Posted on 12/23/2012 12:42:44 PM PST by neverdem
AS SECTARIAN VIOLENCE in the Middle East increases, as Iraq falls further into the orbit of Iran,as Afghanistan seems poised to hand over its corrupt democracy to terrorists and Taliban murderers, and as American interests and lives are sacrificed to the depredations of the so called Arab Spring, it might be worthwhile to take stock of what these unfolding debacles mean for neoconservatives and our attachment to democracy’s expansion.
We should begin with Iraq, where our most recent foray into democratic nation-building began.
I was, from the start of the campaign to liberate Iraq from Saddam Hussein, both a supporter of our efforts there and an actor on the ground. I first went to Iraq in the summer of 2003 as a civilian working for the Pentagon and was in Iraq for the better part of the last decade, having finally left at the end of 2010. I was certain, from the first day of Shock and Awe, that the war was good and that our planting the seeds of democratic rule in that part of the world was very good. Because I tended to believe that all people yearn for freedom and deserve to govern themselves,I thought that what we were attempting was good for Iraq and all Iraqis. Moreover, because I looked forward to seeing a democratic nation rise out of the ruins of a Ba’athist tyranny, I thought we were surely raising up a future international friend, perhaps even an ally for America...
(Excerpt) Read more at scribd.com ...
Too sanguine a view of democracy. A republic (or even a constitutional monarchy) with a mixed constitution containing both democratic and anti-democratic (and republican in the latter case) elements will work fairly well in civilized and moral societies. Democracy, not so well.
>> See the end of the movie “Lawrence of Arabia”
It was written?
>> Or do you think Iraq’s “democracy” is different since he
Which ‘he’?
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Not so. There is a powerful counterexample in Kemalist Turkey, which maintained a stable, secular state for 90 years -- longer than the Soviet Empire -- among the Moslems of Turkey, who 400-600 years earlier under the Islamist sultans, had been the edge of the blade of the Sword of Islam and had fought their way to the gates of Vienna.
Another example would be the secular, socialist, Arab-nationalist state that ruled Egypt from the end of World War II to last year. There, Arab women feared no religious police, did not wear the veil, and did not fear rape by self-righteously misogynistic Arab men.
Not hardly. In Iraq and Afghanistan, we demonstrated a simple proposition that needed to be propagated throughout the Fuzzy-Wuzzy Delirium Continuum's network of state sponsors: Dabble in terrorism, and we will pick a fight with you, come halfway around the world, stomp your guts, and kill you.
The Chinese need to see the hazard of pushing that "borrowed knife" stuff themselves. They're next AFAIC.
No, it isn't. In the time of the Mahdi and his original Fuzzie-Wuzzies, the government of Egypt was just as Moslem as he was, and they were not drooling hordes. Neither are the Kingdoms of Morocco and Jordan, and neither are Qatar and Oman. Saying that "they're all like that" concedes valuable ground to the Fuzzies that they don't deserves, and it distorts our own vision of the region.
And I haven't even mentioned Indonesia, where "radical Islam" is far less a force than in the Hijaz. Other than the Bali bombing 10 years ago, they've basically done squat.
The constitution is what ensures freedom within our Democratic Republic.
Straight democracy like the commies push, is the rule of the mob. The mobs in the Middle East are Muslim. The constitution they adopted is the state’s and the mob’s permission of oppression.
Were these people who were cheering on “democracy” in Egypt for real? How dang stupid can you be! This is the most basic knowledge of government and history. It’s quite clear these muslims had dicators who supressed them because they are murderous camel humpers when in power.
And a fond memory in our own history.
Disagree.
Turkey and Egypt may have displayed a veneer of secularism, but Islamic extremism was always near the surface.
For instance, the Armenian Genocide (at least 1 million Christians murdered) took place barely 5 years before Turkey “transformed” itself.
Most disturbing today, Prime Minister Erdogan, in power now for more than ten years, has steered Turkey closer and closer to Islamic Law, and he received almost 50% of the vote in his last election.
Egypt, in my opinion, has been even less secular than Turkey.
You can't turn on Egyptian TV, at any hour, without finding at least one channel broadcasting an anti-Semitic rant.
Coptic Christians are being systematically terrorized by Muslim mobs.
Anwar Sadar was murdered by Islamic fanatics.
And President Morsi, an unabashed Islamist who recently tried to seize dictatorial powers, received more than 50% of the vote in what is widely believed to have been a free and fair election.
I agree - if “we” means Republicans.
Al Gore came within a few hundred votes of being President on 9-11.
I seriously doubt that Gore would have launched a full scale invasion of land locked Afghanistan and deposed the Taliban.
I absolutely do not believe that Gore would have invaded Iraq.
And I absolutely do not believe that Obama would fight the Chinese or any Chinese surrogate.
Yup.
A corrupt people cannot rule themselves. They will vote for whoever promises to steal the most from the productive for the benefit of the unproductive. This is how the Roman Republic died. This is how America is dying.
A corrupt people must be ruled with an iron fist, if only to protect them from their own passions, greed, and stupidity. Democracy is unworkable in the Arab world.
The key term is NEO. Dumb as a box of rocks liberal. One degree removed from communists. That degree is Israel and only Israel.
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