Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Pope Angers Jews, Liberals With Rite
AP ^

Posted on 07/08/2007 8:38:21 AM PDT by doesnt suffer fools gladly

Pope Angers Jews, Liberals With Rite

Conservatives Rejoice as Pontiff Revives Old Latin Mass By NICOLE WINFIELD,AP

VATICAN CITY (July 7) - Pope Benedict XVI on Saturday removed restrictions on celebrating the old Latin Mass, reviving a rite that was all but swept away by the liberalizing reforms of the Second Vatican Council.

The decision, a victory for traditional, conservative Roman Catholics, came over the objections of liberal-minded Catholics and angered Jews because the Tridentine Mass contains a prayer for their conversion.

Benedict, who stressed that he was not negating Vatican II, issued a document authorizing parish priests to celebrate the Tridentine rite if a "stable group of faithful" requests it. Currently, the local bishop must approve such requests - an obstacle that supporters of the rite say has greatly limited its availability.

"What earlier generations held as sacred remains sacred and great for us, too," Benedict wrote.

The document upset Jews, since the Tridentine rite contains a prayer on Good Friday of Easter Week calling for their conversion. The Anti-Defamation League called the move a "body blow to Catholic-Jewish relations," the Jewish news agency JTA reported.

The Simon Wiesenthal Center urged Benedict to publicly point out that such phrases "are now entirely contrary to the teaching of the church."

In reviving the rite, Benedict was reaching out to the followers of an excommunicated ultratraditionalist, the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who split with the Vatican over Vatican II, particularly the introduction of the New Mass celebrated in the vernacular.

The Vatican excommunicated Lefebvre in 1988 after he consecrated four bishops without Rome's consent. The bishops were excommunicated as well.

Benedict has been eager to reconcile with Lefebvre's group, the Society of St. Pius X, which has demanded freer use of the old Mass as a precondition for normalizing relations. The other precondition is the removal of the excommunication decrees. The Vatican did not address the excommunication issue Saturday and there was no indication if or when it would.

The current head of the society, Bishop Bernard Fellay, welcomed Benedict's document in a statement. He said he hoped "that the favorable climate established by the new dispositions of the Holy See" would eventually allow other doctrinal disputes that emerged from Vatican II to be discussed, including ecumenism, religious liberty and the sharing of power with bishops.

The old rite differs significantly from the New Mass. In addition to the Latin, the prayers and readings are different, and the priest faces the altar, to be seen as leading the faithful in prayer.

Benedict, a conservative theologian, has made no secret of his affinity for the Tridentine rite and has long said the faithful should have greater access to it. But more liberal Catholics have suggested that in liberalizing the use of the rite, Benedict was sending a strong message that Vatican II was not the "break from the past" that some view it as being.

In addition to Jewish concerns, bishops in France and liberal-minded clergy and faithful elsewhere expressed concerns that allowing freer use of the Tridentine liturgy would imply a negation of Vatican II and create divisions in parishes since two different liturgies would be celebrated.

Benedict said those fears were "unfounded" in a letter to bishops accompanying the Latin text.

He said the New Mass remained the "normal" form of Mass while the Tridentine version was an "extraordinary" one that would probably only be sought by a few Catholics.

The document "doesn't impose any return to the past, it doesn't mean any weakening of the authority of the council nor the authority and responsibility of bishops," Vatican spokesman Rev. Federico Lombardi said.

However, Cardinal Jean-Pierre Ricard, the head of the French bishops' conference, warned that the move will create divisions. "There will be resistance from both sides," he told Le Monde.

The liberal lay church group We Are Church said that the move represented a step back from Vatican II and could set an even more conservative direction for the church. It warned of a "new split within many parishes, diocese and finally the entire Roman Catholic Church."

"It is to be feared that while it appears to only be about the old Mass, in reality it is an attempt to set the Catholic Church on a new old course," the group said.

Ricard, speaking on France-Info radio Saturday, said the move does not mean the entire church is becoming more fundamentalist. "Just because you have in a family a cousin who is a bit different, whom you tolerate and accept, doesn't mean that the whole family adopts his positions or his way of life," he said.

The document was welcomed by traditional Catholics who remained in good standing with Rome but simply preferred the Tridentine liturgy and have long complained that bishops had been stingy in allowing it, said Michael Dunnigan, chairman of Una Voce America, the largest lay organization in the United States dedicated to promoting wider access to the traditional Mass.

"The traditional Mass is a true a gem of the church's heritage, and the Holy Father has taken the most important step toward making it available to many more of the faithful," he said.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: adl; evangelism; latinmass; vatican
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 81-100101-120121-140141-150 next last
To: dalight

there are christian denominations (or “non-denominations”) that do only require a brief acceptance of Christ along with a prayer.

Most mainline churches require a period of study in scripture and doctrine.

It took my husband 1 yr. to complete the RCIA program to become a catholic.

I have never seen any convert ever have a hard time being accepted.
I have seen some converts struggle with certain issues and choose not to go ahead - but that is what the process is about - and this has nothing to do with not being accepted - but with understanding exactly what teachings you are agreeing to.


101 posted on 07/08/2007 9:29:55 PM PDT by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 97 | View Replies]

To: safisoft

“Believe it or not, Roman Catholicism has done more harm to Jewish people in its 1800 years than Islam in its 1200 years. Not that either religions’ record is good against Judaism.”

Yeah, well when you get your head lopped off, you infidel, then we’ll ask you whether Catholicism is worse than Islam. Oh, that’s right, you won’t be able to answer, as your head will have been lopped off.


102 posted on 07/08/2007 9:31:03 PM PDT by flaglady47 (Thinking out loud while grinding teeth in political frustration)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: MarkL

These people, like Abe Foxman, are nothing more than professional race and religion baiters, who drum up outrage in order to drum up dollars for themselves. They’re no more than self appointed “spokesman” for Jews, and no different than the other shake-down artists like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

Boy, have you got that right. The pimps out to make a buck by constantly stirring the pot. They disgust me.


103 posted on 07/08/2007 9:43:43 PM PDT by flaglady47 (Thinking out loud while grinding teeth in political frustration)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]

To: livius

I agree.


104 posted on 07/08/2007 9:45:46 PM PDT by B-Chan (Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 92 | View Replies]

To: free_life

there is a perfectly fine forum here at freerepublic for religious debate.


105 posted on 07/08/2007 10:01:06 PM PDT by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 82 | View Replies]

To: free_life

“Defend Christ and His love not the evil of catholic religion that is drunk with the blood of the saints and is leading hundreds of millions to eternal separation from God.”

Are you for real? What time today did you climb out from under your rock? The word whack-job comes to mind.


106 posted on 07/08/2007 10:04:27 PM PDT by flaglady47 (Thinking out loud while grinding teeth in political frustration)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 82 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS
Furthermore, Rome was not the actual ruler of most of the Christians even in the Empire. It was no accident that nearly all the bishops who attended the First Council, the one called by Constantine, were from Eastern cities. Christians were a decided minority in the Western Empire. The same was true of the Jews. Despite the age and prestige of th Roman Church, the pope of Rome played a modest role in the course of events following Constantine’s decision to make Christianity the official religion.

What an interesting bit of analysis. Do you have any sources you care to share? I mean the facts are clear, and this is the history I know, but I never got this bit.. like this.

The thing that seems to be always left out of the history of this time is the War between Rome and Persia (Parthia). The 114 Revolt and perhaps the Bar Kochba revolt seem to have to been amongst other things, skirmishes that stopped the Romans from their goal of conquering and holding all of Parthia and thus enslaving the Greater Jewish community that this and prior Persian and Babylonian Empires had sheltered ever since the fall of the First Temple.

107 posted on 07/08/2007 10:19:48 PM PDT by dalight
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 96 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife
I think, when you talk about 1 year to convert to a mainline denomination, you are talking about eligibility for Membership more than about acceptance of the conversion. I bet that a one day converso can pretty much access all of the rites and benefits of even the most stodgy Christian community. Burial, Communion and even after a short period (longer than a day but less than a year) marriage in the Church all seem to be front loaded. Perhaps I am wrong.

As for Converting to Judiasm, well good luck. There seems to always be someone who will claim you aren't Jewish enough if you weren't born Jewish.

Recently there has been a squabble between the Orthodox that effectively invalidated all of the conversions performed by American Orthodox Rabbi's. And, of course this causes convulsions. But, some think this is appropriate. Personally, I see this as a sign of folks who have lost their way and they I am sure, believe I have lost mine. Yet, we still keep plugging away at it.

108 posted on 07/08/2007 10:52:10 PM PDT by dalight
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 101 | View Replies]

To: Rightfootforward
As for the rest of it, I couldn’t care less what French liberals or anyone else thinks about the Pope’s decisions. Why should I? Others don’t ask him how they should run their faiths. This whole thing is ridiculous.

I can understand why the Lefties are upset. I'm Catholic. In the US, I can show up at any Catholic church I please, partake in Mass, leave a donation, and leave. If one church is more to my liking than the one closest to me, than that church is the one that gets my attendance and donation

109 posted on 07/09/2007 4:30:08 AM PDT by SauronOfMordor (Open Season rocks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymLJz3N8ayI)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife

Good grief. We regularly pray for the conversion of everybody — even our own who have fallen away.


110 posted on 07/09/2007 6:01:35 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Raycpa
Can we pray for liberals to be converted to conservative ?

Absolutely! I do it all the time. ;^)

111 posted on 07/09/2007 6:17:19 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: quadrant
"I’ve never been offended by their prayers, as any prayers to God on my behalf are welcomed."

Amen, Alleluia.

112 posted on 07/09/2007 6:31:21 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (What does the LORD require of you, but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 89 | View Replies]

To: Alouette

>>Alouette is not upset. If someone wants to pray for my conversion, let ‘em. Just as long as they don’t threaten to cut off my head if I don’t convert, like some other “Religion of Peace.”<<

I can’t tell you how much I love you!
The voice of reason speaks up.
Anyone can pray for my conversion to anything as long as I keep my head and my girls are not in Burkas.


113 posted on 07/09/2007 7:34:24 AM PDT by netmilsmom (To attack one section of Christianity in this day and age, is to waste time.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife

Mel Gibson and Abe Foxman are equally as bad.


114 posted on 07/09/2007 7:39:55 AM PDT by Suzy Quzy (Hillary in '08.....Her PHONINESS is GENUINE !!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: GinaLolaB

Jews and Liberals are angry because Catholics pray for their conversion and souls?

Wow, now if they could only muster that sort of rage for communists and muslim fanatics who pray for their painful and gruesome deaths for the good of their causes there might be some hope left for them after all.


115 posted on 07/09/2007 7:46:09 AM PDT by HamiltonJay
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife
Tridentine rite contains a prayer on Good Friday of Easter Week calling for their conversion”

Actually so does the Novus Ordo. The "concern" about this prayer seems to center on what the prayer used to say before 1960 when Blessed John XXIII took out the adjective "perfidious" (faithless) in front of Jew. The argument is silly as it will not be a part of the Tridentine form of the Latin Rite since it was already gotten rid of by the time of the 1963 Missal which is the Missal which will be used. However, if the argument is that we Catholics should not pray for the conversion of the separated or those outside Christianity... too bad.

116 posted on 07/09/2007 10:12:22 AM PDT by Diva
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Clara Lou
or else it would also be in the English Mass. It is in the English service...not a Mass, no Masses on Good Friday.
117 posted on 07/09/2007 10:24:43 AM PDT by Diva
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Rightfootforward
Good grief. Everyone sit down, take a deep breath and relax. Unless I misread the article, the so-called “conversion prayer” is only said on Good Friday and/or at one (1) Mass per year.

You would think freepers would know better than to trust the news media. You are correct we all need to relax about this issue. First the Litany of Prayers is not in a Mass per say as there are no Masses on Good Friday. The Litany for the conversion of all of those outside the Roman Catholic Church is still a part of the Novus Ordo Liturgy and may be prayed on Good Friday as a part of the Tre Ore services, Communion may also be distributed but no Mass is Celebrated. There may also be veneration of the Cross and a recitation of or sung Passion.

The complaint seems to have either transformed in the past few weeks or taken on another form. The first complain I heard was the use of the word perfidious in from of Jew, well that word was removed from the Litany in 1960 as several Freepers have already posted. The Second complaint seems to center around the audacity of Catholics to pray for the conversion of Jews. Well, too bad for those who fear this prayer.

118 posted on 07/09/2007 10:36:57 AM PDT by Diva
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | View Replies]

To: safisoft; sittnick; ninenot; Tax-chick; Nachum; ChicagoHebrew; SJackson
I'll bet you have specific fantasies to back up your general libel of my Church. Do not ascribe individual anti-Semitism to some general Church policy unless you can back it up with specifics.

For my bona fides in regard to Jews, Judaism, Israel, I refer you to Nachum, Chicago Hebrew and S. Jackson for starters. More references available on request.

When you post what you have posted, you cause the less sophisticated Catholics and some schismatics to return your serve with their volley.

If your point is that some who were baptized Catholic unjustly sinned against Jews, fine. No Catholic ever denied that each and every human, including each and every Catholic, is a fallen human being, tainted by original sin and attainted by a tendency to actual sins.

BTW, Christ was crucified at some time between 29 and 33 AD (or CE if you prefer). We've not been around as a Church for two millenia. If we had been, you would be accusing the Roman Catholic Church of being devoted to exterminating the Jewish people throughout its history. Can you understand that such an accusation is as offensive was the old blood libel that has caused such suffering among Jews.

Just as reasonable Catholics refuse to blame all Jews for Christ's death and would limit that accusation to Annas and Caiphas and the little mob demanding His death, just as them innocent Jewish families preparing for Passover Seder all over Jerusalem that day had no guilt whatsoever for His death much less do other Jews of other time and places. No one in that mob is still alive. No Jew of our times can possibly be morally responsible for the crucifixion in any way not shared with every sinful Catholic (which is to say every Catholic).

Either Annas or Caiphas, told by Pontius Pilate that he found no guilt in Christ, replied: "Let His blood be upon us and upon our children." So, who authorized Annas or Caiphas to shift a share of the blame to the innocent? No one. If the reference on Good Friday services to "perfidious Jews" meant all Jews, it would be redundant. In the same way, there are perfidious Christians of all sorts including perfidious Catholics.

In any event, the Simon Wiesenthal Center for pushing liberal agendas in the name of Holocaust victims has time to attack the pope for his decisions as to Catholic worship practices, it has too much time on its hands.

To sum up: Catholics have certainly sinned against Jews but the extermination of the Jewish people is not a Catholic agenda. When Jews accuse the Roman Catholic Church of such an agenda, they sin against us.

We regard Jews as our elder brothers and sisters in faith. Our faiths are not identical. God did make a covenant with Abraham that was not limited in time. Although we Catholics believe in a new covenant, Jesus Himself said: I come not to abolish the law but to fulfill it. To me at least, that suggests that the old covenant of Abraham is still in force and that there is a new covenant available to Gentles. If you do not believe in that new covenant, that is understandable but it is a monstrous distortion to suggest that Catholicism promoter genocide against Jews.

Hitler, BTW, may have been baptized and may have been an altar boy in his youth but, in adulthood (if that is the right term) he was no more Catholic by belief or practice than was Margaret Sanger (who was baptized at White Plains), or any number of other monsters. Are there not Jews who have persecuted their own? We have analogous types whom we excommunicate by canon law or more publicly.

Finally, we Catholics would have to be completely schizophrenic to be antiSemitic since we worship Jesus of Nazareth (certainly a Jew by descent from his mother) as God and venerate his Jewish mother as the only other sinless human in the history of the human race to reach the age of reason. That does not mean that there have not been such schizophrenics. All too shamefully, there have been all too many. Anti-Semitism is NOT an article of the Catholic faith. If we pray for Jews to be converted, that is NOT an insult but rather a desire to share our faith, our Mass and our sacraments with Jews who have converted. We aren't drafting them into Catholicism. To love is to want what is best for the loved one. Christian faiths tend to be evangelical in ways that Judaism is not. To pray for conversion is to love and not to hate.

119 posted on 07/09/2007 11:37:26 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Diva

Thank you, Diva. Your post was amazingly informative.


120 posted on 07/09/2007 11:45:16 AM PDT by Rightfootforward
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 118 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 81-100101-120121-140141-150 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson