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Don't let Florida fall for the big con (Anti Convention of States fear tactics here)
National Association for Gun Rights ^ | 03/20/2015 05:03:38 am | Dudley Brow

Posted on 03/20/2015 7:25:15 AM PDT by GILTN1stborn

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To: Gaffer
If you are interested in Article V history:

Part I
Part II
Part III
Part IV
Part V
Part VI

41 posted on 03/21/2015 3:03:35 AM PDT by Jacquerie (Article V. If not now, when?)
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To: Sen Jack S. Fogbound; GILTN1stborn
Your gun group may be kept out of it due to your attitude

Well, maybe comments, thoughts, and behind the scenes actions like you describe above are what he's afraid of, too. My concern is over one of "who will watch the watchers?" To put it in a more relevant context, "who watches the organizers and deciders of the CoS?" How were they chosen?

It is easy to say there'll be safeguards, rules, decorum and consensus about what's to happen, but I can't help but to think about that line "the most careful of battle plans are thrown out the window when the first shot is fired." I am disillusioned about it because you rarely, rarely can find someone nowadays in government, politics, or conservative activism that actually does what they say they will do.

A case in point for me is the recent expose about the actual candidate donation rates (% to candidates) of the top Tea Party sentiment/affiliated PACs. Frankly, they are embarrassing and disgusting IMO, and they certainly don't give me good reason to believe in the best hopes of a CoS.

42 posted on 03/21/2015 3:12:03 AM PDT by Gaffer
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To: Jacquerie

Yet all these background foundational explanations result in one paragraph. In the end, only that one paragraph is operative.


43 posted on 03/21/2015 3:16:43 AM PDT by Gaffer
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To: Gaffer
Article V makes possible that which was impossible under the British constitution. It not only acknowledges an option other than slavery or revolution, but put to paper in our governing document, from the Declaration of Independence, man's natural right to alter their government.

The Framers’ process was intended to make the natural right of the people to suggest changes fairly easy to achieve.

However, changes should not be made lightly. That is why three-fourths concurrence is a wise and high bar.

44 posted on 03/21/2015 3:16:51 AM PDT by Jacquerie (Article V. If not now, when?)
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To: Gaffer

You explained far more of yourself than you know.


45 posted on 03/21/2015 3:20:50 AM PDT by Jacquerie (Article V. If not now, when?)
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To: Jacquerie

I understand and agree with the spirit of a CoS. I just don’t think I have much hope for it. This country can’t even come to grips with the likes of Ferguson and its aftermath and the basic problem it represents. Couple this one thing with all the others of the tyranny we call government now, and I just think some very nasty unintended things could happen.

I don’t want to stop a CoS, but I don’t want to have rainbows blown up my keester about how this and how that will go, either.

I’ll shut up now and go my way. If it (CoS) does happen, I’ll certainly hope for the best. :0)


46 posted on 03/21/2015 3:21:12 AM PDT by Gaffer
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To: Jacquerie

There’s no need to get personal and snide. I haven’t done anything of the sort with you.


47 posted on 03/21/2015 3:22:09 AM PDT by Gaffer
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To: Gaffer

You don’t wish to learn. I view it as factual, not personal.


48 posted on 03/21/2015 3:25:19 AM PDT by Jacquerie (Article V. If not now, when?)
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To: Jacquerie

So, you as one of the CoS proponents would likely be a participant, and you, given your assessment and dismissal of my concerns would be perfectly content to “keep people like me” out. There was another poster here who voiced that same thought at another here who had CoS concerns.

The problem with CoS proponents is that there is a lot of talk, supposition, ‘background’ on something that has never happened before ‘all going according to some master plan’.

Attack those concerned seems to be the order of the day it seems. Good tactic. It works well with Democrats.


49 posted on 03/21/2015 3:34:22 AM PDT by Gaffer
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To: Gaffer

And your solution is? There is nothing wrong with having discussions about the good, the bad and the ugly. However, other than the suggestions for revolution, where are the alternate solutions that are also Constitutional? The founders gave us Article V for good reasons.


50 posted on 03/21/2015 8:19:39 AM PDT by GILTN1stborn ( #rememberbenghazi #extortion17 #impeachobama)
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To: GILTN1stborn

I’m done on this topic. You guys go on off and do it now.

The founders gave us a Constitution and system that is premised on the basis of having honest men implement it. We do not have that now. Our Constitution, laws, and mores have been assaulted continually for several decades by the most vile and evil people imaginable and have been used against us to no good end. To expect a pristine process like Article V to occur with no interference is folly.

Nevertheless, good luck to you. I hope it works out like you envision.


51 posted on 03/21/2015 8:39:15 AM PDT by Gaffer
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To: Jacquerie
The state delegates are going to try and get the most money possible from the feds. The state delegates work for politicians. You can not separate the "politicians" part from this and that's the fatal flaw with Article V conventions. These won't be tea party folks voting at all. These will be insider hacks, consultants, and friends of DEM-E and GOP-E.

In a lot of cases, up to half of the state budget money is actually federal matching funds. How the feds get their tentacles into state matters is by the promise of money. The reason we had a federal speed limit was due to federal matching funds. States can balance their budgets and spend without raising their state taxes due to this. They are happy. People in the states are happy. They don't need to know the details.

In the end if Article V passes, you'll see possibly two scenarios. One is enough sides team up in a turf war and roll over another side. It's possible. The other is to make deals to avoid a turf war and loot the federal treasury the same or more as it is now. (But it's a balanced budget - well, more taxes then. The delegates don't have to face the people - ever)

52 posted on 03/21/2015 9:12:28 AM PDT by Darren McCarty (Mike Pence in 2016)
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To: Gaffer
A case in point for me is the recent expose about the actual candidate donation rates (% to candidates) of the top Tea Party sentiment/affiliated PACs. Frankly, they are embarrassing and disgusting IMO, and they certainly don't give me good reason to believe in the best hopes of a CoS.

I refuse to donate to any national group that claims to speak for the tea party. They aren't tea party. They are noise machines who collect money, spend it on themselves, and rarely help candidates. The only national group I've seen do ANYTHING is Americans for Prosperity.

Now many of the local tea party groups don't have much money and do good work with the money they have. They also actually give a damn about the issues like we do.

53 posted on 03/21/2015 9:18:33 AM PDT by Darren McCarty (Mike Pence in 2016)
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To: Gaffer

Article V is written in 18th Century legalese. My explanation is written in modern English. No suppositions, just explication.


54 posted on 03/21/2015 10:15:18 AM PDT by Publius ("Who is John Galt?" by Billthedrill and Publius now available at Amazon.)
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To: GILTN1stborn

Bkmk


55 posted on 03/21/2015 10:28:00 AM PDT by AllAmericanGirl44
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To: Gaffer

I agree with much of what you say, except the founders did understand that there was and would continue to be, evil in the world. That’s why they wrote the Constitution the way they did. I do not believe anyone expects the process to be pristine and easy. In fact, I think it will dangerous, difficult and very ugly. The left will come out in full force to attack us. They will use the IRS, NSA, DOJ, HSA and thuggery to threaten and silence patriots. Our state represenatives that have stepped up to this effort already know this. They do not put forward this effort lightly. I will support them and pray because I think, that in light of the widiots (wuss+idiot) and the leftists in DC, it is our best last chance before we go the way of Rome.


56 posted on 03/21/2015 10:39:40 AM PDT by GILTN1stborn ( #rememberbenghazi #extortion17 #impeachobama)
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To: Darren McCarty

I have logged many volunteer hours with AFP in addition to some other smaller grass roots groups. I try to be so careful where I donate my time and money. That is why I was upset about NAGR.


57 posted on 03/21/2015 10:49:11 AM PDT by GILTN1stborn ( #rememberbenghazi #extortion17 #impeachobama)
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To: GILTN1stborn
I recently began looking into the NAGR & Dudley Brown. I was also amazed at the organization's strong opposition to an Article V Convention. There is no real connection between an Convention of the States and the Second Amendment. And it is absurd to think that a Convention of the States would be convened to overturn the Bill of Rights or the Second Amendment. I also recently ran across a quote from Dudley Brown that shocked me, His statement was on another political issue unrelated to the Second Amendment. You will have to forgive me because I do not recall that quote now; however, I had the same type of reaction that you are having. You would not find a more ardent supporter of the Second Amendment than me. I am a lifetime member of the Gun Owners of America and I would recommend that you explore their website and then decide about joining our organization in order to support the Second Amendment. I hope that that helps you.
58 posted on 04/18/2015 8:54:42 AM PDT by Q-ManRN (Progressivism is regressive!)
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To: Q-ManRN
Thank you. Neither Dudley nor the Florida NAGR rep, Killian, will answer my emails. They were looking for volunteers for the Lakeland gun show last week and I received a request to volunteer. They will never pick us again, but the emails continue. What they do at the gun shows is gather emails from people who are told that by providing email they will be entered into a monthly drawing for guns. Supposedly. There are bad apples and dummies in every organization. But this Dudley guy (and I doubt if that is his real name), is out of line and with leaders like that, I can only hope they go down the tubes.
59 posted on 04/19/2015 7:06:56 PM PDT by GILTN1stborn ( #rememberbenghazi #extortion17 #impeachobama)
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