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Posted on 11/07/2011 10:01:35 AM PST by DemforBush
Authorities and doctors are warning parents who want to avoid chicken pox vaccines for their children that a new mail-order scheme to share lollipops licked by children infected with the disease as a way to create immunity in their kids is not only unsafe but illegal...
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
Is it? That would be excellent evidence? Can you dig that up?
BTW, for any FReepers wondering, I’m just your average joe, keyboard cowboy here. I don’t have a masters in anything save maybe common sense.
“Based upon what?”
What’s the source for your claim that the 100 deaths are of healthy individuals, and not immune compromised. You made this claim, and since this is your field, I presume you have a source ready.
Or perhaps, you’re hoping that your vast expertise will be sufficient. Your call.
“I don’t believe any vaccine should be mandatory.”
Really? You don’t believe that DPT or MMR should be mandatory? And you’re an immunologist? What’s your rationale for not requiring DPT or MMR? I think there’s solid science behind recommending all 6 be mandatory.
“My argument has been the same throughout - your statement that it makes no sense to vaccinate a perfectly healthy person is absolutely ignorant.”
The problem is that I never made this claim. Never did. You’re arguing with yourself and not me. All I ever said is that I didn’t believe that we should be inoculating against chicken pox.
“Thanks for the LATE clarification that you are ONLY talking about chicken pox.”
FFS, I refer you to the earlier post in the thread, where I said, exactly this. I am glad you are finally admitting that you were wrong about what I said. Just to think, had you actually done what I asked and read up on the thread, you could have saved yourself considerable consternation.
“With the clarification that it was ONLY about chicken pox it is still ignorant drivel.”
And then we get back to the other argument.
“There IS a good reason to vaccinate against chicken pox, because the disease can cause scarring,pneumonia, encephalitis,and even death. And NOT just in the immune compromised.”
Did you just look up the list of scary complications? Is it likely to do any of these? No.
There’s no justification to vaccinate against an overwhelmingly benign disease that isn’t a threat to public health. End stop.
BTW, I’m still waiting for you to acknowledge my point about herd immunity for diptheria and herd immunity for influenza. There is a difference, right?
>>If your memory was any good at all you would remember me as the one saying that Swine Flu was almost certainly not engineered by evil scientists and that it was a media frenzy and that I doubted the fatality rate from flu during the “swine flu” panic<<
Oh now don’t be modest!!! I definitely remember your ‘style’ of argument, including belittling those who disagree with you and throwing up your credentials whenever you were in a corner.
Yep, just another day and another vaccine to champion. In fact, if memory serves me correctly, you never did answer whether or not you were an academic or employed by a drug company. Your name stands out and your style is your own.
Your failure to provide a source when asked about a VERY SPECIFIC claim is justified because I failed to provide a source for the claim that there were around 100 chicken pox deaths a year in the USA prior to vaccination?
Here is my source.
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/969773-overview
Where is your source that “all or almost all” of these were immune compromised?
I didn’t bring up my “vast expertise”, you asked.
I see how this works for idiots without credentials - they ask “what are yours?” and if you HAVE them - then you are merely arguing from authority (preposterous as I never tried to validate my statements through my own authority) - and if you do NOT have any - then you are arguing from ignorance (as BenKenobi is).
I don’t think ANY vaccine should be mandatory because I don’t see that as one of the limited and enumerated power given to government.
Chicken pox is not benign. If that is the basis of your preposterous argument that there is no reason to vaccinate a healthy person (for chicken pox ONLY you clarify later) then it is absolutely based upon ignorance.
ONLY healthy people should be vaccinated.
Ideal health is when someone should be vaccinated.
Sick people should not be vaccinated.
This is not difficult for an intelligent person to understand. But I can see where you would have a lot of trouble with the concept.
Reminds me of an old South Park episode.
I was asked very specifically what expertise or credentials I had on this subject.
But I see how stupid people like to argue.
If you have credentials then you are arguing just from authority and trying to hide behind your credentials.
And if you have no credentials then one would have to concede that they didn't really know any more about the subject than the anti vaccine zealot ignorant Jenny McCarthy granola hippie fleabag numbnutz.
I am happy to report (and have previously on this very thread) that I work for a drug company - some in the therapeutic area of inflammation (which, for those of you in Rio Linda, is an aspect of immune function).
I do not work on, and neither does my company work on with sell or develop - any vaccines.
“Your failure to provide a source”
T’was your claim that those who died were actually healthy and not immune compromised. I claimed, as logic would dictate, that we would see a higher rate of death if healthy people were susceptible to dying.
“Here is my source”
Unfortunately your source does not say what you claim. Odd that. That you would deliberately cite a source that does not cite your claim leads me to believe that you don’t actually have any source to back up your claim that those who died were healthy.
This isn’t exactly helping your claim that this is your field, btw.
“I didn’t bring up my “vast expertise”, you asked.”
You said we should trust you based on your authority, which immediately prompted my comment. If you are relying on an argument from authority, then yes, this is going to get called on.
“I see how this works for idiots without credentials”
So now, I’m an idiot because I do not have your credentials? Logic would dictate that the one with the credentials would be able to explain their position in a calm and collected manner, befitting their obviously superior background knowledge.
Again, this isn’t the case here. Which makes me wonder what credentials you really have.
“I never tried to validate my statements through my own authority”
Actually, yes you did. Calling me idiot, moron, ignorant, etc, isn’t helping either.
“I don’t think ANY vaccine should be mandatory because I don’t see that as one of the limited and enumerated power given to government.”
Then you believe that public education is also one of the limited and enumerate powers of the government, and that the government has the right to collect your tax dollars in order to immunize other people?
“Chicken pox is not benign.”
It’s not very virulent. The opposite of virulent is benign.
“If that is the basis of your preposterous argument that there is no reason to vaccinate a healthy person (for chicken pox ONLY you clarify later”
I stated, if you had read up in the thread, that I believed that vaccination should only take place for diseases that were life threatening, and were effective with herd immunity. Chicken pox fails both criterions.
I suggest, again, that you read up in the thread, and then you will see, that I said precisely that.
“This is not difficult for an intelligent person to understand.”
Apparently it is difficult for you to understand that I never said what you are claiming I said. I presume and intelligent person would be able to recall what I said correctly, rather than distorting my comments.
“But I can see where you would have a lot of trouble with the concept”
Let’s see, still haven’t addressed my argument that there is a difference for herd immunity between influenza and diptheria, which explains why public policy has treated both diseases in a different fashion.
Still waiting for the all high and mighty scholar to deal with this, which was an argument I stated right away.
“Jenny McCarthy granola hippie fleabag numbnutz”
Wow.
“Thou saucy onion-eyed fustilarian!” Forsooth!
>>I was asked very specifically what expertise or credentials I had on this subject.<<
LOLOLOLOL!!!!
Um, no. No one asked at all. You proudly volunteered. Over and over. Just like on this thread.
And so it’s finally known, you work for a drug company. Sly with the way you avoided that before. But it does explain why people getting vaccines is so important to you. Bread and butter and all that.
Have a good day!
I didn't say anyone should trust me based upon anything - I stated that giving a vaccine to a sick person is counterproductive and asked if you required a basic education in how vaccination works. You then ASKED ME what expertise I have - unfortunately for you I know what I am talking about with vaccinations and you have nothing.
Where is your source that these children who died of chicken pox were “all or almost all” immune compromised?
I answered this question two posts down with what credentials I have on this subject.
So you rely upon your memory do you?
“No one asked at all.” you claimed. Are you ready to concede that you are in error?
Finally? I proudly say I work for a pharmaceutical company.
Did you miss the part where I pointed out that neither me or the company I work for works with sells or develops vaccinations?
Have a great day living in ignorance and misremembering the things you think you know, but don't, and getting factually wrong things on the very page you are commenting on!
You are funny!!! If one finds appalling ignorance amusing.
You cited a source that didn’t even say what you claimed it said. Ball in your court. I thought this was supposed to be your field, that you had a masters degree and were educated.
I’m not seeing much evidence for any of your claims.
“I stated that giving a vaccine to a sick person is counterproductive”
Where did I argue that sick people should be vaccinated?
“You then ASKED ME what expertise I have - unfortunately for you I know what I am talking about with vaccinations and you have nothing.”
You can’t even quote an argument successfully, or provide evidence for your claim that healthy people are at risk for dying from chicken pox. I think we can write myth busted for this one.
LOL! I’ve seen that headline the past two days or so and I could not figure out what the story was about. Who would be dumb enough to do this?!!
Another story said it was on Facebook...but I like yours better.
>>Are you ready to concede that you are in error?<<
Yep, sure am. I missed it on this thread.
Big people admit mistakes. Elitists resort to name calling. *cough you cough*
Have a nice day!
I agree that people should be able to do as they wish. If they wish to expose their children to unnecessary vaccination risks, than this is entirely their right to do as parents.
I am having trouble resolving your first statement with your last.
I too had chicken pox as a child and have never had shingles (yet). Then again, I knew two kids that had to drop out of college for a semester because their shingles were so bad. The world is also full of people who have never been vaccinated for mumps, and have had no issues (yet).
It is at least worth looking at what the risks of not vaccinating are before dismissing it. Beyond shingles, the greater risk is in not catching the disease as a child. Adult males have the worst symptoms, but the greatest danger is to the unborn children of unexposed women who contract chicken pox while pregnant. Birth defects are quite common in such cases.
Therefore, purposefully exposing your children to chicken pox would be the next best option after vaccination. Even in the days before vaccination, this was not a sure prospect, given the nature outbreaks. Assuming that other people are taking your non-vaccinating option, it would be responsible of you to then ensure that your children are under quarantine for the entire time that they are contagious, so that they do not cause the problems listed above.
They were fortunate to have the polio vaccine. When I was a child polio was a killer and crippler of children..A real horror if your child got it... German measles are dangerous to pregnant women. The virus can cross the blood/placenta barrier...Regular measles we all had, no side effects...
Its mumps that male children should be exposed to...If they get mumps as an adult, it causes sterility...
I had German measles (rubella) as a adult, but wasn't pregnant. Their really a mild form of measles...
My daughters 2nd daughter got shingles at the age of 3 months and was exposed to no one with chicken pox that they knew of... It was extremely painful for a baby to go through. That was a very rare occurrence...
The ladies in my prayer group, who range from 5 to 30 years older than I am, sometimes talk about shingles. It sounds dreadful.
My brother picked up a very mild case of chicken pox, and then I had it very severely when I was just over a year old.
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