Posted on 07/08/2007 8:38:21 AM PDT by doesnt suffer fools gladly
Pope Angers Jews, Liberals With Rite
Conservatives Rejoice as Pontiff Revives Old Latin Mass By NICOLE WINFIELD,AP
VATICAN CITY (July 7) - Pope Benedict XVI on Saturday removed restrictions on celebrating the old Latin Mass, reviving a rite that was all but swept away by the liberalizing reforms of the Second Vatican Council.
The decision, a victory for traditional, conservative Roman Catholics, came over the objections of liberal-minded Catholics and angered Jews because the Tridentine Mass contains a prayer for their conversion.
Benedict, who stressed that he was not negating Vatican II, issued a document authorizing parish priests to celebrate the Tridentine rite if a "stable group of faithful" requests it. Currently, the local bishop must approve such requests - an obstacle that supporters of the rite say has greatly limited its availability.
"What earlier generations held as sacred remains sacred and great for us, too," Benedict wrote.
The document upset Jews, since the Tridentine rite contains a prayer on Good Friday of Easter Week calling for their conversion. The Anti-Defamation League called the move a "body blow to Catholic-Jewish relations," the Jewish news agency JTA reported.
The Simon Wiesenthal Center urged Benedict to publicly point out that such phrases "are now entirely contrary to the teaching of the church."
In reviving the rite, Benedict was reaching out to the followers of an excommunicated ultratraditionalist, the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who split with the Vatican over Vatican II, particularly the introduction of the New Mass celebrated in the vernacular.
The Vatican excommunicated Lefebvre in 1988 after he consecrated four bishops without Rome's consent. The bishops were excommunicated as well.
Benedict has been eager to reconcile with Lefebvre's group, the Society of St. Pius X, which has demanded freer use of the old Mass as a precondition for normalizing relations. The other precondition is the removal of the excommunication decrees. The Vatican did not address the excommunication issue Saturday and there was no indication if or when it would.
The current head of the society, Bishop Bernard Fellay, welcomed Benedict's document in a statement. He said he hoped "that the favorable climate established by the new dispositions of the Holy See" would eventually allow other doctrinal disputes that emerged from Vatican II to be discussed, including ecumenism, religious liberty and the sharing of power with bishops.
The old rite differs significantly from the New Mass. In addition to the Latin, the prayers and readings are different, and the priest faces the altar, to be seen as leading the faithful in prayer.
Benedict, a conservative theologian, has made no secret of his affinity for the Tridentine rite and has long said the faithful should have greater access to it. But more liberal Catholics have suggested that in liberalizing the use of the rite, Benedict was sending a strong message that Vatican II was not the "break from the past" that some view it as being.
In addition to Jewish concerns, bishops in France and liberal-minded clergy and faithful elsewhere expressed concerns that allowing freer use of the Tridentine liturgy would imply a negation of Vatican II and create divisions in parishes since two different liturgies would be celebrated.
Benedict said those fears were "unfounded" in a letter to bishops accompanying the Latin text.
He said the New Mass remained the "normal" form of Mass while the Tridentine version was an "extraordinary" one that would probably only be sought by a few Catholics.
The document "doesn't impose any return to the past, it doesn't mean any weakening of the authority of the council nor the authority and responsibility of bishops," Vatican spokesman Rev. Federico Lombardi said.
However, Cardinal Jean-Pierre Ricard, the head of the French bishops' conference, warned that the move will create divisions. "There will be resistance from both sides," he told Le Monde.
The liberal lay church group We Are Church said that the move represented a step back from Vatican II and could set an even more conservative direction for the church. It warned of a "new split within many parishes, diocese and finally the entire Roman Catholic Church."
"It is to be feared that while it appears to only be about the old Mass, in reality it is an attempt to set the Catholic Church on a new old course," the group said.
Ricard, speaking on France-Info radio Saturday, said the move does not mean the entire church is becoming more fundamentalist. "Just because you have in a family a cousin who is a bit different, whom you tolerate and accept, doesn't mean that the whole family adopts his positions or his way of life," he said.
The document was welcomed by traditional Catholics who remained in good standing with Rome but simply preferred the Tridentine liturgy and have long complained that bishops had been stingy in allowing it, said Michael Dunnigan, chairman of Una Voce America, the largest lay organization in the United States dedicated to promoting wider access to the traditional Mass.
"The traditional Mass is a true a gem of the church's heritage, and the Holy Father has taken the most important step toward making it available to many more of the faithful," he said.
Ironically, I suspect most of the folks at the Wiesenthal Center aren't really Jewish anyway.
I have never been able to reconcile in my mind, nor have I ever heard an acceptable response from a liberal Catholic on how they can call themselves good Catholics and yet be pro-Choice. Abortion is murder, plain and simple.
Granted I am pro-death penalty but there is a huge difference between sticking a needle in the arm of a serial killer and suctioning out a baby from the womb. What crime against humanity has an unborn baby ever committed?
So what? Pray for Catholic conversion to Judaism.
The whole brouhaha is just that and nothing more. The prayer does not need to be in the Latin Mass, or else it would also be in the English Mass. Or change it so that it a prayer for the conversion of everyone who isn’t Roman Catholic. (Of course, that could create other problems.) Sheesh. The Southern Baptists are always praying for everyone who isn’t SB to be converted. Also, I think the unhappy Jews are being a tad touchy, although I think I understand the basis of their problem with the Latin prayer.
There are so many ways out of this molehill of a problem. Somebody do something so that people can move on to some truly critical issues.
I notice the validity of this viewpoint is dependent upon who states it....
What a load of tripe! Had the Catholic Church's position been to "wipe Judaism off the face of the earth" there would be no Jews today. Further, without the Catholic Church there would likely be far fewer Jews in the world today.
There were crimes committed by men in the name of the Church, but that was not Catholic dogma. The "crimes" you are referring to occurred primarily in areas retaken from Islam in which local powers sought to purge all non-Christian influences. Every Catholic nation had and has significant Jewish populations. If you want to delve into ancient history let's discuss how the Philistines were dealt with by the Jews too.
In case anybody on this board cares about a completely nonstatistical sentiment, this particular yid doesn’t mind at all if people just pray for my conversion. I’ve never expected anybody to be committed to a religion without believing it was true, and if you think it’s true you pretty much have to think that everyone who doesn’t agree with you is wrong. The issue is what they do about it. If they just pray, I have no problem with that (though non-Jewish freepers should be aware that the Jews don’t even do that about non-Jews; we actually make it difficult to convert and never go around trying to talk non-Jews into becoming Jews). It’s when they start getting pushy that we get worried, as we’ve had lots of experience with that impulse and none of it is good. The Church had a bad record on that for a long time, and though it was a long time ago we have a long memory. (Someone once asked my dad why we hadn’t forgiven the Germans already, as WWII ended 50 years ago; his answer was “we haven’t even forgiven the Egyptians yet”).
Having said all that, Freepers are absolutely right, and much of the Jewish world is absolutely wrong, in focusing on this to the exclusion of the crazy islamists who want to cut off our heads on television. I think part of the reason for that discrimination is what one wise man has referred to as “the soft bigotry of low expectations.” We expect the Arabs and other Muslims to act like bloodthirsty lunatics, so when they do we ignore it. At least with Western religions we expect them to be civilized and we also expect them to speak to us about it when they make us uncomfortable. The freepers are right to be annoyed by this distinction; it annoys me too. Try to understand it as a compliment. The Jews know that His Holiness can be spoken to about this stuff. Nobody goes and talks to Hamas or Hizbollah about the fact that it really isn’t nice to preach hatred of Jews (or Christians, or Bahais, or Sikhs, or Hindus or gays, or etc etc etc).
How many Jews did Hitler’s ally the Grand Mufti save from the gas chambers in comparison to Eugenio Pacelli’s 850,000+ during the second world war? Your assertions are replete with lies. Nice job violating the Eighth Commandment.
Is it your wish to continue your oppression or do you just want reparations? ;)
Without in any way trying to minimize the historic crimes of Catholics against Jews, if what you say is true, why is it that of the 15 million Jews in the world today, there are 9 million in Israel, 6 million in historically Catholic countries, and exceedingly few --- less than 50,000 --- in majority-Muslim nations?
Historically Jews have suffered greatly at the hands of the nations among whom they lived. Today the Catholic world repents such crimes and calls them them evil and shameful. And the Muslim world applauds such crimes, acquires the means for the extermination of Israel, and relentlessly prepares to finish the Shoah.
It’s nobody’s business except the churches business. I’m thrilled the Latin Mass is back.
“Freepers are absolutely right, and much of the Jewish world is absolutely wrong”
Just as many Christians who support the “crazy Islamists” are wrong. And I can say that. I am Roman Catholic.
“The Roman Church has been the enemy of Judaism for 1800 years”
Your opinion subject to debate.
“And yes, no matter what RC apologists may say”
really? You’ve managed to negate anything a catholic “may say”. based on what?
Here are a few articles that include what a catholic “may say” - although it’ll make “no matter” to you.
http://catholiceducation.org/links/search.cgi?query=inquisition&submit.x=16&submit.y=6
“. Believe it or not, Roman Catholicism has done more harm to Jewish people in its 1800 years than Islam in its 1200 years”
Again...your opinion subject to debate.
Some would say...even some jews...that the Church has been their friend in dark times.
Although I do understand how jews get skittish over people like Mel Gibson claiming their views as correct teaching.
There certainly is a whacko anti-semitic element out there, and they seem to flock to the sedevanticist movement.
They are the 9/11 conspiricists of the catholic church - even though they don’t belong to the catholic church.
When will the Talmud be revised and its antichristian, antigentile portions be excised?
“We expect the Arabs and other Muslims to act like bloodthirsty lunatics, so when they do we ignore it.”
ok...that does make sense.
Thanks for a great post!
Main Entry: per·fid·i·ous
Pronunciation: (")p&r-'fi-dE-&s
Function: adjective
: of, relating to, or characterized by perfidy
synonym see FAITHLESS
- per·fid·i·ous·ly adverb
- per·fid·i·ous·ness noun
Main Entry: per·fi·dy
Pronunciation: 'p&r-f&-dE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -dies
Etymology: Latin perfidia, from perfidus faithless, from per- detrimental to + fides faith -- more at PER-, FAITH
1 : the quality or state of being faithless or disloyal : TREACHERY
2 : an act or an instance of disloyalty
If you choose to live among us, with all the suffering that entails, you should be more tolerant of our religious practices.
Apparently you are wrong once again. It's everybodys business when it's in the news and open forums like this. I know it may upset you that you may be exposed to opinions that don't coincide with yours but that's the dangers of an open society.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.