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Vietnam-Like Defeat in Iraq Will Have Far Worse Consequences
RealClearPolitics ^ | October 26, 2006 | Mort Kondracke

Posted on 10/26/2006 10:09:33 AM PDT by neverdem

The political cartoon on my office wall shows Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld as a frazzled father trying to drive the car while kids in the front and back seats yell, "Is it Vietnam yet?"

Daryl Cagle's cartoon was delightful back in March 2003, lampooning critics of the war in Afghanistan. Now it's a mordant commentary on Iraq.

The tragic fact is that Iraq has become Vietnam -- a noble cause that has lost the support of the American people and Congress and is on the verge of ending in disaster. But this time, the consequences will be much worse.

Noble cause? Yes. The United States tried to save South Vietnam from being conquered by brutal communists. After the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, President Bush was trying to prevent weapons of mass destruction, which nearly everyone thought Iraq had, from being handed over to terrorists. And he wanted to bring democracy to Iraq as a model for the Middle East.

I think history shows that the United States and South Vietnam might have prevailed against the North but for the flagging will of the American people and opposition from the media and Congress.

For sure, as recent commentary has reminded us, the 1968 Tet offensive was a colossal military defeat for the communists -- 58,000 killed in two months -- even though it convinced Walter Cronkite and American elites that the war was unwinnable.

And so, it became unwinnable. Once Gen. Creighton Abrams took over as U.S. commander in Vietnam in 1968 and instituted new tactics, U.S. and South Vietnamese forces began winning battle after battle, but, as Abrams complained to his staff, "we never get a break from the umpires" in the media or Congress.

The Nixon policy of "Vietnamization" worked, too. U.S...

(Excerpt) Read more at realclearpolitics.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Politics/Elections; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: democrats; elections; iraq; vietnam
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 10/26/2006 10:09:35 AM PDT by neverdem
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To: neverdem

As I recall, it took an invasion of over 20 Soviet-equipped armored/infantry divisions to defeat South Vietnam.


2 posted on 10/26/2006 10:16:19 AM PDT by Thrownatbirth (.....when the sidewalks are safe for the little guy.)
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To: neverdem

I would love to hear from soliders and folks who are or were in Iraq. My opinion is that as bloody as things are progress is being made.


3 posted on 10/26/2006 10:17:19 AM PDT by jsmaineconservative
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To: Thrownatbirth

Then why does Mort support a Pelosi led House? Hypocrites of the new leftist FOX news.


4 posted on 10/26/2006 10:17:24 AM PDT by Welike ike
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To: neverdem
The tragic fact is that Iraq has become Vietnam

BS. From the beginning, the Left has acted like Brer Rabbit "Oh! Goodness! I sure hope this doesn't turn into another Vietnam!" Meanwhile, they have consistently sabotaged the war efforts through the media and political efforts at home and abroad.

If the Left succeeds, and if the US retreats in shame, the Left will be the quickest to say "See! We told you it was another Vietnam!".

It's exactly what they've wanted from the beginning. We need to stay the course, win the war, secure the Middle East, and break the back of the Left. It's only Vietnam if we allow it to be Vietnam. The enemy completely lacks the ability to turn this into Vietnam. Only Democrats can do that.

5 posted on 10/26/2006 10:22:22 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (The broken wall, the burning roof and tower. And Agamemnon dead.)
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To: neverdem

I keep hearing from the liberals that Iraq has been the greatest recruiting tool al Queda ever had.  What do they think would happen if we pull out and run like cowards?

Handing the jihadis a victory there would truly be the worst thing we could dream of.

Owl_Eagle

If what I just wrote made you sad or angry,
it was probably just a joke.


6 posted on 10/26/2006 10:22:24 AM PDT by South Hawthorne (In Memory of my Dear Friend Henry Lee II)
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To: neverdem


7 posted on 10/26/2006 10:24:21 AM PDT by Toidylop
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To: Welike ike

mort is (as a viewer) dead to me... politically, he sleeps with the fishies.

LLS


8 posted on 10/26/2006 10:25:44 AM PDT by LibLieSlayer (Preserve America... kill terrorists... destroy dims!)
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To: Owl_Eagle

A vote for Pelosi is a vote for Bin Laden.

Terrorists around the World will celebrate in their Caves if the Democrats win on 11/7


9 posted on 10/26/2006 10:26:30 AM PDT by Welike ike
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To: Welike ike
A vote for Pelosi is a vote for Bin Laden.

Terrorists around the World will celebrate in their Caves if the Democrats win on 11/7.

ABSOULTELY NEVER TRUER WORDS SPOKEN. ABSOLUTELY NEVER!!!

10 posted on 10/26/2006 10:30:34 AM PDT by RetiredArmy (Just call be a Rush Limbaugh type of conservative. I ain't cutting and running! VOTE!)
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To: Welike ike

I am very suspicious of your contention that Fox is leftist. You may be simply blind to reality (i.e., Mort is a commentator who is balanced by more conservative and more liberal commentators) or you may be simply trying to stir up conservatives about Fox. I suspect the latter. Perhaps you can enlighten us as to your motives.

Considering how the MSM filters and distorts information to suit their leftist agendas, it's obvious that Fox (especially the news show anchored by Brit Hume) tries to be fair and balanced. It does not always succeed, but it seems remarkably misguided to call it leftist.


11 posted on 10/26/2006 10:33:38 AM PDT by neocon1984 (end the idiocy of post-modernism)
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To: LibLieSlayer
"If the U.S. fails in Iraq, Bush and Rumsfeld will be to blame, just as President Lyndon Johnson and Defense Secretary Robert McNamara were, for grossly misjudging the difficulty of the task and the strength of U.S. will, as well as for mishandling the war, the diplomacy and the domestic politics.

But all of us -- including Democrats in Congress -- will pay the consequences. It behooves them, if they win in November, not to repeat history."

Mort is arguing against a withdrawal from Iraq and the idea of handing the Iraqi government over to a fundamentalist regime. But Pelosi and Reid are so dumb, I'm not sure they would listen to Mort if they win next month. But I'm confident that the GOP will retain control of both the House and the Senate in next month's election.

12 posted on 10/26/2006 10:36:43 AM PDT by defenderSD (Blogging from a secure, undisclosed location in the southwestern United States.)
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To: neocon1984

Fox News is run by a big-government globalist (Rupert Murdoch) who barely meets even the most basic definition of a "conservative." People like this tend to be non-political in their outlook, which explains why Fox is considered a "conservative" cable news network even as Murdoch is hosting cocktail parties for Hillary Clinton.


13 posted on 10/26/2006 10:37:03 AM PDT by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
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To: defenderSD

From your lips to GOD's ears!

LLS


14 posted on 10/26/2006 10:41:56 AM PDT by LibLieSlayer (Preserve America... kill terrorists... destroy dims!)
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To: Alberta's Child

I am sure there is a pony in there somewhere, but the mound of horsesh** you just dished up is too deep for me. How can you go from a supposition to an inference to a conclusion without any statement of fact or observation is beyond me.


15 posted on 10/26/2006 10:49:08 AM PDT by neocon1984 (end the idiocy of post-modernism)
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To: neverdem
Here's my big news for everyone. Ready?

Even if the Dims take over Congress this fall, and the White House in 2008, there still won't be an immediate pullout of Iraq. Except for a few true believers, they know it would be a disaster. They just don't want Bush to get any credit. It's all politics, and as soon as the Donkeys get in power, you'd see the media start to report good news from Iraq, and downplay the suicide bombings, and say what a great job the Democrats are doing.

The Iraqi forces are going to be built up, and a small but isolated US force will remain in or nearby Iraq, ready to step in should things fall apart. Bush himself seems to say that by 2008 most security tasks will be taken over by the Iraqi forces. The Democrats are just playing politics, though I still wouldn't give them a chance to prove me wrong.
16 posted on 10/26/2006 10:49:08 AM PDT by SoCal Pubbie
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To: neocon1984
Conservative Cash For Sen. Clinton: Rupert Murdoch Quietly Supports Senator's Re-Election Campaign

Click Here

17 posted on 10/26/2006 10:54:19 AM PDT by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
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To: RetiredArmy

Retired it is hard to imagine that the American People would vote her Speaker of the House during a war against Islamic Nazi's. She would become the new Frank Church and stymie the CIA, NSA and FBI from Wiretapping and make this Country seem weak to enemy forces around the world.

Airport Security would not be able to racial profile even if the flights were from Syria.

She and Conyers would be a Disaster to American History.


18 posted on 10/26/2006 11:03:55 AM PDT by Welike ike
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To: Alberta's Child

Murdoch is a big supporter of John McCain and will endorse him for the 2008 Presidency. He is only aiding Hillary in case the DEMS win the Senate and he needs help with the FCC.


19 posted on 10/26/2006 11:05:32 AM PDT by Welike ike
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To: Thrownatbirth
And we refused to provide the air cover we'd promised at the Paris Peace Conference. And we cut off all aid at that crucial time to the allies who'd stood with us, whose biggest mistake was to trust us.

Thus, the Democrats and MSM assured a huge human disaster in Vietnam in order to achieve their partisan aims. When they invoke Vietnam, they don't include the complicit role they played in condemning the South to its defeat, the boat people that followed, the Communist takeover in Cambodia, the genocide that followed in Cambodia, or the re-education camps that emerged in Vietnam. The Democrats like to think this was all inevitable, and that they played an heroic role by quiting the fight. Not so.

Today, the same Democrats (Kennedy and Kerry and many others) and the MSM want to inflict the same humiliation on our armed forces and even a worst fate on the Iraqi people. This again they're doing for narrow partisan advantage and the joy of being able to say, "I told you so." And again, when the consequences are a disaster of a precipitous pull out, the Democrats will want to avoid any responsibility for their policy of defeat and retreat. Throughout the Cold War, they also wanted us to give way to the Soviets and strove to assure Communist success even in Central America.

We cannot let them get away with it again. We cannot let them again act as if there is no difference between our enemies and us.

Vote for victory on 7 Nov. It is possible.

20 posted on 10/26/2006 11:12:58 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Global Warming Fears will do for the world what over population fears did for Europe.)
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To: Welike ike
I don't care what his rationale is. He hosted a freakin' fundraiser for her.
21 posted on 10/26/2006 11:41:48 AM PDT by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
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To: neverdem

It is like Vietnam only in the sense that some people are buying into the MSM's contention that we are losing.

In reality, the situation in Iraq, while far from ideal is also far from a disaster. Our casualty rates are lower than those in any previous war, including the one most analogous to this one: the Phillipine Insurgency of a century ago.

The chaos is Iraq is containable, and it draws Islamowaccos that would otherwise be attacking in the U.S. like crap draws flies. The main problem we have is the news media with its "all disaster all the time" meme. They were wrong about what the US was doing in the Gulf War. They were wrong about what we did in the Iraq War. They are still lying today, with the intention of costing us our victory in Iraq because they dislike our President.


Frankly, if we kicked them all out of Iraq we would be better served.


22 posted on 10/26/2006 11:48:27 AM PDT by No Truce With Kings (The opinions expressed are mine! Mine! MINE! All Mine!)
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To: Alberta's Child

Point taken my friend.


23 posted on 10/26/2006 11:51:39 AM PDT by Welike ike
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To: Alberta's Child

http://www.newsmax.com

Sabato sees the GOP surging over Gay Marriage Ruling in NJ.


24 posted on 10/26/2006 12:15:21 PM PDT by Welike ike
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To: Thrownatbirth

I doubt it "took" that many divisions, but it is like that Ron White joke about being surrounded by six bouncers. "I didn't know how many of them it was going to take to whoop my ass, but I knew how many they were going to use."


25 posted on 10/26/2006 12:36:26 PM PDT by thelastvirgil (Lest ye put all your faith in the government to provide for you, check their track record.)
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To: Welike ike
I agree fully with your assessment of the enemies of the Republic, ALL SOCIALIST DEMOCRATS.
26 posted on 10/26/2006 1:24:50 PM PDT by RetiredArmy (Just call be a Rush Limbaugh type of conservative. I ain't cutting and running! VOTE!)
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To: Thrownatbirth
As I recall, and I was there, it was an ungrateful nation, mislead by the omnipresent leftist media, that brought about "our" loss in Viet Nam, Ex-Republic thereof.

Mr. Kondracke is exactly correct about the consequences should we pull another ignoble defeat from what should have been the jaws of victory in Iraq and the broader WOT.

But that might just be my opinion.

27 posted on 10/26/2006 5:09:29 PM PDT by ImpBill ("America ... Where are you now?")
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To: ImpBill
But that might just be my opinion.

An opinion that should be heeded.

28 posted on 10/26/2006 5:12:09 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: jwalsh07

Hello friend. Good to see you in print again.


29 posted on 10/26/2006 5:18:51 PM PDT by ImpBill ("America ... Where are you now?")
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To: neverdem

"I think history shows that the United States and South Vietnam might have prevailed against the North..."

does this make it into the high school history books?


30 posted on 10/26/2006 5:40:57 PM PDT by baseball_fan
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To: All; neverdem; Toidylop; baseball_fan; No Truce With Kings; reformjoy; conservogirl; Welike ike; ...

.

BELIEVE it..or ELSE..!!!!


Pictures of a vietnamese Re-Education Camp

http://www.Freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1308949/posts

.


31 posted on 10/26/2006 8:36:16 PM PDT by ALOHA RONNIE ("ALOHA RONNIE" Guyer/Veteran-"WE WERE SOLDIERS" Battle of IA DRANG-1965 http://www.lzxray.com)
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To: All; Thrownatbirth


.


NEVER FORGET


As Sen. TED KENNEDY fooled Congress into stopping all our funding for the South Vietnamese to fight for their own Freedom with...

...now open KGB Files tell us that the Soviet Union gave $6 Billion in Military Aid to the North for its planned "Final Solution" in the South. Translating into 600 Soviet Tanks and 1,000's of mobile artillery pieces flowing down the HO CHI MINH Trail.

600 Soviet Tanks is more Tanks than Gen. GEORGE PATTON needed to win World War II with in Europe.

Sen. TED KENNEDY is now trying to do the very same thing to a Free Iraq. And he has always known better:


See 5th Photo down...
...taken in October 1965 of a then young Sen. TED KENNEDY touring our Freedom-securing military operations in the Central Highlands of a then Free South Vietnam:

http://www.lzxray.com/guyer_set1.htm





Signed:.."ALOHA RONNIE" Guyer
Veteran-1st Major Battles of the Vietnam War 1965-66

(Vietnam War Photo Collection)
http://www.lzxray.com/guyer_collection.htm


NEVER FORGET


.



32 posted on 10/26/2006 8:55:18 PM PDT by ALOHA RONNIE ("ALOHA RONNIE" Guyer/Veteran-"WE WERE SOLDIERS" Battle of IA DRANG-1965 http://www.lzxray.com)
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To: All; ClearCase_guy

.

CLARITY =


Many come out to show war support across land

http://www.post-gazette.com/nation/20030324antiwar0324p7.asp

.


33 posted on 10/26/2006 9:29:50 PM PDT by ALOHA RONNIE ("ALOHA RONNIE" Guyer/Veteran-"WE WERE SOLDIERS" Battle of IA DRANG-1965 http://www.lzxray.com.)
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To: All; Toidylop

.

Gov. ARNOLD's excellent Freedom-Loving adventure in a Free Little Saigon CA:

http://gov.ca.gov/index.php?/photos/3165/
(Photo Essay)


34 posted on 10/26/2006 9:33:23 PM PDT by ALOHA RONNIE ("ALOHA RONNIE" Guyer/Veteran-"WE WERE SOLDIERS" Battle of IA DRANG-1965 http://www.lzxray.com.)
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To: All; LibLieSlayer


.


NEVER FORGET



The one thing the LOVE Itself needs...

...more of in this world,

...for GOD is LOVE,

...is more LOVE..!!!




And that only comes when...

...people are FREE..!!!



Thus making our Hero Soldiers now bringing Freedom around the world,

...creating more LOVE in the process,


...and their Loved Ones who...

...wait for them to come home...

...or not:



...HOLY in GOD's Eyes..!!!

http://www.Freerepublic.com/~ALOHARONNIE

http://www.RickRescorla.com/The%20Statue.htm



NEVER FORGET


35 posted on 10/26/2006 10:00:05 PM PDT by ALOHA RONNIE ("ALOHA RONNIE" Guyer/Veteran-"WE WERE SOLDIERS" Battle of IA DRANG-1965 http://www.lzxray.com.)
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To: ALOHA RONNIE

Thanks for the ping!


36 posted on 10/26/2006 11:40:27 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: neverdem
Our problems in Iraq and the Middle East in general regarding stabilization is we are dealing with lots of local stupid people who go with the flow no matter which way it is going.

We have enemies within who are working against the success of the war hoping to regain power and they are hurting the effort against terror.

The stupid people of the Middle East are tribal and when they see opposition from the press and activists against the war on terror, they of course will begin to cooperate with what will be perceived to be the winning side.

If they Middle East believes we will win, the people will give up on the terrorist to eventually side with us against them.

We can't afford a terrorist controlled Middle East influencing the world energy market or destabilizing that whole region.

The only way we lose is if we defeat ourselves and that can only be done from the inside out.

As it is, I hear we have not lost a single battle in the Middle East regarding the war on terror and yet, when you read the bad vibe of this article and our press, you'd thing we've been beaten at every turn.

So we have cancer within and we fight it as we fight the war. Makes it 900% tougher IMO.
37 posted on 10/26/2006 11:52:02 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: A CA Guy; All

.


Thank you for your CLARITY, A CA Guy.

Right now, Iraq IS the War on Terror ...win or lose.

And our future descendants are watching for its outcome.

BELIEVE IT..!!!

.


38 posted on 10/27/2006 3:57:38 AM PDT by ALOHA RONNIE ("ALOHA RONNIE" Guyer/Veteran-"WE WERE SOLDIERS" Battle of IA DRANG-1965 http://www.lzxray.com.)
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To: ALOHA RONNIE

GOD, Country, Family... ALWAYS!

LLS


39 posted on 10/27/2006 4:11:45 AM PDT by LibLieSlayer (Preserve America... kill terrorists... destroy dims!)
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To: neverdem

This whole thing comes down to the general opinion of the American people and who controls their.
Wu Cheng'en said in the mid 1500s, "If you think you can or can't, you are right."
If we think we will lose in Iraq then we will.
If we think it is winnable, it is.
I personally think it is winnable, but it may take as long or longer than the cold war did.


40 posted on 10/27/2006 4:11:54 AM PDT by BuffaloJack
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To: BuffaloJack

This whole thing comes down to the general opinion of the American people and who controls their collective opinion.
Wu Cheng'en said in the mid 1500s, "If you think you can or can't, you are right."
If we think we will lose in Iraq then we will.
If we think it is winnable, it is.
I personally think it is winnable, but it may take as long or longer than the cold war did.


41 posted on 10/27/2006 4:13:34 AM PDT by BuffaloJack
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To: neverdem

"I think history shows that the United States and South Vietnam might have prevailed against the North but for the flagging will of the American people and opposition from the media and Congress."

Of course. April 1975 was a conventional big iron battle and one in which we (and the South Vietnamese) would have kicked General Giap's butt.... once again.


42 posted on 10/27/2006 4:21:10 AM PDT by angkor
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To: BuffaloJack

Win or lose... I get tired of hearing about winning the war...FYI..we won the war in Iraq in a couple of weeks...the war we are now involved in is worldwide... In terms of numbers of our soldiers...far more are killed in our inner cities by gang bangers each day than in Iraq.

Also....if we want to preserve our way of life here in America....we better win this war.


43 posted on 10/27/2006 4:27:04 AM PDT by RVN Airplane Driver ("To be born into freedom is an accident; to die in freedom is an obligation..POW input)
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To: ALOHA RONNIE
And our future descendants are watching for its outcome....

My children are 5 and 12, if we should cut and run from Iraq they will pay a very high price....

I was thinking about what I would say to them when they asked about why we allowed it to happen, why they now are forced to return to face the enemy we ran from....

If the Dems should take November and than give Iraq to the Islamofacists......I will conclude that our generation has failed in its obligation to the next.

Make no mistake about it, we will not be able to avoid this conflict....we can only determine where it will be fought and to what degree the carnage will be....

We have limited choices now....if our generation fails to stand and fight...our children will have no choice...

It is becoming more apparent that our generation does not truly understand the magnitude of what is happening across the globe....From the Middle East, across Northern Africa, Asia, and Southern Europe Islamofacism is on the march.....and most do not even recognize this fact or care to understand.

Unfortunately, while our generation can be ignorant today, our children will not be so fortunate......for them the war will be upon our shores....for them it really will be a matter of survival...

The men and women, and their families, of our armed forces are carrying the burden for us today, so our children might a semblance of peace and prosperity tomorrow.....and I fear we as a nation are about to throw that all away.

No, I don't believe it is the Dem's or the MSM fault, they are only part of reason we have lost the will to stand....it is us as a nation, the citizenry, who will decide the direction we take....we will only have ourselves to blame.....and the obligation to explain to our children why we deferred to them the calling of our time....
44 posted on 10/27/2006 4:45:25 AM PDT by PigRigger (Donate to http://www.AdoptAPlatoon.org - The Troops have our front covered, let's guard their backs!)
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To: Welike ike
Terrorists around the World will celebrate in their Caves if the Democrats win on 11/7

But Democrats will lose on 11/7, and terrorists and their backers will be tearing their hair and rending their garments, because they'll know the giant is awake and their asses are in the crosshairs.

The U.S. conceding to the communist-slime war and and propaganda machine in the '70, with Democrats firmly in control of everything, was sadly conceivable and even predictable.

But concession to a bunch of poorly equipped, suicidal, dark-ages maniac thugs without elementary school educations, who barely know how to bathe, because we somehow "fear" them, is inconceivable.

Take heart; it's darkest before the dawn.

45 posted on 10/27/2006 5:03:26 AM PDT by hemogoblin
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To: PigRigger

.

Thank you for your CLARITY, PigRigger.

And for your CARING Heart.

Congresman DANA ROHRBACHER, new father to tripletts, is now afraid that we may not have to wait so long for the consequences of our leaving a Free Iraq to Islamic chaos to reach our shores. He tearingly states that if we abandon Iraq, like we did Vietnam long ago,

...NO Moderate Islamists will side with US across the world in our War against Terror.

My Friend, the End may be near, of which I'm certain.


.


46 posted on 10/27/2006 5:11:12 AM PDT by ALOHA RONNIE ("ALOHA RONNIE" Guyer/Veteran-"WE WERE SOLDIERS" Battle of IA DRANG-1965 http://www.lzxray.com.)
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To: neverdem
What would we do if the demoncrats did their Vietnam sequence? Can the people of each state recall their representatives from the house and senate? Our only choice right now is to VOTE REPUBLICAN!
47 posted on 10/27/2006 6:19:04 AM PDT by Edgerunner (Democrats break...Republicans fix))
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To: Alberta's Child; Welike ike

>>I don't care what his rationale is. He hosted a freakin' fundraiser for her.

Hedging his bets, covering both sides of the fence.

He can't afford to get creamed by unfavorable rulings/legislation, no matter which side wins in 2008. He appears to be doing what a rational CEO looking out for his shareholders should be doing. It stinks, but that's what happens when events in the Imperial City on the Potomac can make or break you.


48 posted on 10/27/2006 7:58:13 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (Guns themselves are fairly robust; their chief enemies are rust and politicians) (NRA)
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To: ClearCase_guy
From the beginning, the Left has acted like Brer Rabbit "Oh! Goodness! I sure hope this doesn't turn into another Vietnam!" Meanwhile, they have consistently sabotaged the war efforts through the media and political efforts at home and abroad.

That left sabotage is what makes it like Vietnam. That and the hearts-and-minds nonsense that we are stuck with.

49 posted on 10/27/2006 2:39:10 PM PDT by arthurus (Better to fight them over THERE than over HERE)
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To: wardaddy; Joe Brower; Cannoneer No. 4; Criminal Number 18F; Dan from Michigan; Eaker; Jeff Head; ...
I'm surprised moderate Morton can appreciate what defeat in Iraq portends.

An Atheist's Defence of Christianity long, but worth it

There's No Security with Democrats in more ways than one

For New York Comptroller (Mark the calendar, you'll never believe! breaking news!) please, don't have a heart attack

From time to time, I’ll ping on noteworthy articles about politics, foreign and military affairs. FReepmail me if you want on or off my list.

50 posted on 10/27/2006 11:25:45 PM PDT by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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