Posted on 10/05/2017 2:50:12 PM PDT by Kaslin
By now, you all know the news, the National Rifle Association is asking for a federal review of bump stocks that use recoil to increase the rate of fire for a semiautomatic weapon. It doesn’t convert the firearm into an automatic weapon, however, which I’ve seen some politicians and pundits say over the airwaves. That’s false. Stephen Gutowski of the Washington Free Beacon had a good description of the bump stock accessory:
You see, bump firing is a shooting technique which enables a shooter to repeatedly engage the trigger of a semi-automatic firearm, utilizing the assistance of the recoiling produced by each gun shot, to fire at a much higher rate than what can be accomplished by squeezing the trigger normally. A bump-fire stock can be used to facilitate this technique. However, what many reporters have missed and many more are likely to miss in the coming days, bump firing can easily be performed on many semi-automatic rifles without any modification or special accessory.
Bump fire stocks don't actually make the gun fully-automatic. Instead, they use recoil to increase how quickly the trigger can be pulled.— Stephen Gutowski (@StephenGutowski) October 3, 2017
They increase the fire rate well above what normal semi-automatic rifles are capable but not quite to fully-automatic rates.— Stephen Gutowski (@StephenGutowski) October 3, 2017
This is the first instance that I'm aware of where a bump fire stock has been used in a crime. Very shocking.— Stephen Gutowski (@StephenGutowski) October 3, 2017
I've fired with a bump fire stock before. They're basically novelty items used for recreational shooting.— Stephen Gutowski (@StephenGutowski) October 3, 2017
He also added that it’s mostly used for recreational shooting, and that they’re rarely if ever used in gun crimes save for the tragic shooting in Las Vegas. Still, the fact remains, mass shootings are rare, they don’t constitute the majority of gun crimes, and rifles and shotguns are also rarely used to commit such crimes. Handguns are the biggest offender, though there is zero appetite to ban them and for good reason; it would be political suicide.
Big: "The NRA believes...[bump stocks] should be subject to additional regulations." pic.twitter.com/jbIKJPZnJl— Alex Seitz-Wald (@aseitzwald) October 5, 2017
Here’s what the NRA released earlier today (via Politico):
“The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations,” NRA CEO Wayne LaPierre and Executive Director Chris Cox added in a joint statement.
The influential gun lobby, which often stifles any legislation that can be interpreted as curbing Second Amendment rights, has suggested to Hill Republicans and Trump administration officials that they would prefer a new rule or regulations from ATF over what they worry will be hastily pieced together legislation on Capitol Hill.
The NRA’s willingness to consider such restrictions is significant. The powerful group has long opposed any changes that restrict gun and ammunition purchases.
White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said Thursday that the administration is “open to” reviewing policy on bump stocks.
Yet, this has all been reviewed before. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives reviewed bump stocks in 2010, in which they said the accessory developed by Slide Fire “has no automatically functioning mechanical parts or springs and performs no automatic mechanical function when installed.” The reason this has been underreported possibly: it was green lit under the Obama administration. Also known as the era of good feelings with the news media (via CNS News):
On June 7, 2010 -- about a year and a half into the Barack Obama administration -- the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives issued an opinion letter, giving the go-ahead to an after-market accessory that allows the user to “bump fire” a semi-automatic rifle.
[...]
The device replaces the factory stock and grip. The replacement stock moves back and forth with the gun's recoil, allowing it to fire rapidly and continuously as the trigger repeatedly is bumped into the shooter’s finger. A switch allows the user to select semi-automatic fire (one shot for each trigger pull) or the more rapid “bump fire.”
According to the ATF’s June 2010 letter: “The stock has no automatically functioning mechanical parts or springs and performs no automatic mechanical function when installed. In order to use the device, the shooter must apply constant forward pressure with the non-shooting hands and constant rearward pressure with the shooting hand. Accordingly, we find that the ‘bump stock’ is a firearm part and is not regulated as a firearm under the Gun Control Act or the National Firearms Act.”
Also, you can increase the rate of fire on a semiautomatic without a bump stock:
Bumpfire stocks make bump-firing easier, but anyone can bumpfire a semi-auto rifle with a little bit of practice -- Poorly informed tweet pic.twitter.com/NLlIqULkSu— Jacob Wohl (@JacobAWohl) October 3, 2017
In short, there should be no ban or review. The federal government has already done this and approved of the accessory. It was green lit under Obama. It would be just another redundant policy. Also, it gives weight to the overall argument the Left has on firearms, and it will lead to more discussion about other bans. Bans on certain types of ammunition, high-capacity magazines, and maybe even military-looking rifles. It’s not the road Republicans, or any gun rights-supporting American or politicians should go down. There’s literally no retreat. You supported a bump stock ban, then why not a ban on high-capacity magazines? It’s an argument we don’t need to have because we’ve already won it on gun rights. Let’s not cede the high ground.
One thing that I have always adored about Free republic is the vast quantity of thoughtful and informed analysis and information about a multiplicity of subjects. I am EXTREMELY disappointed about much of the bumpfire stock controversy. Much of it sounds has though it was promulgated by the ignorant gun grabbing left.
I am a 2 tour Vietnam infantry combat veteran, and a member of the Illinois National guard for 26 years, to include service in Iraq and the first Gulf War. I was a certified Illinois State Police Firearms and Defensive tactics instructor, and a member of Special Reaction and SWAT teams. I have fired hundreds of thousands of rounds through automatic weapons of all types, belt fed and shoulder mounted, ranging from .45 caliber M-3 sub machine guns up to M2A1 40 mm twin anti-aircraft guns mounted on an M-42 self propelled anti-aircraft gun.
I am retired and spend one day a month on the rifle range shooting my AR-15 rifles. When this slide fire device was first introduced, the low cost and novelty intrigued me and I purchased one. It was a bit awkward to use at first, but in one afternoon, after a bit of practice I was able to get 90% of any length burst on a man sized target at 75 yards, which is close to the normal engagement ranges for truly effective full auto fire from shoulder mounted weapons. It is not as useful has a true selective fire assault rifle since it requires two hands to employ, but it DOES have some measure of limited tactical utility for anyone who practices with it. I never really considered this item to be a true tactical instrument, but I did appreciate the ingenuity and thought that went into turning “bump fire’ into almost as accurate a technique has I could use with a true select fire assault rifle.
The battle has been joined. The anti-gun hysterics are in full cry. They will never satisfied until they achieve near total firearm confiscation. The genie is out of the bottle. You cannot stop psychopaths employing bump fire methods unless you can repeal the laws of Newtonian physics. I realize that some sort of regulation will ensue in the wake of this horrific atrocity. But i don’t like it one damn bit.
If they do this, then they should compromise by repealing the 1986 Hughes Act which caused the prices of full auto weapons to skyrocket. There is NO REASON for a legally transferable M-16 to cost over 50,000 dollars. You can be assured that any such owner will be thoroughly vetted by the background check that would be required to purchase one.
I concur with your assessment , re slidefire stocks. I’ve had them since they were first introduced, on different platforms, AR/AK and have had about the same results as you did, re: accuracy. The people on this forum now calling for Government action, quite frankly make me sick.
Beware and be alert!!! The real target is semi-automatic rifles and pistols.
I just have to keep telling myself how much worse it would be with a President Hillary and/or a Democrat congress. We are still giving things up and getting nothing in return but, perhaps, we aren’t giving up as much as we might be otherwise. Still, I see RINOs taking a knee on the field and letting Dems have a free touchdown and I’m going to remember their names come election time-especially if 2 years have gone by and national concealed carry reciprocity hasn’t passed.
PS: And next, all guns. Browning’s first machine gun was made from a lever-action Winchester, that operated like his later “potato-digger” machine gun. I’ve seen semi-autos fabricated from bolt-action rifles.
99.999% of people talking about it and 99.99999999% of legislators know what a “bump stock” is.
I had a GREAT primer on the Rick Roberts (WBAP Dallas) show yesterday and today.
If someone wanted to jury rig one with a spring, some hooks, etc. they cold do so outside of the USA and sell them no problem.
Outlawing bump stocks is like outlawing brodie knobs.
They can ban them, But something like that someone can make easily. You can take a large rubber band and do the same thing.
NRA probably sees a win-win here—"Bump-fire" can be hung on Obama.
It will give all congress critters a feel good piece to hang their hats on. And in this day and age of injection molding and 3D printing, it will do absolutely nothing.
NRA’s actual statement
Despite the fact that the Obama administration approved the sale of bump fire stocks on at least two occasions, the National Rifle Association is calling on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) to immediately review whether these devices comply with federal law. The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations
I agree with the NRA statement.
Same ole crap sandwich from the NRA. Just like the RINOS they have been capitulating for the past 30 years to the give-an-inch-take-a-mile leftist. The only reason I remain a member is that it is a requirement at my favorite outdoor gun club. In a way, I feel extorted by the NRA
My Model 50 Winchester (Fudd) 12 gauge is recoil operated, not gas like a Remington 1100. The action of the gun’s kickback ejects the husk and chambers a fresh shell.
Does that make it an evil weapon of death?
We saw this same nonsense with the “plastic handgun that X-rays can’t see!” and the bogus alarm over the 5.56 M855 (or XM, `green tip’) AR rounds: “vest penetrating, cop killers!” And the dreaded ... Black Talon pistol cartridges.
The Glock can be seen on X-rays. Most hunting cartridges, esp. 30 calibers penetrate police vests (be patient, if the argument works here, they will try it again) and Winchester just changed the Black Talon’s name to `Ranger’ ... and then the left lost interest, having seen a squirrel and went away and barked at the moon.
Our grandparents liked Springfield bolt actions, while Dad would use semis and we like modern sporting rifles. Some of us like to waste ammo.
Ignore the outraged goo goos (what are they outraged about anyway? It was people like us that got shot) and they go away. Surrender and we lose. What are the NRA and GOP-e thinking? Who knows.
The NRA is going to douche out in the clutch eh?
Realize that when conceiving and planning this, this guy probably assumed there was going to be a demonrat in the whitehouse and it would garner massive amounts of new regs and restrictions.
Let’s say that it was illegal to manufacture bump stocks. How hard would it be to make a home made bump stock without using a digital printer?
full auto should not be regulated. They should be the same as any other firearm. Those of you that think it’s ok to give up and let bump fire stocks be banned have no idea how much you are going to eventually lose. What you are really banning is pulling the trigger fast. Now think about that for a minute.
We had finished serious shooting, and were just having fun bump firing them. It was relatively easy to learn.
It also made some nosy neighbor scared. Two State Troopers came sliding into my yard and bailed out with their hands on their pistols. They asked what we were shooting and we showed them. They said someone had called in and reported machine gun fire.
We all had a good laugh and the cops suggested we go a little farther out away from people. Great fun, but inaccurate as all get out. Make sure you have plenty of backstop, as you are responsible for that bullet after it leaves the barrel.
PS: I was doing it at a little range out the road. No cops this time, but a woman asked my wife if it was a machine gun.
I guess if you have never been around an MG, it might sound like one.
“My Model 50 Winchester (Fudd) 12 gauge is recoil operated, not gas like a Remington 1100. The action of the gun’s kickback ejects the husk and chambers a fresh shell.
Does that make it an evil weapon of death? ...”
No more an evil weapon of death than any other firearm. They are all “evil weapons of death” to anti-gun types, whose understanding has yet to reach a pre-modern level (they claim objects make people do stuff).
The Winchester 50 is not a recoil-operated shotgun. True recoil operation requires the barrel to move with the bolt. The first true recoil-operated shotgun was the Browning Auto 5 (copied by Remington as the Model 11, and by Savage as the 720 series): long recoil systems all (barrel and bolt go all the way back, barrel goes forward to extract/eject empty shell, bolt then goes forward to chamber a fresh shell).
After a little thought I cannot recall any short-recoil shotguns. Short recoil is the province of machine guns (Maxim, Vickers, Browning, MG-34, MG-42, Furrer, Lahti Saloranta (?) and some others), and handguns (Colt Government, Luger, Walther, Beretta etc): bolt and barrel move back a little, barrel stops, bolt continues back, extracting/ejecting empty case; bolt goes forward, chambering a fresh round and pushing barrel to forward position.
The Model 50 is a blowback action, sort of: chamber is separate from barrel and is blown back (shell inside) by gas pressure when the shotgun fires. Chamber then stops, bolt continues on back, extracts/ejects empty shell, then it goes forward, chambering a fresh shell and pushing the chamber back into its forward position.
Other common arms with a movable chamber are Colt’s Ace (also its 22/45 conversion) and Remington’s 550 rifle. Both were rimfires: The moving chamber design was used to impart sufficient energy to the bolt (slide, in the Ace) to cycle the action.
Benelli’s M1 Super 90 is often called a short recoil action but is not. Benelli themselves call it an “inertia” system or something similar. The recoil of firing compresses a short, stout, very stiff spring, which then expands, unlocking the bolt and cycling the action. Barrel is fixed.
Recoil-operated shoulder arms have been on the way out for some years; also recoil-operated machine guns. They are more costly to make, and take more maintenance to keep them running. Maintenance of a more skilled sort too.
Two of the best-known recoil-operated rifles were Remington’s Model 8 (and 81: same gun, different stock; long recoil) and Melvin M Johnson’s M1941 rifle - just about the only recoil-operated military rifle ever built. It was touted as superior to John C Garand’s M1, but was not: exploded diagrams for both the Remington 8 and the Johnson 1941 are a complex maze of little parts, and the takedown procedures make a technician dizzy.
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