed to have passed on intelligence to the USSR to which he had no clear access is a mystery to me. On the other hand Aldrich Ames and Hansen had this knowlege!
I believe that the CIA and FBI covered their behinds by adding charges to Pollard, and failed to clean up. This allowed Ames and Hansen to proceed. Of course, Pollard's crime, while not as severe as has been claimed, is bad enough. He should die in jail.

3. multiple reports over the years of our military tech being traded to china by israel, to the point that they were excluded from a major project recently. It would be more offensive if the chinese weren't perfectly capable of stealing the tech by becoming a sub-contractor here in the US instead.
Israel did sell China the Python-3 and other weapons with the approval of the US. Israel also sold other weapons systems or components, which were imrpoved versionsof american equipment. This is both intolerable from our perspective and stupid from that of sane Israelis.
Still, the US is arming Israel's enemies.

[rmlew]

1. The crew of the USS Liberty responded to inquiries of its nature with the response "who are you"
2. Upon learing the nature of thje Liberty, the Israeli boats offered assitance.

[rmlew]

Washington had the benefit of living at a time when the Moors were in retreat and America could rely on European powers.
We have no such luxury today.

[rmlew]

1) Israel is not concerned with the national security of the United States. They are only concerned with the national security of Israel.
Israel has other concerns such as the welfare of Jews in other countries. It also would have gone to war withe USSR had the Cold War gone hot in the 1970s and 1980s.

2) Israel has stolen US technology and sold it to our good friends the Chinese and Russians.
I suppose Israelis may have stolen US technology and resold it. However, Israel certainly has reverse engineered American equipment and improved upon it. First with American approval, and later without, Israel sold systems to China and Russia.
Still, the US sells or gives weapons to Israel's enemies, and trained members of the PLO who have killed Israelis.

3) Israel has formed a powerful lobbying organization inside the US that attempts highjack US foreign policy so that it serves Israel's objectives.
AIPAC and ZOA are independent from Israel.
And President George H W Bush and President WJB Clinton interfered in Israeli elections to defeat Likud.
The US funds PAlestinian parties who try to destroy Israel.

4) The Israeli Government insults the US time and again by trying to strongarm us into turning over this criminal who jeopardized the safety of all the American people on Israel's behalf.
It is in bad form. However, Israel's recent actions were the reverse.

5) Israel intentionally attacked the Liberty and killed 34 Americans.
Israeli forces attacked a ship which happened to be an Amrican spy ship in the wrong position. Had Israel's request for a Naval Liason been honored, such a mistake could not have occured. Of course, if you think that Israel had enough pull to attack an American ship and get away with it, wouldn't it have been easier to preven thte ship from bing in the waters?
At any rate, this mater has been investigated thorouughly and Israel has apologized for the mistake and paid restitution.

6) Israel founders committed the same types of terrorist acts that they now condemn, but this was before they had the most powerful countries on earth supplying them with modern weapons.
Which Israeli leaders targetted civilians in order to commit genocide?

7) Israel has been a destablizing force in the region for the past 57 years.
Islam has been a destabilizing agent since 622.

8) Nobody pays a higher price for Israel's actions than the American people.
One could also argue the reverse. Israel has failed to respond to attacks and failed to defeat enemies at the behest of the US.

9) Palestinians actually are human beings. They are not some animals that need to be exterminated from the earth. BR<> A. No one is calling for extermination. Under Israeli control, the Arabs of the disputed territories prospered and tripled in number.
B. They can go to the 3/4 of Palestine, Jordan! There are also 21 other Arab nations.

10) Israel would not exist without the help of the USA, USSR, Britain, and France.
The Third Israeli Commonwealth was born with foreign aid. Of course, these countries also imposed an embargo on arming Jews after arming the Arabs.
That Israel survived suggests the influence of a Greater Power.

11) The Palestinian based groups fighting Israel have no plans to take over America, and that is a ludicrous claim.
Youy are utterly ignorant of the pedigree and beliefs of Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
Go read the Koran and Sayeed Qutb and get back to me.

12) The Islamic groups like Al-Qaeda that want to dominate the world and region and attack the US and Eurpoe are not the same thing as the Palestinian people and their groups that want to restore their country.
There has never been an Arab country of "Palestine" except for Jordan.
As for the will of the ARabs of the disputed territories, they support Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, all Islamists. The first two openly call for a military conquest of the world.

13) Israel never has and never will take military action to defend the United States, but their powerful lobbying groups want the US to invade the entire middle east so that Israel can be more secure.
A. Israel conducted certain missions in Lebanon at the behest of the US.
B. At the behest of the US, Israel failed to press military advantage in 1956, 1967, 1973, and 1983.
C. The Mossad was pushed to trade arms for American hostages. Many of these weapons were handed over to Hizbullah by Iran. D. The US has pressured Israel to give up much of its territory, including most holy sites and its capital, at the behest of US interests.

14) Just because someone points out these things, it does not make them a terrorist sympathizer. I have a much bigger problem with Islamists than I do with Israel, but I still dislike the way Israel conducts itself.
It seems to me that you should do some more reading.

16) The Palestinian people should be angry about how they have been treated. The fact that some Plaestinian leaders are evil, insane criminal nuts who strap bombs to lttle kids so that they can kill women and children does not change the fact the Palestinian people were wronged during the founding of Israel.
I take it that you have handed over your home to Native Americans and support the Mexican immigration reconquista?

Israel has some claim on the land. American legitimacy rests solely on force.

[rmlew]

The logic of an Israeli purposeful attack on the USS Liberty is lacking.
If Israel had enough influence to cover-up a planned assault on an American ship, why would it fear any American ship?
Either Israel controled America, or it did not.
Either Israel fixed 2 Congressional investigations and a Naval Inquiry, or the issue has been settled. If Israel had that power, why did it need to attack the Liberty?

Are you suggesting that Israeli leaders chose to attack an American ship, when it was fighting for its life against Soviet-supported forces?

[rmlew]

I wrote:

What has Israel ever done for the U.S.?
1. Failed to press victory in 1956, 1967, and 1973
2. Failed to destroy the PLO in 1983
3. Passed on information on Soviet tactics and weapons
4. Passed on information on Arab tactics
5. Set back Iraq's nuclear program? (OK Israel did that for itself, but we have benefited.
6. Traded captured terrorists for American hostages
7. Traded weapons with Iran for American hostages

JeffersonRepublic.com responded
1-4 who cares
Our Administrations certainly did. American troops who had useful iunformation did.
Anyone who is intellectually honest would. Now you can say that these are triffles, but to dismiss them shows a lack of honesty on your side.

5 self-serving
A nuclear Iraq would not be in Americas interests either.
6 & 7 strengthen terrorist
Yes. Israel helped anti-Israel terroprists at the rquest of Americans!

[familyop]

BTW, the ICM poll was a survey of Britons.

ICM (Poll of British people)
"ICM Research interviewed a random sample of 1,000 adults aged 18+ by telephone on 20-21st April, 2002. Interviews were conducted across the country and the results have been weighted to the profile of all adults.
. . .
"Q3. In the dispute in the Middle East between Israel and the Palestinians, from what you have seen and heard about the conflict which of the two do you sympathise with more, Israel or the Palestinians?"

Israel           14%
Palestine      28%
Both            14%
Neither         23%
Don't know   20%
"

[Johnnyboy2000]

We can agree to disagree I suppose. I am not 100% sure about this because this thread is too long to review in its entirety, but I believe that you are the only person on the other side who hasn't resorted to calling me a racist Nazi, or an anti-Semite so I appreciate you sticking to the argument at hand. I do know where you are coming from in a lot of ways.

My big disagreement with people on your side of this issue is that I feel you guys think it is way too black and white. I have no illusions about what Hamas and Hezbollah are. I feel that is no modern Israeli group that is on a moral equivalence with these groups; however, that is not to say that there is not a legitimacy to the Palestinian cause. The sooner Israelis accept this, the sooner they will ensure their nation's future. Look at the progress made with Egypt and Jordan. It is progress no matter what anyone on either side says. America has to play both sides of this issue for a multitude of reasons. Mainly because we are a world power that has to stay above regional border disputes and civil wars.

[familyop]

"Of course he cannot back it up. Israel's could nottake these facilities out even if they wanted to. They are too far away for the IAF to hit."

The following is old news from many FR posts over the past couple of years. Search for yourself.

The Israeli Air Force can run hundreds of sorties to the sites in Iran and back without refueling. Israel purchased hundreds of our most powerful "bunker busters." Israel has the capability to put nuclear warheads on just about anything, and Israel has enough nuclear weaponry to take out every unfriendly military site and city in the Middle East.

But Iran wants western Europe, and chicken-squat western Europe would obviously continue to cheer for the terrorists while allowing Iran to overrun it.

"Israel could hit Iran with all of its nukes and Iran would still be standing."

That's hysterical--another comment that we'd expect from the likes of Ahmadinejad, Galloway or Livingstone.

[Johnnyboy2000]

"The Israeli Air Force can run hundreds of sorties to the sites in Iran and back without refueling. Israel purchased hundreds of our most powerful "bunker busters." Israel has the capability to put nuclear warheads on just about anything, and Israel has enough nuclear weaponry to take out every unfriendly military site and city in the Middle East."

You are the one who might want to do some research. It is widely known that most of Iran's facilities can not be reached with conventional weapons of any kind including the bunker busters we sold Israel. That means Israel's only real military option is the nuclear option.

Israel is estimated to have between 100-200 nuclear weapons, most of which are smaller tactical nukes. This arsenal would not be nearly enough to destroy all of Israel's enemies and using these weapons would probably ensure Israel's destruction because countries like Syria, Iran, and Libya are suspected to have large stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and possibly even some crude nuclear devices. These nations all have the means to deliver these weapons to Israel.


I stated earlier:"Israel could hit Iran with all of its nukes and Iran would still be standing."

You replied: "That's hysterical--another comment that we'd expect from the likes of Ahmadinejad, Galloway or Livingstone."

Israel is a tiny country that is densely populated. A relatively small number of WMD would destroy the entire country for this very reason. Iran is a huge country that would be devastated by an all-out Israeli nuclear attack, but it would not be destroyed, and it would still be capable of retaliating.

I am saying this as an objective statement of fact. Not because I want these fanatical regimes to destroy Israel. You seem to think that Israel is some super power. In actuality they are a small, vulnerable nation, and they know it. That is why they have this nuclear arsenal. The scary thing is Iran is willing to trade millions of its citizens for the total destruction of Israel, which is where the US steps in. It is the US who will ultimately have to stop this from happening. Nobody in their right mind is depending on Israel to solve this situation because they cannot. They have a very capable military, but taking on Iran is beyond their capacity.

[familyop]

Johnnyboy2000 wrote:
"...however, that is not to say that there is not a legitimacy to the Palestinian cause."

...or more properly called the terrorist, generic Arab cause. Let's have a look at what you call "legitimacy."

'Palestinians agree': Wipe Israel off map
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1550333/posts

Palestinians share Ahmadinejad views
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1550286/posts

NO WORDS! - (Palestinians Hand Out Sweets During a Celebration of Sharon's Collapse!)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1552472/posts

Islam's War Against the Jews: Quotes from the Palestinian Authority
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b6496033b6a.htm


Try reading some history, Guvnuh.

THE GREATEST LIE EVER TOLD ABOUT JERUSALEM
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a5c09f43bbd.htm

The History and Meaning of "Palestine" and "Palestinians" http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b82d69910ec.htm

When 'Palestine' meant 'Israel' [Free Republic]
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b02a9ff21cb.htm