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How Evolutionists Misunderstand Entropy
Creation Matters ^ | Timothy R. Stout

Posted on 11/20/2009 6:40:11 PM PST by GodGunsGuts

It has always amazed me how unconcerned evolutionists seem to be about entropy and the problems it poses both for a natural origin of life and for macroevolution. The argument from entropy is one of the most powerful arguments against the spontaneous formation of life from a random association of non-living chemicals...

(Excerpt) Read more at creationresearch.org ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; US: Missouri
KEYWORDS: abiogenesis; baptist; catholic; christian; christianity; christianright; creation; evangelical; evolution; godsgravesglyphs; intelligentdesign; judaism; originoflife; protestant; religiousright; science
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1 posted on 11/20/2009 6:40:12 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: metmom; DaveLoneRanger; editor-surveyor; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; MrB; GourmetDan; Fichori; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 11/20/2009 6:41:23 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

How is a 2008 article “News”? How is entropy applicable to a non-closed system?


3 posted on 11/20/2009 6:45:36 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: GodGunsGuts

That was written by someone who understands what the word “entropy” means, but not how it works.


4 posted on 11/20/2009 6:49:01 PM PST by Psycho_Bunny (ALSO SPRACH ZEROTHUSTRA)
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To: GodGunsGuts

wow this is old...


5 posted on 11/20/2009 6:49:56 PM PST by miliantnutcase
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To: Natural Law
How is entropy applicable to a non-closed system?

Slam. Dunk.

6 posted on 11/20/2009 6:51:34 PM PST by Talisker (When you find a turtle on top of a fence post, you can be damn sure it didn't get there on it's own.)
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To: Natural Law

How is entropy applicable to a non-closed system?


Isn’t that the point? Our system is not closed. It is open to God’s influence and therefore life can be created?


7 posted on 11/20/2009 6:52:05 PM PST by broncobilly
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To: GodGunsGuts

Same as they misunderstand everything. Reality refutes evolution, so it has to be re-understood.


8 posted on 11/20/2009 6:56:47 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bomb-a administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: Natural Law
You should understand that when you have an equation that REQUIRES a factor of "(Then a miracle happens...)", you start to have a compulsion to play with verbal gymnastics, and careful selection of truths...

Galileo, Copericus and Kepler had the same problems. If you would like to see another example of this kind of "logic", go over to Digg.com and read the gibberings of the Global Warming Ardents over the E-mails that came out yesterday.

9 posted on 11/20/2009 6:58:14 PM PST by jonascord (Hey, we have the Constitution. What's to worry about?)
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To: miliantnutcase

You’re older!


10 posted on 11/20/2009 6:58:34 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bomb-a administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: broncobilly
"Isn’t that the point? Our system is not closed."

Aside from the obvious sources of external energy one must also quantify the affect of natural selection as in input and feedback path into the equation. Creationists present an incomplete equation and then attempt to use it as proof to refute science. God certainly created life and guided its ascent, but the process He used wasn't crossing His arms and nodding His head like Genie or wiggling His nose like Samantha Stevens.

11 posted on 11/20/2009 6:59:58 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: editor-surveyor

The secret is out! lmao


12 posted on 11/20/2009 7:00:52 PM PST by miliantnutcase
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To: miliantnutcase

Not at all...they only let paid subscribers read current year issues. The 2009 issues will not be available until 2010 for the general public. Not a bad deal compared to most journals, who never let the general public see a word without shelling out copious amounts of $$$.


13 posted on 11/20/2009 7:01:51 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: jonascord
"...when you have an equation that REQUIRES a factor of "(Then a miracle happens...)", "Cute cartoon, awful science.
14 posted on 11/20/2009 7:02:26 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: editor-surveyor

“Re-understood”...LOL!


15 posted on 11/20/2009 7:03:39 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: broncobilly

Creationsts (of my own stripe) sometimes make the mistake of saying the the 2nd law (”entropy law,” as it were)”disproves” evolution. This is not true, because an evolutionist can always make some sort of rescue dodge. For example, they might perhaps suggest that entropy has gone up and down in the past, cyclically. The problem is, evolutionary dogma is so plastic it cannot explain anything.
Yes, the earth is an open system; but simple raw, “unintelligent” energy will not assemble life, just as an energetic bull will not stack dishes by expending that energy willy-nilly in a china shop. Energy can bring order only if there is some sort of conversion device, and the conversion device itself would be very complicated.
It would be correct,however, to say that the 2nd Law does, at least, present tremendous problems for one who is defending the evolutionary position


16 posted on 11/20/2009 7:05:39 PM PST by Phantom4
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To: Natural Law

“How is entropy applicable to a non-closed system?:

There IS no non-closed system since we have only one universe. The universe is a system and it is in indeed closed...


17 posted on 11/20/2009 7:06:08 PM PST by babygene
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To: Phantom4

Did you read this section of the article?

“Entropy is not a manifestation of the second law of thermodynamics ... Entropy is much broader than the second law of thermodynamics.”


18 posted on 11/20/2009 7:09:52 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: babygene
"There IS no non-closed system since we have only one universe"

Then quantify the enthalpy in your so-called closed system. Jeez, I hate it when people who can't even balance their own checkbooks challenge the calulus of evolution.

19 posted on 11/20/2009 7:10:04 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: GodGunsGuts

The energy provided by our sun has kept the second law of thermodynamics at bay within our local solar system so far.


20 posted on 11/20/2009 7:10:07 PM PST by RC one
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To: Natural Law

Point 1: It seems to me that if you have a closed system, entropy will increse. You don’t have to quantify anything.
Point 2: In using the second law of themodynamics, they are not trying to refute science. They are refuting atheism.
Point 3: Your comment about Sammantha Stevens is irrelevant.


21 posted on 11/20/2009 7:10:44 PM PST by broncobilly
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To: jonascord
You should understand that when you have an equation that REQUIRES a factor of "(Then a miracle happens...)", you start to have a compulsion to play with verbal gymnastics, and careful selection of truths...

well said. But with evolutionalists you are dealing with a religion and not science so it doesn't matter.

22 posted on 11/20/2009 7:11:08 PM PST by plain talk
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To: babygene

The earth is not a closed system.


23 posted on 11/20/2009 7:11:31 PM PST by mamelukesabre (Pray for Obama...Psalms 109:8)
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To: RC one

How so?


24 posted on 11/20/2009 7:12:15 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: Phantom4

That’s very interesting. To the modern Christian the opposite of creation is nothingness, but in Genesis it reads that God created the world from some pre-existing matter.

For the ancient Near East mastering chaos, a malevolent force, was the height of power. God, creating order, did just that, no?


25 posted on 11/20/2009 7:12:33 PM PST by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: Natural Law

Apparently, it’s the kind they were practicing in East Anglia at the CRU...


26 posted on 11/20/2009 7:12:34 PM PST by jonascord (Hey, we have the Constitution. What's to worry about?)
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To: RC one

How does the sun prevent entropy?


27 posted on 11/20/2009 7:14:14 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: Natural Law

“Then quantify the enthalpy in your so-called closed system. Jeez, I hate it when people who can’t even balance their own checkbooks challenge the calulus of evolution.”

You are being so stupid! I don’t know if you can’t help yourself or if you are playing games.

You didn’t begin to refute the “one universe, one closed system” point...


28 posted on 11/20/2009 7:15:06 PM PST by babygene
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To: June K.

~~~ PING Creation vs Evolution PING ~~~

The concept of Entropy is intriguing, and one which evolutionists have never been able to come to grips with — ie: “If the universe is a complex wound up watch ticking away, how did the watch get wound up in the first place”?


29 posted on 11/20/2009 7:18:11 PM PST by Mr_Moonlight
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To: broncobilly
"Point 1: It seems to me that if you have a closed system, entropy will increase. You don’t have to quantify anything."

Exactly, you don't have a closed system so entropy does not govern or dominate.

Point 2: In using the second law of themodynamics, they are not trying to refute science. They are refuting atheism.

Although created by God, physics and the laws of thermodynamics are agnostic,

Point 3: Your comment about Samantha Stevens is irrelevant.

However God created everything was a process. If He didn't "abracadabra" everything into existence, what processes do you suggest He used?

30 posted on 11/20/2009 7:19:06 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: RC one

“The energy provided by our sun has kept the second law of thermodynamics at bay within our local solar system so far.”

Assuming the creator created the universe and not just the earth and the people on it, then the “system” would be the whole universe. No?


31 posted on 11/20/2009 7:19:45 PM PST by babygene
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To: Natural Law

>> Creationists present an incomplete equation and then attempt to use it as proof to refute science

If the system is not closed, does that mean it is unbounded?


32 posted on 11/20/2009 7:20:45 PM PST by Gene Eric (Your Hope has been redistributed. Here's your Change.)
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To: babygene

I’d suggest a review of entropy is in order... The 2nd law of thermodynamics is completely consistent with the theory of evolution, as well as the theory of aggregation of matter into planets and stars.

Total energy in the system is decreasing, as the energy contained in accelerated mass is spent in aggregation of planets and stars, and further decreased by thermal means (friction, fission, and fusion).

That said, local entropy can reverse if the entire system is decreasing, due to the expenditure of large amounts of energy (see the aforementioned creation of stars).


33 posted on 11/20/2009 7:21:43 PM PST by PugetSoundSoldier (Pray for President Obama: Psalms 109:8)
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To: babygene
"You didn’t begin to refute the “one universe, one closed system” point..."

If I am the stupid one why didn't you recognize the incongruity of an infinite and unquantifiable system being "closed".

34 posted on 11/20/2009 7:21:50 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: mamelukesabre

“The earth is not a closed system.:

But the universe is, and assuming God created the heavens and the earth, the universe is a closed system... Get it now?


35 posted on 11/20/2009 7:22:50 PM PST by babygene
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To: plain talk
"But with evolutionalists you are dealing with a religion and not science so it doesn't matter.

And an Evolutionist is anyone who is not a strict adherent of Genesis? Seems a little restrictive...

36 posted on 11/20/2009 7:22:54 PM PST by jonascord (Hey, we have the Constitution. What's to worry about?)
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To: Phantom4; babygene

The 2nd law has little specific applicability to the evolution of life on earth, but plenty to the evolution of any and all matter in the universe. It took a *huge* violation of the 2nd law to create atoms, or even subatomic particles in the first place. Any subsequent violations were just tiny drops in the great universal bucket.


37 posted on 11/20/2009 7:24:02 PM PST by GovernmentShrinker
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To: GodGunsGuts
Nice post.

Legitimate minds have confronted the problem: Shroedinger, Delbruck, Prigogine, Monod, and those less thermodynamically restricted, in particular Teilhard de Chardin.

Our approach has always been cosmologically mathematical. That is, there is some field disturbance which initiates the negentropic reaction. But little quantitative insight beyond that until extraterrestrial exploration lends more evidence.

In any case there is the very real possibility those technical minds are still struggling within provincial scientific rationalization, and the human race is missing profound revelation.

Thanks for the reference.

Johnny Suntrade, The Suntrade Institute

38 posted on 11/20/2009 7:24:08 PM PST by jnsun (The Left: the need to manipulate others because of nothing productive to offer.)
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To: babygene

no


39 posted on 11/20/2009 7:24:57 PM PST by mamelukesabre (Pray for Obama...Psalms 109:8)
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To: broncobilly

it applies equally to both systems, evo PURPOSELY OVERLOOK THAT, GEEZ, EVEN EVO TRUE SCIENTISTS ADMIT IT:

“...there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems,******... there is somehow associated with the field of far-from equilibrium phenomena the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself.” [Dr. John Ross, Harvard scientist (evolutionist), Chemical and Engineering News, vol. 58, July 7, 1980, p. 40]


40 posted on 11/20/2009 7:28:08 PM PST by raygunfan
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To: GodGunsGuts
Good evening.

There is a large sign at the corner of Dale Mabry and Van Dyke that states: God, Guns and Guts made America free. Great tag line.

5.56mm

41 posted on 11/20/2009 7:29:42 PM PST by M Kehoe
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To: babygene

The system is the whole universe, period (including parts we may not know exist). You don’t have to assume anything about a creator. There is an “everything” system, even if we can’t locate its limits. And the fact that there is order *anywhere* in that system, means that order has to have ceom into being somehow. And the 2nd law doesn’t provide any means for order to come into existence in the first place.


42 posted on 11/20/2009 7:29:43 PM PST by GovernmentShrinker
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To: Natural Law

“why didn’t you recognize the incongruity of an infinite and unquantifiable”

Most things are infinite and unquantifiable by man.

I challenge you to go out into your backyard and explain anything you come across in other than a superficial way. Pick anything and try to peel back the onion. My 7 year old grandson will have you stammering before you answer “why” 6 times.


43 posted on 11/20/2009 7:31:56 PM PST by babygene
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To: raygunfan

“...there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems ... there is somehow associated with the field of far-from equilibrium phenomena the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself.” [Dr. John Ross, Harvard scientist (evolutionist), Chemical and Engineering News, vol. 58, July 7, 1980, p. 40]


44 posted on 11/20/2009 7:36:20 PM PST by raygunfan
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To: GodGunsGuts

“How does the sun prevent entropy?”

Ok, I know this is futile, but I love posting to you on occasion.

The sun provides the energy to overcome entropy on the earth. It ultimately provides all the energy for the increasingly complex DNA of increasingly evolved creatures on earth.

It really isn’t that hard a concept. A flashlight with dead batteries has reached some increased level of chemical entropy within the batteries - all available energy is expended. However, if you recharge the batteries, and decrease the local entropy of the batteries, does that mean you are God?

No, it means you can once again see in the dark.

Your question and the proposition that “entropy” calls for “Devolution” from some biblical perfection has nothing to do with actual science.


45 posted on 11/20/2009 7:36:47 PM PST by RFEngineer
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To: raygunfan

What do you mean by “admit it?”
The fact that entropy increases in both closed and open systems makes the argument for God stronger, not weaker.
In other words, whether the system is closed or open, it can not generate compex organization by itself or with just an input of energy from an outside source such as the sun.
It requires an outside organizing force such as God.


46 posted on 11/20/2009 7:37:49 PM PST by broncobilly
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To: babygene
"Most things are infinite and unquantifiable by man.

Thank you for helping to point out the naivete (to be kind) of GGG attempting to resurrect the old Entropy argument against evolution.

(I've got a 7 year old granddaughter exactly like that.)

47 posted on 11/20/2009 7:38:46 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: broncobilly

no, i agree, with God being the creator...im just pointing out that all the goof balls on here who posted where they said the 2nd law didnt apply, are plainly wrong....
god is in control...and they plainly dont like it.


48 posted on 11/20/2009 7:40:21 PM PST by raygunfan
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To: M Kehoe

I got it from the exact same phrase (over a decade ago) on a massive red, white and blue beltbuckle with crossed rifles!


49 posted on 11/20/2009 7:41:05 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

As a mechanical engineer with extensive background in thermodynamics, I’ve been through these idiotic arguments before. Entropy is not a limiting condition in open systems with energy sources and heat sinks.

In fact, evolution is pro entropy creation, because the creation of local order comes at the overall enhanced disorder of the rest of the universe.


50 posted on 11/20/2009 7:42:03 PM PST by FastCoyote (I am intolerant of the intolerable.)
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