Posted on 10/18/2007 2:08:41 PM PDT by Signalman
Not true.
From "The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles":
"As we commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ two millennia ago, we offer our testimony of the reality of His matchless life and the infinite virtue of His great atoning sacrifice. None other has had so profound an influence upon all who have lived and will yet live upon the earth.
"He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New. Under the direction of His Father, He was the creator of the earth. 'All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made' (John 1:3).
From Ezra Taft Benson (former president of the church):
He lives today! Of that I bear solemn witness. This same Jesus has already come to earth in our day. The resurrected Christ—glorified, exalted, the God of this world under the Father—appeared to the boy Joseph Smith, Jr., in 1820. This same Jesus, who was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of Moses, the Creator of this earth, has come in our day. He was introduced by our Heavenly Father to Joseph Smith with these words: “This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!”
From Bruce R. McKonkie (Apostle):
Jesus, See -->CHRIST, -->JESUS OF NAZARETH.
Taken from the Hebrew Yeshua, Jesus is a masculine personal name meaning Jehovah is salvation or deliverance; and accordingly, with supreme propriety, it was chosen and revealed as the personal name of our Lord. (Luke 1:31.) This name — also found as Jeshua, Joshua, and Jehoshua — apparently was a common one among the ancient Jews. Variants of the name include Hosea, Hoshea, and Oshea — all meaning deliverance.
Though it was a common name anciently, its use by the Lord God Omnipotent as his personal name has given it a sacred connotation for all succeeding generations. (Acts 2:36.) Accordingly its profane and repetitious use is not in keeping with the true spirit of reverence and worship.
Also from Bruce R. McKonkie:
And now, as pertaining to this perfect atonement, wrought by the shedding of the blood of God—I testify that it took place in Gethsemane and at Golgotha, and as pertaining to Jesus Christ, I testify that he is the Son of the Living God and was crucified for the sins of the world. He is our Lord, our God, and our King. This I know of myself independent of any other person.
I am one of his witnesses, and in a coming day I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and in his feet and shall wet his feet with my tears.
But I shall not know any better then than I know now that he is God’s Almighty Son, that he is our Savior and Redeemer, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning blood and in no other way.
A quick search on the LDS.org website would have revealed this and much more information regarding our views on Jesus. If you're going to criticize, at least have a basic idea of what we actually believe.
If you’re going to criticize, at least have a basic idea of what we actually believe.
***I was meeting with mormons 30 years ago. They drew the line at the divinity of Christ. Same thing happened 20 years ago, 10 years ago, and 2 years ago when some missionaries came to my door. I have no desire to go to the LDS website.
This is an important topic. I’m inclined to open a vanity thread on it, but, I have stayed away from religious threads for a decade. And this topic has all the potential to spiral down into a religious thread. I see it blasted all over evangelical christendom that mormonism is a cult.
So how do we resolve this? What is the accepted common ground from both sides of this debate? For instance, I cannot accept anything developed from the book of mormon, because it does not have archaeological support.
Here are a few hits from the church I go to, and one hit that included Stedman & seemed suitable as a place to start.
http://www.basicchristian.net/downloads/BasicChristian.pdf
http://www.pbc.org/library/files/html/WAEF_06.html
Then there was Rose, a lovely young woman of Mormon back-ground, even related to some branch of the Brigham Young family. She found the joy and liberty of knowing Christ, and as a young Christian a few months old in the faith stood up against the local Mormon bishop with the testimony of a new life in Christ, standing on the Word of God. She confuted his attack so well that he got mad and said, “Stop quoting the Bible to me. That’s a dead book”’ She was ultimately accorded the honor of suffering for Christ’s sake by being excommunicated from the Mormon church. All this she experienced as a young believer-—and facing the hurt of not being understood by family and friends.
http://www.pbc.org/library/files/html/0171.html
How different the Bible is, for instance, from the Book of Mormon. Here is another book that claims to be history. It claims to record historical evidence of a pre-American race that once lived on these continents. But every archaeological excavation in the Americas denies flatly the Book of Mormon. If you walk through these lands you can see that the civilizations that are being dug up by the archaeologists’ spade are completely and entirely different from that recorded in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon mentions, for instance, the existence of cattle, sheep, camels, horses, and elephants, yet every archaeological excavation confirms the fact that not one of these animals were known on the American continent in the days of the Mayan, Incan and Aztec empires.
The Book of Mormon speaks of wars that were fought with metal weapons of brass, iron and steel. but not one of these metals were employed as weapons of war in the Americas. The Book of Mormon speaks of chariots with wheels but they didn’t even know the use of the wheel in the American continent except for toys for children, but they had no wheeled carriages and no wheeled vehicles of any kind. Everywhere you look there is a denial, from the evidence of the earth itself of these strange and spurious claims of the Book of Mormon.
http://www.pbc.org/library/files/html/3775.html
Another widespread myth in our day, one that is winning increasing status on every side, is the doctrines of Mormonism. Mormonism is based upon foolish myths about early American history that do not have a semblance, a shred of evidence from archaeology, to support them. Archaeologists have tried to find any evidence whatsoever for the strange story the Book of Mormon tells, about an early American civilization that flourished here before Columbus came. They can find nothing that confirms it in any degree. Instead, everything they find is absolutely contrary to the picture drawn in the Book of Mormon. But how many believe this nonsense, and how widely it is being accepted and even gaining a position of prominence among us! I am not talking about Mormons. Many of them are wonderful, dear people. Merely because people are lost is no sign they are worthless. Mormons are often marvelous people, but their teachings are in error. We ought to understand that and not give ourselves to godless and silly myths.
Yep. A good place to learn about the LDS faith. :-)
I am opposed to Quakerism, Catholism, Baptists, Judism, Evangelism. And, yet, I have voted for people from all of these religions because I believed they were good choices for our country.
Romney told gays he would be a stronger supporter of their agenda than Ted Kennedy.
Romney handed out pink fliers at a gay pride festival supporting their agenda.
Romney stated he supported the military’s “don’t ask don’t tell” policy as a stepping stone to gays serving openly in the military.
Romney did nothing to support a marriage amendment.
There is, of course, much more. That is why the gays are attacking him. He was one of their strongest supporters and has now flip flopped and campaigns as if he never was.”
____________________________
Nope, I don’t trust him.
Nope, he’d change his spots within weeks of inaugeration.
Nope, not going to vote for him.
A little something to help you out on that score:
Newly Found Altars from Nahom
Of course, I wouldn't recommend archaeological evidence as a guide as to the authenticity of the Bible or the Book of Mormon, but rather a witness from God.
Kevmo, you have asked how we can resolve this. You might start by acknowledging that you were in error about your claim about Romney that “He seems to have trouble with the Deity of Christ”. I have seen no factual support for that assertion. Earlier I posted the excerpt from the title page to the Book of Mormon stating that its purpose is “to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God”. The Book of Mormon was first published in 1830 and is binding and authoritative scripture for a believing Latter-day Saint. Its pages are filled with references to the deity of Christ. As a Mormon missionary, and later a lay leader within the Mormon Church, Mitt Romney would have spent serious time studying the Book of Mormon’s doctrinal teachings on the deity of Christ—and he would have personally taught those doctrines. It is inconceivable that he would “have trouble with the Deity of Christ”. Please enlighten us if you have evidence otherwise.
But I am not interested in learning about the LDS faith. I have seen enough of it to conclude that it is a cult.
There are valid/biblical reasons why Evangelicals should not vote for Mr. Romney. First and foremost, Mormonism is not Christianity, it is a cult. The Leader/President of the Mormon Church himself has recently admitted that Mormonism does not worship the Christ of Christianity.
1) Mr. Romney is a prominent member of a religious cult that believes that “the Bible is full of errors”, that the ludicrous Book of Mormon has supplanted the Bible and is “god’s” latest revelation to mankind, that their so-called leader/president speaks new/divine revelation from “god”, that Jesus Christ is Satan’s brother, that “god” was once a man and that men, by following the doctrines and dictates of Mormonism can become “gods” ruling over their own planets, propagating these new worlds with so-called "spirit children" thourough out eternity by having sex with the wives they have married here on earth. Holy underwear, that Jesus Christ came to America, that the Indians were Jews, that "god" has a physical body and the virgin birth was the direct result of “god” having sex with Mary. Anyone who believes this space-cadet theology shows a lack of discernment at the core of their being. I do not care how many Olympics this guy has “saved” and run well, or experience he has had as governor.
It is also vitally important to note that in order to obtain the high position Mr. Romney currently holds within the cult he has had to take an oath to the “church”; swearing his allegiance to Mormonism and it’s leadership and to doing everything within his power to establish the Mormon "kingdom of god" upon the earth. Mr. Romney also believes he is going to become the god of his own world! This fact alone disqualifies him from holding the office of President of the United States because his allegiance AND motives lies elsewhere.
Recently, Mormonism has sought legitimacy by claiming to be “Christian”, and following the Jesus of the Bible, but this is a very recent phenomena in it's history. Fortunately, it’s current president/leader has admitted that Mormons do not in point of fact follow the traditional Christ of the Bible, or of biblical Christianity:
The current president of the Mormon Church, Gordon B. Hinckley, made a very telling comment about Jesus Christ in a talk in Geneva, Switzerland, June 6, 1998. The Deseret News reported:
In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints "do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times.
He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages." (Deseret News, Church News section, Salt Lake City, Utah, week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7)
President. Hinckley, the leader of Mormonism, was being totally honest and told the truth; Mormons do not worship the traditional Jesus Christ who is described in the Bible, the Holy Word of God. They worship a false christ as proclaimed and taught by Joseph Smith, who, according to Hinckley “knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages"... if you believe that, there is a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell you.
It should be noted that, from its inception Mormonism has been deemed a cult and NEVER been recognized as being a part of “Christianity or Christendom because it’s core doctrines are in total opposition to the Word of God, the doctrine of salvation, the Christ of the Bible, and the Christ of Christianity.
There are also valid political reasons for not voting for Mr. Romney.
2) Mr. Romney has flip flopped on abortion, homosexuality and a number of other issues while in his position of leadership as governor of MA. He had the opportunity to take a stand and he bent which ever way the political wind blew.
3) During the gas crunch/crises that took place while he was governor of MA. Mr. Romney had the opportunity to provide some relief for the struggling people of MA by rolling back or eliminating the exceptionally high MA gas tax during the period covering the gas crisis. People throughout the state were hurting. People in the state begged him to do this but he staunchly refused… so much for his commitment to “cutting taxes”.
Yes he is “handsome” and telegenic, and "moral" as men count morals but people here in NH know him, what he believes and how he governs and frankly, many of us do not want him to become the leader of the free world and can not/will not vote for him.
While we are not voting for Sunday School teacher, we are voting for the person who will lead the greatest country on the face of the earth and evangelicals should not be voting for someone who has sweorn his allegiance to Mormonism and it’s leadership and to doing everything within his power to establish the Mormon "kingdom of god" upon the earth. Or someone who also believes he is going to become the god of his own world!
I, along with others who have mentioned these facts concerning Mormonism are telling the truth about the CULT in order to educate the public at large. Whether people wish to acknowledge it or not, the fact of the matter is this: what one believes and follows has a direct bearing and impact upon how they live their lives and how they view the world and their place in it and in the case of politicians, …how they govern (The "president" of Iran is a good example of the reality behind this principle). Therefore, stating what Mormonism teaches, believes and practices is not “Mormon bashing", it is presenting reality. The facts stated above about the cult which Mr. Romney is so actively involved in are readily available and easily verified by anyone and everyone who is willing to take the time to do some simple apologetics research with an open mind, taking Mormonism at face value, examining it's founders, leaders, doctrines, beliefs and practices in light of history, the Word of God and the founder (The Lord Jesus Christ), leaders, doctrine and beliefs of biblical Christianity and "the faith once and for all delivered to the saints."
With that approach, Lieberman should be eliminated from political leadership,
***He’s a democrat, so I would have no trouble with that.
and Jefferson should never have been president. Jefferson was a deist, that is, among other things, he believed in the principles Christ taught, but didn’t believe in the divinity of Christ.
***Assuming what you say is correct, then I probably would have had the same trouble with Jefferson at the time.
It is wonder the Republic survived him.
***He was one of the strangest presidents, who seemed to be at his best when he violated his own standards. But, we’re not talking about Jefferson, we’re talking about Mitt, who believes in a cult religion and that is enough to knock him out of consideration for me during the primaries.
I did not click on the link.
When you say you “wouldn’t recommend archaeological evidence as a guide as to the authenticity of the Bible
or the Book of Mormon, but rather a witness from God”, I see it differently. The archaeological evidence supporting the new testament documents is quite strong. If it weren’t, I would never have accepted the historicity of Christ. The fact that the archaeological evidence for mormon assertions is weak is strong evidence to me that it is not worth pursuing.
Kevmo, you have asked how we can resolve this. You might start by acknowledging that you were in error about your claim about Romney that “He seems to have trouble with the Deity of Christ”.
***I would be glad to post that acknowledgement if it turns out to be incorrect. What I am seeking to resolve is how we can determine whether or not the LDS teaching acknowledges that Jesus Christ was Jehovah God. If Mitt can honestly admit that’s true, I have very much less of a problem with him. My experience in dealing with the mormon church and mormons is that there is a true departure from orthodoxy on this point. How can we resolve whether this is the case? What would you accept as evidence? I’m not going to go spinning my wheels only to have you say, “well, that’s how you see it”. That’s one reason why archaeological evidence is compelling to me, because we can go and look at it and read the inscriptions by ourselves, today.
I have seen no factual support for that assertion.
***I think you are trying to resolve something else, so you’re looking for factual support of something that amounts to a side issue.
Earlier I posted the excerpt from the title page to the Book of Mormon stating that its purpose is “to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God”.
***Glad to hear it. Is Jesus Jehovah?
The Book of Mormon was first published in 1830 and is binding and authoritative scripture for a believing Latter-day Saint. Its pages are filled with references to the deity of Christ.
***And it is not authoritative to mainstream christianity, so we’ll need to stick to biblical evidence in order to establish any facts.
As a Mormon missionary, and later a lay leader within the Mormon Church, Mitt Romney would have spent serious time studying the Book of Mormon’s doctrinal teachings on the deity of Christ—and he would have personally taught those doctrines.
***AND he’s a real smart guy who went to Harvard. So he’s basically smarter than me, and he should be able to see through cult teachings better than someone as pedestrian as I am.
It is inconceivable that he would “have trouble with the Deity of Christ”. Please enlighten us if you have evidence otherwise.
***As you state, Mitt buys into the mormon religion, so the issue is whether the doctrines taught by mormonism are orthodox. I’m not all that interested in all the differences between mormonism and mainstream christianity because that subject is too large for me to tackle. My interest is in Who Jesus Is, Who He claimed to be, why he was put to death, and what that means to me, us, and anyone looking at a presidential candidate.
Yes, Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus was and is the Jehovah of the Old Testament. There are countless references in authoritative teachings and sermons. Gordon B. Hinckley is the current President of the Church and is viewed by believing Latter-day Saints to be a prophetic leader. Here is a clear and unequivocal excerpt from his teachings on this subject: “Jesus is the Christ, the great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the promised Messiah of the New Testament, our King, our Lord, our Savior, our Redeemer who gave His life for each of us.” This quote is found on page 72 of the July 1999 issue of the “Ensign” (the official Church magazine for adults).
As a committed and practicing Latter-day Saint, Mitt Romney would accept and teach this doctrine. It is a central and foundational teaching of the Mormon Church. For Mitt, and all other believing Latter-day Saints, Jesus is Jehovah. Are you now ready to reconsider your claim that Mitt “seems to have trouble with the Deity of Christ”?
I have shared the link for others who may wish to learn first hand, what Mormons believe.
This is fascinating, and I have to say that I’ve proceeded further in this discussion than I ever have with any other mormon, ever.
I suppose it would take a while to shake me of my conclusion that the mormon church is a cult. In my experience, the best dividing line has been what we’ve been discussing, the deity of Christ. JW’s will not go to that point, and no other mormon has gone so far as you have in my discussions, so I’m still wary. Perhaps the deity of Christ is no longer a good litmus test.
The following is a place where I might as well start. I can’t find my copy of “Kingdom of the Cults” and I’m a bit rusty on my apologetics, but this will do. Please have a look and just let me know where this author goes demonstrably off into the weeds.
What the Cults believe
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/home/kreitz/Christian/Cults/all.html#SECTION00030000000000000000
The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints, whose members have been nicknamed Mormons claims to be the restoration of the true church established by Jesus Christ. It has no relation with the Catholic or Protestant Churches but differs from them in theology, organization, and religious practices. In its numerous publication it emphasizes that the Christian Church established by Jesus Christ has become corrupt over the century and needed to be re-established again. Because of this, there is no salvation outside the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints.
These are strong claims, but they carry some truth. The Christian Churches have always be in danger of being corrupted. Some, like the Catholic Church, have fallen pretty badly during the middle age and were never restored. The reformation in the 1500’s started new churches which were theologically correct again, but today they suffer from a serious lack of commitment. Even many Baptist Churches do not preach the whole word of God anymore.
But is the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints in fact a restoration of the true church of Jesus Christ? Let’s have a look at what they believe.
We believe the Bible to be the word of God
We believe in God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost
We believe that Jesus Christ is the eternal Jehova, the promised Messiah, Redeemer and Savior, the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
We believe that through the atonement of Christ all mankind may be saved
These are original citations from the Articles of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints. That sounds pretty much like what we believe, doesn’t it? So - why do we say that Mormonism is a cult? Where are the differences?
Well, the differences show up when you dive deeper into Mormon theology and find out that the above articles of faith have a different meaning for them that for us. The bible is not the only source of authority they accept, their interpretation of the word ``God’’ is quite different from ours and the same holds for the words ``redemption’’ and ``salvation’’. To understand what the Mormons believe we need to know a little bit about the early history of Mormonism.
History
The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints was founded by its first prophet Joseph Smith in 1830 in Fayette, New York - no further that 40 miles from here. According to his own reports he had his first heavenly vision in 1820 which were followed by numerous visitations by a ``resurrected person’’ named Moroni. in 1827 Moroni delivered to Smith the ``golden plates’’, whose translation is now the Book of Mormon. In May 1829 John the Baptist appeared and ordained Smith to the Aaronic Priesthood. Shortly after that Peter, James, and John came to ordain him to the Melchizedek Priesthood. This established the authority of the church, because without the Melchizedek Priesthood there could be not salvation for men on earth.
It is difficult to understand how Smith found his first followers, but the Finger Lakes Region has always been an easy prey for new religions and probably still is. As far as I know, Mormonism wasn’t the only cult that started here. But because of its great emphasis on missions, the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints has now grown into a church that has more than 3 million members, most of them in the state of Utah, and sends out as many as 14,000 missionaries. A few organizations separated from the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints when Brigham Young took the Mormons to Utah, but compared to main church they are rather insignificant.
Major Doctrines - where are the differences?
Many bad things have been said about the Mormons, most of them being not true. In fact, as far as commitment and moral standards are concerend, the accomplishments of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints are astonishing and probably far beyond what Baptist Churches have achieved with their own members. In that respect, we can only learn from them.
But what about their beliefs? The claims of Joseph Smith about his visions may seem a little strange - but that alone doesn’t mean that Mormonism is a cult. So, is the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints really a Church of Jesus Christ or not? Let’s look at our measuring rod - our own articles of faith - and compare.
Sources of Authority - anything but the Bible?
Let me give a more complete citation from the Mormon’s articles of faith
We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and that he will reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God
So while the Mormons believe that the Bible is the word of God, it is only one of the many possible sources of authority. They strongly emphasize that the Bible is not complete and that there will always be additions to the current canon. It is taught, for instance, that Jesus repealed the law of Moses in the sermon on the mount Matthew 5:21-48 although he explicitly says in Matthew 5:17 that he will not change it.
The Mormons rely on the King James Version of the Bible, but the restriction ``as far as it is translated correctly’’ suggests errors in the translation which make corrections by subsequent revelations and prophesies necessary.
The book of Mormon is considered to be an equally inspired record of the ancient people who inhabited the American continent before and after the time of Christ. The book tells the epic story of two waves of immigration, the first after the destruction of the tower of Babel with no survivors after a deadly battle 1500 years later, and the second about 600 B.C. under Levi from the trive of Manasseh. Two nations, the Nephite and the Lamanite, came out of this. The Nephites were well advanced in civilization and became Christians after the resurrected Christ came to the Americas to organize his church. The Lamanites fell under the curse, became dark in skin, and degenerated. In a final struggle 1000 years later the Nephites were eliminated. Their last survivor, Moroni, completed the book of Mormon on Golden Plates and hid them until he reappeared to give them to Joseph Smith. The surviving ``degenerated nation’’ is identified with the American Indians.
In contrast to the Bible, which is confirmed by thousands of historical evidences, the book of Mormon must be viewed as purely fictional. There is no external evidence for any of its claims. It also overemphasizes the role of America as ``blessed land of God’’ and attempts to give it a ``godly justification’’ for the prevalent racism of the 1800’s.
So altogether the Mormons know three sources of authority - the Bible, as long as it fits (``is translated correctly’’) - the Book of Mormon - and revelations to their prophets. The role of the Bible is inferior for them and it is by no means the final authority anymore. Apart from using a similar terminology the Mormons have little in common with true Christianity.
God
We believe in God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost
At a first glance Mormons seem to have the same concept of God as we have. But Mormon theorogy clearly teaches that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate Gods ``composing the great presiding council of the universe’’. They deny the doctrine of the trinity, because they view the blending of personalities as unnatural and impossible.
If something cannot be explained in human terms, it cannot be true. This argument, which seems to dominate the Mormon theology, leads to a belief system that appears to have a very limited view of God and consequently relies on complicated and often somewhat strange concepts.
Mormons believe in an eternal progression. God has once been as we are and is just much further ahead of us. In fact, every man can eventually become a God if he is faithful enough. Adam, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob have already entered the state of exaltation and become Gods.
Mormon theology denies the possibility of immaterial bodies and thus believe that God must have a body of flesh and bones - a direct contradiction to John 4:24 or 1. Timothy 1:17 and even their own teaching about the Holy Spirit.
Because of God being a material, Mormons have to re-interpret the meaning of omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence — doctrines that they seem to share with orthodox Christianity. For them, God can only have a limited extension in space, but his senses and powers are infinite. So he can transfer himself to any place and is thus omnipresence. He is omniscient, and omnipotent only because of the support of angels and ministering servants.
It is also taught that the Gods have wives in heaven and through them, God is literally our father. We see a progression of Gods evolving from the human spirits who have once been fathered by some other Gods and now themselves create new human spirits. Mormonism calls this doctrine ``celestial parentage’’.
So, a closer look reveals that the concept of God taught by Mormonism is quite different from the God of the Bible.
Man
The Mormon doctrine of man is very different from that of orthodox Christianity and is the key to an understanding of all the other doctrines. According to Mormonism, all life begins at the time of spirit creation. However, for a Mormon creation does not mean that God brought man into being, but only that he organized the elements which are co-eternal with him and thus turned them into spirit children.
Man’s advance in the scheme of Eternal Progression involves at least four stages: (1) a premortal or spirit existence, (2) mortal life on earth with spirit and body temporarily joined, (3) the spirit world for the disembodied spirits after death, and (4) immortality after the resurrection with spirit and body inseparably connected.
Already in the premortal stage the spirit children have the freedom to choose good or evil. Their choices determine to a degree their later stage. Satan and one third rebelled at this stage and were excluded from eternal progression but became sons of perdition (we’ll come back to that when we discuss the things to come). The rest stood with Christ, but some were less ``valiant’’ and therefore had to live an inferior life as humans. This is the explanation for the ``millions of insane and afflicted people on earth and those living in filth, poverty, and degradation’’. For the Mormons until 1978, black skin was one of the signs of this degradation and for this reason Black People were denied any spiritual rank.
This is a pretty unbiblical view of humans. The bible nowhere teaches that sickness and poverty are the result of one individual’s sin, nor does it tell us that people with a different skin color are to be viewed as spiritually inferior.
But Mormonism also has quite a different understanding of the fall of mankind. For them, Adam was the archangel Michael in his premortal state. Together with one of his preincarnate wives (note the ``one of’’), Eve, he was placed in the Garden of Eden, which the Mormons of course locate in America (Jackson County, MO). Both had immortal bodies but Eve sinned and became mortal. This created a dilemma for Adam, because he had to follow two conflicting commands: to multiply and replenish the earth and not to eat from the tree. He deliberately and wisely chose to stand by the first and greater command and took of the fruit. So he fell that men may be.
Mormonism thus completely denies the original sin. What God has declared sinful is now declared as one of the great advances toward eternal exaltation, because it opened the door for billions of pre-existing spirits to become mortal and further proceed in the scheme of eternal progression. For the Mormon, Adam did not sin at all: only Eve did, while the man - apparently viewed as ethically superior to women - had a good excuse for his transgression.
Consequently we don’t inherit sinfulness from Adam and Eve but are innocent until we reach the age of accountability, which Mormons determine to be eight. Again, this is not what the Bible teaches. Although I am not quite sure what will happen to children who die before they can distinguish good and evil, the Bible clearly says that the heart of man is evil from childhood - there is no innocent stage.
Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is the eternal Jehova, the promised Messiah, Redeemer and Savior, the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Although this statement seems to be in keeping with Bible teaching, the Mormon’s beliefs about Jesus Christ differ a lot from that of orthodox Christianity.
Mormons make a distinction between Elohim, the exalted name reserved for the father, and Jehova, which they see as Jesus Christ. To them Jesus Christ is the first-born of all the spirit children of God, a term that includes angels, demons, and human beings. The difference between Christ and them is not one of kind but only of position. Any thought of Christ’s distinctive deity is rejected. In fact, it is said that by obedience and devotion to the truth he earned the rank as God while yet in his pre-existing state. He was already God before he became mortal, but this is the only distinction from normal humans who can attain godhood only after their mortal life.
As first-born child of Elohim, he was the executive of the Father in the creation, being aided in his work by angels and many humans.
His earthly life began with the virgin birth of Mary, which assures his unique status. But Mormons emphasize that Elohim is literally the father of both the spirit and the human body of Christ. Mormon’s agree with orthodox Christianity that Christ was the only person to live a sinless life, that he died on the cross for the redemption of mankind, and arose in the body on the third day. But in addition to his appearances recorded in the Bible the book of Mormon also claims that he came to the Americas as resurrected being and organized his church among the Nephite people.
The Holy Spirit
For the Mormon, the Holy Spirit is an entirely spiritual person without flesh and bones and thus different in nature from the father and the son. He emanates from the deity and is everywhere present, although only in one place at a time.
This again is superficially identical with what the bible says, but contradicts both the Mormon teaching about persons and the biblical teaching that father, son, and spirit are the same in every divine aspect.
Salvation
We believe that through the atonement of Christ all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
Again, Mormonism uses a formulation of an article of faith that is very close to orthodox Christianity. But as before, the Mormon understanding of the atonement is different from ours. For Mormons, there are two aspects of salvation.
1.
The first aspect is the unconditional salvation for all of mankind. Weakness, desease, and death came upon all men because of the transgression of Adam. Through the atonement of Christ physical resurrection - or immortality - is guaranteed for all living beings. This kind of salvation doesn’t require faith in Christ but includes everyone. The only exception are the sons of perdition.
2.
The second aspect is conditional salvation. It determines the course of eternal progression for the individual soul and depends entirely on obedience, works, and choices made during the mortal life.
While all men become immortal, only the faithful and obedient are allowed to enter the highest sphere of existence in eternity. Faith alone is not sufficient for such an ``exaltation’’. The celestial kingdom can only be entered through obedience to the laws and ordinances, devotion, and faithfulness. In other words, individual salvation is by works, not by faith.
Faith in Jesus Christ thus does not play an important role in the Mormon doctrine of salvation. It is not necessary to escape eternal punishment and it does not help to enter the exalted eternal life. The biblical understanding of salvation is quite different from that. You cannot escape eternal punishment if you don’t turn to Christ and your right to enter the heavenly kingdom does not depend on works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Salvation is based on faith in Jesus Christ alone.
Mormonism also puts a very strong emphasis on baptism. Without baptism, your sins cannot be forgiven and you cannot enter the celestial kingdom. To redeem those who believed but died without being baptized properly, Mormons practice baptisms for the dead and keep meticulous records about the life of millions of people. Again, it must be said that although baptism is an important act of obedience, the Bible nowhere teaches that it is necessary for salvation.
Things to come
The Mormon doctrines about the last things use similar elements as we know from the Bible but differ severly from orthodox Christianity. It would lead too far to discuss them in detail so I will focus on a few important aspects.
The book of Mormon teaches that Israel will literally gather, which today is interpreted as joining the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints, and that Zion will be built in the American continent. Afterwards Christ will return, and those who made it into the celestial kingdom will be resurrected to meet him in the air, to reign together with him. The other believers will be resurrected next and live on earth during the millenial reign. The wicked will be destroyed and sent into a ``the prison house’’ for cleansing. Satan will be bound during the 1000 years. The second resurrection will then separate those destined for eternity from the sons of perdition.
There will be three eternal kingdoms of widely differing glories and one place for the sons of perdition.
The sphere of exaltation in the celestial kingdom
is reserved for the faithful and obedient. They will be gods and shall dwell in the presence of God, the father, and His Christ forever.
The terrestrial kingdom
is for the lukewarm believers and those who accepted the gospel only while in the spirit world, that is after death. They remain without exaltation and receive the presence of the Son but not of the father.
The lowest sphere in the celestial world
is reserved for the rest who rejected Christ (or the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints) and lived wickedly. They will never experience the presence of God or of Christ, but shall live eternally as servants of God.
Perdition
is for those who have no hope of any degree of salvation, that is Satan and the angels who rebelled with him,and all men who committed the impardonable sin. They are doomed to everlasting fire.
However, eternal punishment is not really eternal, because God has the power to pardon them after an appropriate time. So, in the end, nobody will stay in the state of punishment forever.
So we see that the Mormon doctrine of the last things is filled with phantasies that integrate biblical concepts but have little to do with the word of God. The terminology is often the same as in orthodox Christianity but - as we have seen over and over again - Mormonism twists the meaning of this terminology so much, that their doctrines have nothing in common with true Christianity.
Special Aspects
Besides their religious beliefs certain Mormon practices deserve a brief discussion.
Polygamy:
was established as a result of a direct revelation to Joseph Smith, which emphasized the eternity of the marriage covenant and the plurality of wives. Mormons believed that the Gods had multiple wives and felt that they were divinely commanded to do the same. However, all marriages had to be duly established and gave a lot of responsibilities to the man who wanted to lead such a large family. Polygamy became a controversial issue later and the practice was discontinued in 1890 in order to remove obstacles that kept Utah from joining the United States. Polygamy is a severe misuse of the word of God. The fact that God permitted polygamy in ancient times does not mean that he sanctified it. In a time where many men were killed in wars and women could not survive alone except by prostitution this was the lesser evil, but by no means good.
Racism:
The book of Mormon and its interpretation in Mormon doctrines clearly identifies Black and Native Americans as spiritually inferior beings, which is in strong contradiction to the word of God. It appears that the Mormon doctrines tried to give a ``godly justification’’ for the racism and sexism that was so common in the time of Joseph Smith and his followers. The Bible, however, nowhere teaches that certain people are superior to others just because of their race, skin color, sex, or other physical differences.
Also, please address what Jmouse brings up in post #51
1) Mr. Romney is a prominent member of a religious cult that believes that “the Bible is full of errors”, that the ludicrous Book of Mormon has supplanted the Bible and is “god’s” latest revelation to mankind, that their so-called leader/president speaks new/divine revelation from “god”, that Jesus Christ is Satan’s brother, that “god” was once a man and that men, by following the doctrines and dictates of Mormonism can become “gods” ruling over their own planets, propagating these new worlds with so-called “spirit children” thourough out eternity by having sex with the wives they have married here on earth. Holy underwear, that Jesus Christ came to America, that the Indians were Jews, that “god” has a physical body and the virgin birth was the direct result of “god” having sex with Mary. Anyone who believes this space-cadet theology shows a lack of discernment at the core of their being. I do not care how many Olympics this guy has “saved” and run well, or experience he has had as governor.
It is also vitally important to note that in order to obtain the high position Mr. Romney currently holds within the cult he has had to take an oath to the “church”; swearing his allegiance to Mormonism and it’s leadership and to doing everything within his power to establish the Mormon “kingdom of god” upon the earth. Mr. Romney also believes he is going to become the god of his own world! This fact alone disqualifies him from holding the office of President of the United States because his allegiance AND motives lies elsewhere.
It still doesn’t help Mitt Romney to have him miss both the Values Voter Debate and then the next debate after for minority voters. Also, how is Mitt Romney truly supposed to be seen as a real conservative on all of the issues and not seen as a fake conservative on all of the issues and who will truly become a leftist President while in office? Also, how is Mitt Romney truly supposed to successfully get enough votes from all of the Bible Belt states when many conservatives will always refuse to vote for a Mormon for POTUS?
Kevmo, this is so much garbage. It is garbage for two reasons:
First it is garbage, because it has so many errors and distortions in it, one doesn’t know where to begin to put it right. And why should one bother. I am inclined to say go your ignorant, bigoted, self-righteous way.
Second, It is garbage because it is so out of place. The FR list is trying to discuss the coming election and is not the place for you to air your bigotry.
On this list I have read that Mormons claim that God thinks the Creeds are an abomination to him. I agree with that notion, because they lead to nonsense like this. Creeds may be good to help individuals clarify what they believe. However, when they become a platform for attacking others or denying others their rights, I too say they are an abomination. When they become the basis for hating and smearing others, I say they are an abomination.
Again I say that you seem to miss what America and the Constitution is all about. Do you not know there is no religious test for the presidency. Do you understand why???Think hard, and it may come to you.
I suggest you find another platform for spreading this garbage.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.