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Cultists now in charge (Guns cost more lives than they save) BARF ALERT!
Salon.com ^ | 27 JAN 10 | Gene Lyons

Posted on 01/27/2011 7:30:05 AM PST by DCBryan1

Cultists now in charge

Gene Lyons

Some years ago, I reported on a self-defense/gun-safety class mainly for women at Rice University.

There had been several forcible rapes on the Houston, Texas, campus. Students had armed themselves. The instructor was an Army ROTC officer. A Vietnam combat veteran, he found the prospect of undergraduates packing heat unsettling, but reasoned that if they were arming themselves anyway, some training was better than none. Unlike many entrepreneurs teaching concealed-carry classes from sea to shining sea, he urged students to leave their guns at home. He stressed that he couldn’t turn them into infantry soldiers with a few sessions in a gym basement. Even most armed assailants, he explained, aren’t hell-bent upon murder. They use weapons to control their victims.

Anybody pulling a gun must shoot to kill without hesitation. The soldier reasoned that most Rice students simply weren’t prepared to do that; hence, the likeliest outcome was that criminals would end up murdering them with their own guns. Heightened awareness, avoiding lonely places at night and pepper spray or Mace would afford more safety than the illusion of power conveyed by a 9 mm semi-automatic.

Our instructor further advised that shotguns are the weapon of choice for home defense. Unlike a heavycaliber handgun, a shotgun will put an intruder out of business without a bullet passing through a wall and killing a sleeping child.

He emphasized that anybody suspecting a nighttime home invasion should first perform a thorough bed check—a procedure that saved me from potential catastrophe one night after my teen-age son and a friend sneaked out to howl at the moon under a maiden’s window at 2 a.m., leaving an open back door and a halfdozen beagles running through the house.

Creeping back home, the lads overheard me shucking shells from my 20-gauge pump, an unmistakably chilling sound. Fearing that burglars had taken us hostage, they were subsequently apprehended in headlong flight up the street. They’d been running for help, they explained.

Would I have shot an unknown intruder? I believe so. I’m also glad I’ve never had to face the choice. Killing a human being, almost regardless of provocation, is nothing like hunting game. Never mind legal peril. Contrary to action/adventure films, psychological fallout can be severe.

Anyway, we students next proceeded to the firing range for lessons in loading, unloading and blasting paper targets.

“If you can point your finger,” I wrote, “you can learn to kill,” an observation that annoyed almost as many gun fanciers as this column will. Maybe I should have said that I was already fairly good with a shotgun and had spent half my life aiming balls at things.

Anyway, here’s the thing: In the wake of the Tucson tragedy, handgun advocates argue that a well-armed private citizen could have saved lives by putting a decisive end to a gunman’s mad act. Never mind that Arizona has the most permissive gun laws in the country. Indeed, no laws had been broken until U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords was shot in the head at pointblank range.

Ah, but there was an armed bystander. His name is Joe Zamudio, and he bravely helped subdue Jared Loughner without firing a shot. But Zamudio has admitted how close he came to shooting the heroic retired Army colonel who reportedly wrested the pistol from the alleged shooter’s hands when he paused to reload. Thanks to a 30-round ammo clip, he had gotten off 31 shots in 15 seconds. Fifteen seconds! Everything was chaos and terror.

In Hollywood films, shoot-outs are carefully choreographed. Villains can’t shoot; heroes rarely miss. Nobody panics. Melodramatic violence metes out justice and redeems the world.

In reality, as Americans seem fated to experience again and again without learning anything:

A gunman walks into a Detroit police station and shoots four cops before himself being killed.
Two cops serving a warrant in St. Petersburg, Fla., are killed and a U.S. marshal wounded by a suspect who escapes.
Two sheriff’s deputies are shot at a Wal-Mart near Seattle before a third officer kills their assailant, whose motives remain unknown.
A policeman in Waldport, Ore., is shot by an unknown assailant during a routine traffic stop. He remains in critical condition.
At another routine stop, an Indianapolis cop is shot four times, twice in the face. He’s in critical condition, too.
All of these events occurred within 24 hours between Jan. 23 and 24.

It’s worth emphasizing that the 11 victims were trained, experienced law enforcement officers. But their assailants, who’d found semi-automatic weapons easier to acquire than whiskey, gave them no chance.

Meanwhile, National Rifle Association fundamentalists pretend that America will be a freer, safer place if more poorly trained, inexperienced, unfit, would-be Bruce Willis heroes were waddling around shopping malls carrying pistols.

There’s a word for people who cling to absurd beliefs against massive evidence. They’re called cultists, and they’re currently in charge.

Arkansas Democrat-Gazette columnist Gene Lyons is a National Magazine Award winner and co-author of "The Hunting of the President" (St. Martin's Press, 2000). You can e-mail Lyons at eugenelyons2@yahoo.com.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Editorial; News/Current Events; US: Arkansas
KEYWORDS: 2ndamendment; antigun; antigunner; antigunnut; banglist; barfalert; bradybunch; cch; ccw; chcl; concealedcarry; genelyons; graboid; gunban; gunbanner; gungrabber; gunrights; opencarry; rkba; semiautomatic
There are so many falsehoods that you could dissect this article sentence by sentence. Just goes to show you that the gungrabbers are STILL out there and want to disarm you IOT establish their Communist Utopia.
1 posted on 01/27/2011 7:30:08 AM PST by DCBryan1
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To: DCBryan1

The leftists have to blame guns because they can’t ever blame their fellow criminals. Lowlife thugs have to protect their own....


2 posted on 01/27/2011 7:36:19 AM PST by Soothesayer (smallpox is not a person)
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To: DCBryan1

I didn’t realize the whole point of self defense was to be an “infantry soldier”?

That said, that former soldier would have his ass handed to him in a one-on-one situation with a well-trained gun owner. Infantry skills do not make one a super soldier or a pistoleer, and using this one guy as a real-life “straw man” is a specious argument.


3 posted on 01/27/2011 7:36:25 AM PST by SJSAMPLE
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To: DCBryan1

This is one of the biggest pieces of horse manure I have read in a long time.


4 posted on 01/27/2011 7:36:31 AM PST by Logical me
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To: DCBryan1

The NRA is for wimps. Statists water carriers. The John McCain of gun groups.


5 posted on 01/27/2011 7:38:57 AM PST by Leisler (Our debts are someone's profit. Follow the money, the vig.....)
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To: DCBryan1
Guns are used 2.5 millions times a year to prevent robberies, rapes, murders, carjackings, home-invasions, etc., 99% of the time without a shot being fired.

Gun Facts

6 posted on 01/27/2011 7:40:41 AM PST by E. Pluribus Unum ("If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun." -- Barry Soetoro, June 11, 2008)
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To: DCBryan1
waddling around shopping malls carrying pistols
Now that's really a well-reasoned argument, isn't it?

The author can only call names. That's what this POS piece is all about. Smearing good people.

7 posted on 01/27/2011 7:43:07 AM PST by samtheman
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To: DCBryan1

Facts that do not fit the liberal agenda are always ignored and this article does a good job of ignoring many, many facts.


8 posted on 01/27/2011 7:43:52 AM PST by Erik Latranyi (Too many conservatives urge retreat when the war of politics doesn't go their way.)
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To: DCBryan1
You are absolutely correct that the number of falsehoods and inaccuracies in this so-called article is beyond comprehension.
The author abruptly flips from rape scenario to a peculiar bullet passing through wall and striking a child notion practically in the same sentence.
What a truly bizarre collection of ideas that the writer somehow believes creates an understandable narrative.


9 posted on 01/27/2011 7:45:17 AM PST by Blue Jays (Rock Hard, Ride Free)
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To: SJSAMPLE
They say that Bill Hickok wasn't particularly fast, although he was accurate. I'm told that what made Hickok deadly was that he decided before anyone else did that he was going to kill somebody.

I think that's a vital advantage in armed confrontations.

10 posted on 01/27/2011 7:45:25 AM PST by Oberon (Big Brutha Be Watchin'.)
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To: DCBryan1

They might be right, they might cost more lives than they save. However, my daughter is an individual,, I am an individual,, what is best for the individual is what matters here, not the collective.


11 posted on 01/27/2011 7:45:45 AM PST by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office)
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To: DCBryan1
"Anybody pulling a gun must shoot to kill without hesitation. The soldier reasoned that most Rice students simply weren’t prepared to do that; hence, the likeliest outcome was that criminals would end up murdering them with their own guns. Heightened awareness, avoiding lonely places at night and pepper spray or Mace would afford more safety than the illusion of power conveyed by a 9 mm semi-automatic."

I have to say I tend to agree with this statement if young college aged girls are included in this statement.

Many thugs would run away if they saw a young woman pull a gun out, but those that didn't would be the ones who would become incredibly violent in a fight/flight scenario and would kill you if you hesitated for a split second.

Either that or these lawsuit conscious kids just plain missed because they truly didn't believe it when they were told that hitting a moving human at 10 feet in the dark while scared to death is not at all a guaranteed kill like the paper targets at the range are.

12 posted on 01/27/2011 7:46:24 AM PST by Abathar (Proudly posting without reading the article carefully since 2004)
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To: DCBryan1
How do they know how many lives have been saved?
This drivel is as lame as Obama saving jobs.
13 posted on 01/27/2011 7:46:36 AM PST by MaxMax
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To: DCBryan1

Eugene Aloysius Lyons (AKA Gene Lyons)is a flame-thrower of the first magnitude. He knows not civility or subdued rhetoric or truth. I quick taking our local newspaper primarily due to the fact that it featured Alo-ishi-us in their OpEd page every Sunday.

I wrote rebuttals (which were always printed), and made phone calls to the editorial staff to replace him with ANYBODY else. But to no avail. So the subscription was cancelled.

Now I’ve got to stomach this flaming-a$$ on FR? Sheeeesh!


14 posted on 01/27/2011 7:49:43 AM PST by downtownconservative
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To: DCBryan1

Not to worry. Gene Lyons is the chief Clinton apologist at the Arkansas Democrat Gazette and a Molly Ivins wannabe.


15 posted on 01/27/2011 7:55:45 AM PST by Little Ray (The Gods of the Copybook Heading, with terror and slaughter return!)
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To: DCBryan1

As he is known here....Liein’ Gene Lyons.


16 posted on 01/27/2011 8:08:19 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (I visited GEN TOMMY FRANKS Military Museum in HOBART, OKLAHOMA! Well worth it!)
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To: Oberon

Agreed.
“Be polite, but be prepared to kill everyone you meet.”

Training makes it easier to make those decisions and make them correctly.

Of course, being UNARMED makes all of that moot.


17 posted on 01/27/2011 8:09:45 AM PST by SJSAMPLE
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To: DCBryan1
Anybody pulling a gun must shoot to kill without hesitation. The soldier reasoned that most Rice students simply weren’t prepared to do that

This is correct. If you aren't prepared to shoot to kill, pulling a gun may be worse than not doing so. Guns aren't magic wands.

My dad taught me decades ago I should never point a gun at someone unless I intend to kill him. By extrapolation one should not pull a gun unless you intend to kill someone.

A major fallacy of this article is something else he told me, "You seldom need a gun, but when you need one, you really, really need one."

18 posted on 01/27/2011 8:10:12 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: DCBryan1

Hollywood is filled with gun grabbers. They don’t understand weapons and make movies featuring all sorts of absurd gunplay that would never work off camera. It’s always a little surreal to see other gun grabbers criticize the unreality of Hollywood’s portrayal.


19 posted on 01/27/2011 8:14:21 AM PST by eclecticEel (Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness: 7/4/1776 - 3/21/2010)
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To: Abathar
“Heightened awareness, avoiding lonely places at night and pepper spray or Mace would afford more safety than the illusion of power conveyed by a 9 mm semi-automatic.”

Heightened awareness is always a good thing. Pepper spray or mace are illusions of self defense, and only in the illogical mind of an anti gun tyrant is the discussion about “illusions of power”.

Liberal solutions to avoiding becoming a victim of violent criminals always boils down to hiding in your room or traveling in a pack like hyenas hoping to be the last one eaten. It's not very comforting when you're in the crocodiles mouth and have no means of escape.

Utter moron.

20 posted on 01/27/2011 8:15:30 AM PST by bitterohiogunclinger (Proudly casting a heavy carbon footprint as I clean my guns ---)
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To: DCBryan1

A bumper stocker I saw couldn’t have said it any better:

“If guns kill people... do pencils misspell words?”


21 posted on 01/27/2011 8:18:44 AM PST by CharlesMartelsGhost
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To: CharlesMartelsGhost

s/b sticker see people not keyboards norp encils misspell words LOL


22 posted on 01/27/2011 8:19:26 AM PST by CharlesMartelsGhost
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To: DCBryan1
Another left wing idiot that doesn't understand the concept.

You don't have to turn everyone into a killing machine, you just need to keep the bad guys guessing which ones are.

When the bad guys know a 75 yo grandmother that normally would be safe to attack has the potential of being a trained killing machine, they call that deterrent.

Deterrent is a good thing.

23 posted on 01/27/2011 8:23:43 AM PST by IMR 4350
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To: DCBryan1

“Even most armed assailants, he explained, aren’t hell-bent upon murder. They use weapons to control their victims. “

A couple of points:
- I seriously doubt any good firearms instructor, not to mention combat veteran, would have said any such thing.

- Relying on the beneficence of a predator with a weapon is the stupidest thing one could ever do.

- Once someone pulls out a weapon in the commission of a predatory act they have given up the right to complain about overly harsh treatment.


24 posted on 01/27/2011 8:28:41 AM PST by webstersII
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To: bitterohiogunclinger
I think what he's saying is "Hey, lets take this dark alley as a shortcut home, its okay I have a gun now" is the mindset of a cocky kid because they have a weapon in their pocket instead of a better decision of walking around they would have made otherwise.

Pulling a gun out and killing another human being is hard to do even if you are well trained and prepared to do so, at close range that hesitation will get you killed faster than anything.

A gun isn't a cure-all for common sense, and for many young women a can of mace or pepper spray would be a better choice if they are not hesitant of using that like they would be about killing someone.

25 posted on 01/27/2011 8:31:03 AM PST by Abathar (Proudly posting without reading the article carefully since 2004)
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To: webstersII
I agree completely with your statement, but I think what he is saying is if there was 100k attacks in a year with a weapon but the weapon was only used 10k times during the acts then you stand a better chance of not forcing them to use it by threatening their life in retaliation with a gun.

Logically I can see his point if 50% of the people who do resist with a weapon are killed, he is simply playing the odds, in which case the criminals will win hands down every time but I would still not use his way of thinking myself.

26 posted on 01/27/2011 8:40:15 AM PST by Abathar (Proudly posting without reading the article carefully since 2004)
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To: DCBryan1

This is my local paper now.

Just about tore what’s left of my hair out reading that editorial this morning.
Arrrgh!


27 posted on 01/27/2011 8:45:48 AM PST by SirLurkedalot (**CA...I'm never going back)
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To: DCBryan1

These Liberal Fundamentalists such as eugenelyons2@yahoo.com, would rather the criminals of the US have the freedom to carry and use weapons against a people kept defenseless due to gun control laws that do nothing but hinder law abiding citizens.

Don’t think old Eugene here has noticed that had Pima cops done their job, Eugene’s bud Jared Loughner probably would not have been able to blast away.


28 posted on 01/27/2011 8:48:46 AM PST by VeniVidiVici (WTF with Obama!!)
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To: DCBryan1

If the government could afford to hire everyone a bodyguard, then they might have a point, but seeing as that is infeasible and police response times are slow they are sooo full of it...


29 posted on 01/27/2011 8:52:34 AM PST by GraceG
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To: DCBryan1

At least the author is right about the shotgun. There is NO more impressive, chilling, “mind-changing” sound than the racking of a 12 gauge.


30 posted on 01/27/2011 8:56:00 AM PST by Oldpuppymax
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To: DCBryan1
Gene Lyons:

Funny thing is in trying to find his pic I came across another Gene Lyons who was an ardent communist, and wrote many articles on the subject, born in 1898. Wonder if it's a case of the rotten apple not falling far from the tree?


31 posted on 01/27/2011 9:01:16 AM PST by VeniVidiVici (WTF with Obama!!)
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To: DCBryan1
From the article: "Anybody pulling a gun must shoot to kill without hesitation."

Legally I believe that one is only permitted to "shoot to stop", not "shoot to kill". It's unfortunate for the attacker that the two concepts are nearly identical.

If a weapon existed which would accurately sever the femoral artery of an attacker, the attacker would almost certainly die. But the minute or two that it might take for the attacker to bleed out would permit him to take your life. Shooting to kill isn't enough; you must shoot to stop the attack.

I recall the story of a woman who was attacked in her bedroom. She struggled against the attacker and managed to retrieve a .22 pistol from her purse, shooting the attacker about half a dozen times. Fortunately, the attacker died. The woman was pinned under him when he died and was very fortunate to have survived.

She would have been better off with a weapon more likely to STOP the attack than just kill the attacker.

32 posted on 01/27/2011 9:06:40 AM PST by William Tell
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To: VeniVidiVici

Boy, do you have that wrong! The Eugene Lyons who was born in 1898 was an ardent ANTI-Communist. His book, The Red Decade, is a devastating expose of Communist infiltration in the New Deal. He also wrote a book in teh 1950s, Our Secret Allies, which promoted revolution in the non-Russian Republics of the USSR.


33 posted on 01/27/2011 9:06:48 AM PST by Captain Kirk (Q)
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To: SirLurkedalot
Welcome to FR! MY wife's family is from Thousand Oaks, CA. I hope they can get the hell out of there! Their 1,500 sq/foot house was worth 800k in 2005.....now less than 400k.

They want to wait for the housing market to pick up before moving out to AR, but I'm telling them that with Moonbeam as Gov, their house will be worth close to 200k soon. FReegards!

34 posted on 01/27/2011 9:08:11 AM PST by DCBryan1 (FORGET the lawyers...first kill the "journalists". (Die Ritter der Kokosnuss))
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To: Oldpuppymax

Except maybe the sound of a safety clicking off from about two feet behind you...


35 posted on 01/27/2011 9:12:00 AM PST by Dead Corpse (III%. The last line in the sand)
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To: Oldpuppymax
At least the author is right about the shotgun. There is NO more impressive, chilling, “mind-changing” sound than the racking of a 12 gauge

I teach my students that when confronting goblins in the home uninvited, your shotgun better be loaded, and the first sound they should hear is BANG!.

"Racking" your shotgun tells the enemy 1) where you are, and 2) to possibly start shooting that direction.

36 posted on 01/27/2011 9:12:00 AM PST by DCBryan1 (FORGET the lawyers...first kill the "journalists". (Die Ritter der Kokosnuss))
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To: DCBryan1
I teach my students that when confronting goblins in the home uninvited, your shotgun better be loaded, and the first sound they should hear is BANG!.

Agreed. About 3 years ago I converted from a Mossberg pump to a Saiga 12 semi-auto. There is no finer close-quarters defense weapon, IMO.

37 posted on 01/27/2011 9:17:13 AM PST by CholeraJoe ("I am second?" WTH? Buncha losers.)
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To: DCBryan1

They don’t tell you that the increase in deaths is the bad guys...and for them who cares...


38 posted on 01/27/2011 9:17:43 AM PST by goat granny
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To: webstersII

“They use weapons to control their victims. “

When someone you wouldn’t want to surrender to pulls a gun in a violent confrontation, you should immediately run towards or away from the Gun.

Once you start to comply with the gunman it becomes increasingly harder to break out of your compliance mindset.

A guy with a .22 got a bunch of people and had them line up and wait for their bullet to the back of the head. A .22 anywhere else would hurt, but most likely wouldn’t kill. So sitting and waiting for their execution is about the dumbest thing they could have done, and yet none of them could break out of the mindset of compliance with the gunman’s demands.


39 posted on 01/27/2011 9:20:57 AM PST by allmendream (Tea Party did not send the GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism.)
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To: DCBryan1
another routine stop

Smart cops know there's no such thing.

40 posted on 01/27/2011 9:26:30 AM PST by Hardastarboard (Bringing children to America without immigration documents is child abuse. Let's end it.)
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To: allmendream

“A guy with a .22 got a bunch of people and had them line up and wait for their bullet to the back of the head. “

Va Tech shooter. Nobody stood up to him, they just lined up like sheep (this is what the firearms instructor recommends). The only guy that tried to do anything was a 70-year old holocaust survivor and he saved a bunch of lives.

I’m not the toughest guy in the world but I’ll be danged if I’m gonna stand there and wait my turn to take a bullet.


41 posted on 01/27/2011 9:38:00 AM PST by webstersII
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To: webstersII
Especially a .22.

Like I said, waiting for it in the back of the head is about the only way you will get a guaranteed kill shot.

Whoever recommends compliance with a gunman is an absolute idiot and should NEVER be involved in instructing the public on safety.

You are safer running towards or away from the gun than in compliance with the gunman.

I mean when he is going down the line and kills the first three people, and you are the fourth.......

The psychology of the situation is just amazing to me.

42 posted on 01/27/2011 9:46:39 AM PST by allmendream (Tea Party did not send the GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism.)
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To: allmendream

“The psychology of the situation is just amazing to me.”

Me, too.

I will say, though, that many people freeze in a situation like that. Their mind turns off.

I believe the reason is that they have not thought through in their mind what they would do in that situation, which is what most self-defense courses (with or without guns) teach.


43 posted on 01/27/2011 9:50:42 AM PST by webstersII
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To: webstersII
That is the good thing about training, it “takes over”.

I had Karate classes from 12-14. I never knew just how much it was ingrained in me until years later I was blocking punching and putting a guy in an arm lock without even thinking about it.

That is why “training” someone to comply with a gunman is so idiotic. Train them to run away, or run towards; never comply.

44 posted on 01/27/2011 9:53:19 AM PST by allmendream (Tea Party did not send the GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism.)
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To: DCBryan1

Thanks! I signed up in 2000, “Lurkedalot” before that but the greeting is still appreciated.

It was both a leap of faith and a dream fulfilled to get out that pit (and even worse I was in SANTA CRUZ!!!) but one I won’t regret. It’s beautiful out here, people have manners and mean it...I could go on and on. LOL I almost felt like a felon walking out of Academy Sporting Goods w/13ers for my G21SF.

I feel like I live in America again


45 posted on 01/27/2011 10:40:25 AM PST by SirLurkedalot
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To: DCBryan1

I actually do believe this guy was a former military/cop man.

Many start to see the world as a “Us vs Them” type thing. The idea of a civilian armed is shocking and a threat.


46 posted on 01/27/2011 10:50:32 AM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: DCBryan1

> Cultists now in charge (Guns cost more lives than they save)

Your bodyguards disarm first, ok?

Crickets from the hyper-hypocritical Left.


47 posted on 01/27/2011 11:38:33 AM PST by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: SJSAMPLE
He stressed that he couldn’t turn them into infantry soldiers with a few sessions in a gym basement

Unreasonably high bar.

"Better than a cop" should be achievable.

48 posted on 01/27/2011 1:21:34 PM PST by Oztrich Boy (History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce - Karl Marx)
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To: Little Ray

Yea he is. I do not read his articles. Full of bull.


49 posted on 01/27/2011 7:37:13 PM PST by therut
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To: DCBryan1

Dissect one or two for us dullards? This Lyons item, is,
BTW a classic of the genre.


50 posted on 01/30/2011 1:27:56 AM PST by cycjec
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