Posted on 06/21/2002 6:42:36 PM PDT by RCW2001
I watched Netanyahu catch himself on TV. His immediate reaction was how good this was for US/Israel relations and how now we both could....catch..this is a tragic day for America and our sympathies...blah..blah...blah.
I know what you mean: good, fiery debate is what it's all about. It is unfortunate that so many people seem to have difficulty staying on the topics, though, and launch into personal attacks instead.
On USENET, we'd just refer such people to alt.flame. I suppose FReepMail is supposed to allow folks to "step outside" for personal attacks, but flamers seem to be unaware of it, and their tiresome posts take up far more thread real estate than I prefer.
Oh well, scroll away, I suppose...
Imal
Are you still banging that drum? What a fool you must be. It is turning out that US agencies had generalized knowledge that a big Al Qaeda or other terror attack was coming. But the info was too generalized. What evidence do you have of Israel having any more specific intelligence? The answer is none. All you have are sleazy insinuations. You hatred for Israel is warping your powers of reason or maybe you have decided to make a career of posting innuendo.
Do the Arabs subsidize your writing? Is Achmed your paymaster?
I watched Netanyahu catch himself on TV. His immediate reaction was how good this was for US/Israel relations and how now we both could....catch..this is a tragic day for America and our sympathies...blah..blah...blah.
That's your LarLied paranoia at work. You are quite a piece of work dude. Bottom line is you lied. You lied when you posted that Israel did not sympathize with the USA post 9-11. This is a lie and you know it. All can do is complain about Bob Dylan and Netanyahu because they are Jewish. Nothing a Jew can do is good enough for you. What ethnic group and religion are you?
It troubles me when I begin to agree too much with anyone else in the forums, but your observations regarding the "Israel First crowd" fit a pattern I have also seen. It's a pattern which I find disturbing, because, like others of its kind, it indicates the kind of close-mindedness that goeth before a fall.
For various reasons, I am a fan of Israel, but that does not mean I choose to ignore its warts. I think it's great when Israel does what it should, like defend itself and maintain some of the best intelligence and military units in the world.
But I also take umbrage when Israel does things it should not, like spy on the U.S., particularly where nuclear weapon targeting data and launch codes are concerned, as in the Pollard Spy Case. Speaking as an American, which is what I am first and foremost, and as a veteran, I think Pollard should rot in prison for the rest of his life for what he did. And Israel's role in that villainous scandal should never be forgotten.
I am also quite convinced that Israel does spy on the U.S., and vice versa. This is not unusual: America spies on everyone, friend and foe alike. That Israel does so, too, should not be controversial. However, there are boundaries that should not be crossed (as in the Pollard Case), and hopefully they are being respected.
There are many bogus sagas circulating about Israelis, the Jews, "ZOG", ad nauseum, that have no basis in fact and are intended to further some bigoted agenda or another. There are also true stories to be told, as well. All deserve scrutiny and, ideally, earn credit or discredit based on their merits, rather than preconceptions. I urge everyone, whether "pro-Israel" or "anti-Israel" to focus on facts rather than fiction -- or at least identify fiction when presented.
This is the challenge of objectivity that each of us faces when we hit the forums, and that is what I look for when I come here.
Imal
What do you think about the non-cooperation? Had I been picked up after seeing 9/11 happen, I would have given the FBI my life history, offered to take a polygraph--I would have volunteered to do anything they wanted so they could rule me out and find the people who killed thousands of Americans.
But these Israelis jerked our FBI around. They wasted a lot of law enforcement resources which could have been used to hunt down Muslim terrorists. Why?
The reason for my post is just to assure you that there are Freepers out there (like myself) who are willing to look at the facts and come to independent and verifiable conclusions from those data specifics.
Sadly there are many Freepers who see any thread that tries to allege any wrong doing by the state of Israel as a wickedly evil, despicable, reprehensible and untrue assertion posted by a person who is not only disreputable but also probably affiliated with some anti-Semitic pro-Arab Neo-Nazi secret cabal that is out to discredit Israel! To them Israel can do no wrong…..and anyone who says otherwise is not only sadly mistaken but deserving of active flaming and cursing (eg nazi, anti-Semite, conspiracist ad infinitum).
Which is strange since I consider myself pro-Israel. However I refuse to obscure any wrongdoings by the state of Israel just because I support them! Associating yourself with another nation does not mean one should become blind to any wrongdoings by that nation.
actually that reminds me of a recent thread on the USS Liberty that was attacked several decades ago by Israeli jets…where scores of American sailors died and many more injured. The funny thing about that thread was that there were several posts that were quite weird since they seemed to put Israel above America in terms of importance (which is alright if you are Israeli but not if you are an American citizen). And the strangest thing I read was this Freeper flame another person for even posting the thread…..and another Freeper who said words I will never forget: that he was ‘proud of Israel for attacking the USS Liberty because it showed the guts of Israel to go as far as attack an American ship!’
Now, the issue that concerned me was not really the USS Liberty affair (since sadly it happened so long ago the whole matter has been more or less forgotten), but that there were Americans out there who supported Israel so much they were even proud of it when it killed their fellow Americans! I do not know whether to call such Freepers sycophants, or maybe confused, or even possibly traitorous….but it shocked me that there were those who would not even for one moment consider that there may be some Israelis out there who may not view America in a very good light! For goodness sake we know there are Americans who are willing to do harm to their own country….and if that is the case why not Israelis who are not American citizens in the first place?
I wish all Freepers would reach a stage of development where they would judge a thread by its merit and factual evidence instead of jumping to conclusions, visceral reactions and vitriol. It seems that there are a lot of Freepers who think anything posted against Israel is automatically anti-Israel and anti-semitic, and bankrolled by some desert Sheik!
Ai yi yi! How come common sense is not that common!
Supporting school choice and dismantling the NEA have been at the top of my agenda on this forum. Few people in America have done more to advance that goal than Mark Levin. He is a great patriot.
The history of the Cold War and exposing the liberals who supported communism is another interest of mine. David Horowitz is leading that battle. For the intregrity he has shown and the abuse he has suffered, David is a conservative icon.
Stopping the attacks on Christians by groups such as the ADL and the Simon Wiesenthal Center is, I believe, vital if we are to have a civil society. Rabbi Daniel Lapin is a hero for the work he has done in that field.
You see, Dennisw, I am not a socialist. I do not view people as a group. I view people as individuals. When Bob Dylan writes a song defending the Rosenberg traitors and bashing my county for executing the criminals, I have no respect for Bob Dylan. And, I must add, I have no respect for those who defend people merely because they belong to the same race, religion or have the same ethnic background. That is morally bankrupt and destructive to a free society.
It is insulting that people bandy that term around so carelessly, especially those who wouldn't know a Nazi if it bit them in the ass. The REAL Nazis dragged Germany out of its post-WWI nightmare and plunged it -- and the rest of the world -- into new horrors that were infinitely worse. They remain, for those willing to learn the lessons, as a terrifying example of what happens when a cult becomes a government.
I read your posts. You have your opinions, but I have yet to see you spout Nazi slogans, and don't expect to.
But these Israelis jerked our FBI around. They wasted a lot of law enforcement resources which could have been used to hunt down Muslim terrorists. Why?
That's the $64,000 question. I find it hard to believe these guys were nothing more than ignorants abroad, but it is possible. Their non-cooperation might have been based on the advice of attorneys, or, again, simple ignorance. It's possible the FBI and other three-letter agencies kept them so long simply because they were busy but didn't want to let these guys go before squeezing them a little. There are many possibilities, but the Israeli cover story is hard to buy in light of everything.
Sensationalistic as this article is, there is still enough there to raise reasonable concerns about these Israelis and what they were really doing here. I truly hope more info comes out about this and several other puzzling cases that surround 9/11.
The only thing I'm sure of is that the whole story is not public, and probably never will be.
Imal
That is a pretty good bet unfortunately.
You mean Jersey? Do you know how many people live within view of that skyline? Several millions. A coworker of mine stood on the rooftop of his Greenwich Village apartment, snapping photographs of the towers burning and collapsing, which he later sent to all his buddies. (He had just been layed off from Cantor Fitzgerald, incidentally, so he viewed the scene with mixed emotions, I imagine). Mind you, he isn't Jewish, so I suppose there's no question of foreknowledge in his case, eh?
As for the USS Liberty, "amen" as well. I have my perspectives and doubts, but no one should ever doubt that my heart and loyalty is with my fellow Americans and its captain, who received the Congressional Medal of Honor for his actions on that day. Those who would advocate or justify a deliberate attack on a US naval vessel in any way is not only my enemy, but an enemy of the United States. Based on what I have read from several different sources, I think the attack was accidental, but I still sometimes wonder.
In any case, I agree that knee-jerk, overly defensive (or offensive) replies to controversial posts should be superseded by more introspective approaches.
Imal
I do think so. Anything posted against Israel is automatically anti-Israel, indeed. Do you suggest that some anti-Israel posts are actually pro-Israel? How can it be?
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