Posted on 07/31/2007 9:15:42 PM PDT by goldstategop
The Intellectual Origins Of America-Bashing (Fascinating!)
PolicyReview.org | Dec, 2002 | Lee Harris
Posted on 05/08/2004 6:45:29 AM EDT by Remember_Salamis
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1131830/posts
I, for one, do not discount the Arab complaints of the Jewish settlements. They complainted repeatedly against the Ottoman's policies in Palestine brought forth by representatives to the Porte as soon as the Aliyah started. The Ottomans chose to ignore Palestinian complaints in favor of continuing land sales to the Zionists.
Legally though, the Palestinians had little to stand on. They sold the land to the effendis. The fact that they believed they still had a title to these lands was somewhat naive. But it was the way it was. The Jews had a bill of sale and the land was their both legally and with the express permission of the Ottomans, who allowed the sales and encouraged Jewish immigration.
No, Jabotinsky did not found the Jewish legions. Bar Giora organization was founded in 1907 in the home of Yitzhak Ben-Zvi, who was David Ben Gurion's right hand man. From within these communes of workers and guards Hashomer was founded in 1909 to defend the moshavs and kibbutzim from the Arabs.
In 1920 the Haganah was formed as a "grassroots" military organization. The Haganah along with the Palmach became the IDF in 1948.
In 1931 a group of Haganah members seceded from the organization, which was headed by Avraham Tehomi. This breakaway groiund was known as the Irgun or Etzel. This organization received the full backing of Ze'ev Jabotinsky's Revisionist Party.
I disagree with your interpretation.Well, that is certainly allowed, but besides your fascination with Mr. Jabotinsky's writings, the tensions between Jews and Arabs were a slow boil brought on mainly by British policies. The 1920 riots and the White Paper of 1922 would be more important in the context of history than your reliance on Jabotinsky's writings.
But let us not deceive ourselves. The violence directed at the Jews was due to the fact that the Muslims could not tolerate the Zionists, their socialist ideals, and the fear that rising Jewish immigration would mean Arab land would be used for a Jewish state. What Jabotinsky wrote in 1923 would come to pass in 1948, but I think it is wrong to impose The Iron Wall on the Histadrut at the time Jabotinsky wrote it. In fact, Jabotinsky was labelled an extremist and his ideas discounted. His approach was not the politics of the Jewish Agency until the Arab riots of 1936, the White Paper of 1939, and of course the Holocaust, which would change everything.
PS - You sound like a man who has read Avi Schlaim!
Legally though, the Palestinians had little to stand on
So much for legality. The Ottomans forced Arab farmers to sell their lands, then sold them to Jews. The Arabs didn't like the Turks, but they liked the Jews even less. Everyone had good reasons for doing what they did.
No, Jabotinsky did not found the Jewish legions
Even if what you say is technically true Zhabotinsky played a major role in their organization and use in WWI...and his influence hardly disappeared in the interwar period.
...the tensions between Jews and Arabs were a slow boil brought on mainly by British policies...But let us not deceive ourselves. The violence directed at the Jews was due to the fact that the Muslims could not tolerate the Zionists, their socialist ideals, and the fear that rising Jewish immigration would mean Arab land would be used for a Jewish state.
Here you contradict yourself...
What Jabotinsky wrote in 1923 would come to pass in 1948
Here you admit to Zhabotinsky's importance
but I think it is wrong to impose The Iron Wall on the Histadrut at the time Jabotinsky wrote it. In fact, Jabotinsky was labelled an extremist and his ideas discounted. His approach was not the politics of the Jewish Agency until the Arab riots of 1936, the White Paper of 1939, and of course the Holocaust, which would change everything.
And here you show how wrong the socialist were, how intolerant they were, and how, ultimately untruthful and unwilling to admit error.
They behaved the same way all over the world.
I am glad that you are fascinated by Jabotinsky's insight, but to David Ben Gurion and the other leades of Yishuv, he was an extermist. Ben Gurion's policies are the ones that held sway over the Yishuv and not Jabotinsky's.
No, Jabotinsky did not play a major role in the organization of the Haganah or the Palmach of which the IDF would emerge.
I hope I did not contradict myself. But just in case I did, I will try to say it again.
The situation in Palestine was not black and white as some would make it. The Palestinians had a real fear that their land would be used to make an Arab state. They saw British policy as the means to that end. The violence perpetuated in Palestine from 1920 until 1948 was against the British, but because they could not attack the British directly, they attacked the Zionists. But it was British policy that would be the major source of Arab violence and British capitulation in the face of Arab violence that would keep producing violence against the Zionists as a means of trying to rid Palestine of both Zionists and the British. The Palestinians wanted their own state. They did not want to share it with the Jews or lose any portion to the Jews, which they detested on religious and political grounds. I don't think that is a contradiction. The fact that they rioted and murdered Jews had to do with British policy. So, the 1920 riot and the White Paper that followed produced much more tension in the Yishuv than the sale of 7% of the land. The 1922 White Paper caused 30% of the Arabs to be forced from their lands and jobs since the British forced the Jews to absorb the immigrants, which meant jobs and a livelihood had to be waiting.
No, I do not give importance to Jabotinsky's. He was an extremist with a minority following. The events from 1920 to 1949 were what determined what happened in the Yishuv and how the Histradrut responded to both the British and the Arabs.
Where did I show how wrong the socialist were, how intolerant they were, and how, ultimately untruthful and unwilling to admit error?
I don't think we discussed what I think of Ben Gurion and the actions taken by the Yishuv during this time frame.
No, the Ottomans did not force the Arabs to sell their land. The Arabs did that so they would not have to pay their taxes. There is a difference.
from an earlier post:
In trying to draw power back to Istanbul and away from the periphery, the Ottomans leveled taxes against the farmers in all of the empire. The system was corrupt and the taxes were far too burdensome for the local farmers to bear. To stop paying taxes, the farmers made a deal with the effendis. They would sell them their land and keep working it as if nothing happened. This very real sale had consequences. The effendis sold it to the Jews.
I have no interest in continuing this conversation.
Well, I’m sure you consider yourself an expert on the subject. But have done a bit more homework on this subject than just reading a Medved article. I stand by what I written, general as it is, until convinced otherwise by a cited and reputable historical source.
The Ottomans imposed heavy taxes on the farmers that they could not bear. So, to get around paying the taxes, the Arabs sold the land to the effendis and kept working the land as if nothing had happened.
The Ottomans did not force the Arabs to sell the land. The Arabs sold the land quite willingly to circumvent the Ottoman tax system, which was burdensome.
I do not understand what has gotten you so upset that you have broken off all conversation.
I was in Guatemala in 1974-1975, and was not aware of any large influx of foreigners into the Indian towns or villages. I am not saying that it never happened, only that it did not seem to be a common occurrence. Although I met Europeans and North Americans who were living in Guatemala City, I saw none in Totonicapan other than a few Catholic priests.
In short, the parallel you draw between Guatemala and Israel seems tenuous at best.
Did you visit Lake Atitlan? I sat on its shores one afternoon as a priest explained it all to me. I also spent a lot of time visiting mountainous Indian villages - where I saw no foreigners - and a factory town ( one of the -tenangos) where I couldn't help contrasting the downtrodden appearance of the Indians with what I'd observed in the mountains.
a) you win the lottery
b) you are selected to compete on American Idol
c) your possessions are sold off in lieu of payment
Under the Ottomans it was
a) the same
b) different in that you were forced to convert to Judaism
c) different in that you received 26 virgins to practice on
Well, you are right. This conversation has just descended into the inane. Sorry to have wasted your time.
2. The Ottomans settled Bosnian Muslims expatriates in Palestine after Austro-Hungary captured Bosnia. Likewise, they settled Circassians and Tatars there who were refugees from Russia. I feel for these people, but they have no historical ties as settlers. The Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi Jews who came to Palestine do.
Do you want to compare post WWII migrations of Americans to different states to Mexican immigration to this country?
Why would I?
Few Mexicans lived in territories acquired by the US. The native peoples were not Mexican anyway.
Gee, how about returning the Pacific Southwest to Mexico? That would still leave us with 3/4ths of our country.
Non sequitor. See above.
I focused on the Pre WWI period in my response...and it actually began around the time of the first aliyah, just after Mark Twain's visit.
During the war immigration came to a halt, obviously.
I don't know what happened during the inter-war period 1920-1940...except that Jewish immigration was severely curtailed by the British.
Arab subjects of the Ottoman Empire, which ended in 1919, came to take advantage of new infrastructure and development, most of which was built by the Zionists
That's right...but it doesn't change the realities that they were citizens of the Empire and the Zionists were not. Doesn't change the realities that they were Arab-speaking Muslims and the Zionists were not.
These people have no historical ties. They are opportunists, who later participated in attempts to steal land from (dead) Jews.
You couldn't be more wrong. Some may not have had specific ties to Palestine but all had very strong ties to their culture and way of life. So Zhabotinsky said in 1923 and I value his opinion far, far more than I do yours. He was there, after all, his credentials are much, much better than yours, and history has shown him to have been correct.
The Ottomans settled Bosnian Muslims expatriates in Palestine after Austro-Hungary captured Bosnia. Likewise, they settled Circassians and Tatars there who were refugees from Russia
Yeah? So where are they? If they were settled in numbers where are their descendants? I never hear of them.
I feel for these people, but they have no historical ties as settlers. The Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi Jews who came to Palestine do.
Arabs certainly do. Arabs who have been inhabitants of the land for generations, Arabs who had been there for only 50 or 60 years, Arabs who had never been there. All of them do. The Bosnians and Circassians also if they were refugees from other places. You're just flat-out wrong. Think about how first or second generation Americans feel about this country.
I'm pro-Israel and pro-greater Israel but, quite frankly, people with your opinions embarrass me.
Few Mexicans lived in territories acquired by the US. The native peoples were not Mexican anyway.
Even fewer Americans lived in those territories before acquisition and we had even less connection to the aboriginal inhabitants.
But that wasn't my point.
Migration of citizens of the Ottoman empire, or of citizens of any country, is very different from immigration of non-citizens...even if those non-citizens had some tenuous connection to peoples who had lived in the land 2000 years prior.
Non sequitor. See above
Nope. Again you fail to understand. People of any country are loath to relinquish title to any part of it for any reason. It's not that we wouldn't want to return the Pacific Southwest to Mexicans. We wouldn't return it to descendents of the original inhabitants. Not willingly.
ping
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