Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Oldest Swords Found In Turkey (3,300BC)
Discovery Channel ^ | 3-25-2003 | Rossella Lorenzi

Posted on 03/30/2003 4:37:06 PM PST by blam

Oldest Swords Found in Turkey

By Rossella Lorenzi, Discovery News

March 25, 2003 — The most ancient swords ever found were forged 5,000 years ago in what is today Turkey, according to Italian archaeologists who announced the results of chemical analysis at a recent meeting in Florence.

Digging at Arslantepe, a site in the Taurus mountains of southeast Anatolia, Marcella Frangipane, professor at the department of historical science, archaeology and anthropology of antiquities of Rome University, found nine swords dating back to about 3,300 B.C.

Blade and hilt were cast in one piece; moreover, three swords were beautifully inlaid with silver.

"Their length ranges from 45 to 60 cm, and this leaves no doubt about their use. They predate of 1,000 years the most ancient swords found in Alaca Hoyuk, still in Turkey," Frangipane told Discovery News.

Analysis of the arsenic-copper alloys indicated great metallurgy skills. When forging the swords, arsenic was used as a deliberate alloying element in order to change the properties of copper and produce a stronger metal.

The swords were found in a large, palace-like complex, along with eleven lance tips, made of the same alloys, driven into a wall.

Dating from 3,350-3,000 B.C., the complex represents the most ancient administrative palace in the Near East.

"In Mesopotamia there are several temple areas, but only at Arslantepe we found a complex with connected buildings, storerooms, and decorated walls. A storeroom contained hundreds of mass-produced bowls, probably used to distribute food to workers," Frangipane said.

The archaeologists also found 2,000 clay lumps, or sealings, which worked like receipts when the contents of bags, jars, and sacks were taken out. Archived and disposed, the sealings made up an administrative and accounting system which worked without any writing but established one of the first examples of bureaucracy.

The swords and the lances were not some accidental findings. Frangipane and her team found other weapons, including another sword, in a royal tomb built right after the destruction of the palace in about 3,000 B.C. It contained a fortune in copper, silver and gold.

"This tomb is not important simply for its weapons and precious metals, but for the detailed insight it can give into the events which destroyed this center. Through the work of Frangipane's team, we can understand, as closely as one can in prehistory, the actions and decisions of people who transformed societies," Henry Wright, professor of anthropology at the University of Michigan and a leading scholar in the study of complex societies and the emergence of civilizations, told Discovery News.

"I believe this is the best work known being done on an early state administrative center in southwest Asia," he said.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: anatolia; ancienthistory; archaeology; blacksea; blackseaflood; cranberrysauce; cuneiform; found; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; grandcanyon; greatflood; history; noah; noahsflood; oldest; stuffing; swords; turkey

1 posted on 03/30/2003 4:37:06 PM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: blam
The way they've behaved lately, they could fall on a couple of them.

Kidding..slightly.
2 posted on 03/30/2003 4:38:26 PM PST by wardaddy (G-d speed our fighters!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam

3 posted on 03/30/2003 4:40:31 PM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam
Ironically, the swords were accompanied by a note requiring $30 Billion in loan guarantees before the swords would be used.
4 posted on 03/30/2003 4:40:43 PM PST by PrairieFire
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam
It's a good thing Hans Blix isn't an archaeologist, no swords would have been found.
5 posted on 03/30/2003 4:42:02 PM PST by xJones
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam
I had an opportunity to vist a museum while in Antalya Turkey. The had a wonderful collection of coins that covered the various cultures that have lived in that area over the centuries. A remarkable find of ancient coins were unearthed by a farmer plowing his field.
6 posted on 03/30/2003 4:47:02 PM PST by csvset
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: csvset
They are shishkebab skewers :-)
7 posted on 03/30/2003 5:03:24 PM PST by Leo Carpathian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: blam
"The swords were found in a large, palace-like complex, along with eleven lance tips, made of the same alloys, driven into a wall. "

Most likely visited by David and Saul

8 posted on 03/30/2003 5:03:34 PM PST by freedom9
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam
Bump
9 posted on 03/30/2003 5:06:06 PM PST by Fiddlstix
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam
Nine swords/ Nine rings, ancient times, oh my God!!! We are all gonna die if Frodo doesn't come through.
10 posted on 03/30/2003 5:08:22 PM PST by Porterville (Screw the grammar, full posting ahead.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: freedom9
Saul and David come along about 1020 BC(E). That's only 3017 years ago. This doesn't mean they didn't visit such a place, of course. However, it would have been nearly 2,000 years old even in their day!
11 posted on 03/30/2003 5:14:44 PM PST by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: blam
archaeological bump
12 posted on 03/30/2003 5:21:39 PM PST by LiteKeeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam
I guess the guys who made the swords were a little older than the Hittites. There had to be somebody else in eastern Anatolia for the Hittites to fight, before they could become a military culture.
13 posted on 03/30/2003 5:23:23 PM PST by jimtorr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: muawiyah
Was just kidding :)
14 posted on 03/30/2003 5:30:13 PM PST by freedom9
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: blam
Throughout the Mideast there flourished many advanced civilizations before Mohammed's death cult evolved.
15 posted on 03/30/2003 5:33:08 PM PST by struwwelpeter (Pozovi menya na zakate dnya pozovi menya tikho po imeni pozovi)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: struwwelpeter
too cool, I love this stuff.
16 posted on 03/30/2003 5:58:33 PM PST by FastCoyote
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: blam
The world's oldest nuclear weapons have been found in the united States.
17 posted on 03/30/2003 6:01:35 PM PST by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty" not the "Statue of Security.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: jimtorr
"I guess the guys who made the swords were a little older than the Hittites. There had to be somebody else in eastern Anatolia for the Hittites to fight, before they could become a military culture. "

(Proto-Celtics?)

Gene flow and Indo-Europeans

Date: Sat, 08 Jul 1995 07:36:17 Gene flow and Indo-Europeans
From:
Subject: Gene flow and Indo-Europeans

H. M. Hubey has made readers of this list aware of an interesting article which appeared in the June 24, 1995, issue of Science News concerning evidence from DNA data indicating a gene flow from Anatolia into Europe beginning around 9,000 years BP. Hubey also points out that there is genetic evidence that nomads from the central Eurasian Yamna culture spread westward into Europe approximately 5,500 years ago.

While it is indeed reasonable to link the first migration with the spread of agriculture, it does not follow that those who migrated spoke any form of Indo-European ("Pre-", "Proto-", or dialects thereof). Nor does it follow that "[i]t is possible that both expansions were responsible for the spread of different subfamilies of Indo-European languages..."

We know from cuneiform records that by 3,000 BCE Anatolia was populated (at least in part, if not in full) by people speaking Caucasian languages. In eastern Anatolia, Hurrian and the later attested and closely-related Urartean were spoken. These languages have been convincingly shown by Sergej Starostin and Igor Diakonoff to be related to Northeast Caucasian. In central Anatolia, Hattic was spoken -- this was later replaced by Hittite, an Indo-European language. Diakonoff maintains that Hattic was also a Caucasian language. Finally, Diakonoff has claimed that the language spoken by the Gutians (Qutians) was a Caucasian language.

Moreover, there are no unambiguous references to Indo-European people or languages in written records from the ancient Near East until just before 2,000 BCE, and the first references are to Hittites. It is generally agreed by specialists (for example, Gamkrelidze, Mellaart, Puhvel, Steiner, among others) that the Hittites were invaders who imposed themselves upon populations speaking Caucasian languages (in particular, Hattic).

Thus, there is much stronger evidence that prior to about 2,000 BCE, Anatolia was populated by speakers of Caucasian languages than by speakers of Indo-European languages. Thus, it follows logically that if one were to attempt to correlate gene flow at about 9,000 BP from Anatolia to Europe with language spread that one would tend to think more about very early forms of Caucasian rather than Indo-European.

Allan R. Bomhard
Boston, Massachusetts

18 posted on 03/30/2003 6:02:45 PM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: blam
Oh, yes. I always forget about the Hurrian peoples, and Urartu, and Hatti. I hadn't heard about the Hittites being invaders, though.
19 posted on 03/30/2003 8:14:24 PM PST by jimtorr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: jimtorr
Ryan & Pittman in their book, Noah's Flood, (a book about the saltwater Mediterranean Sea flooding into the Black Sea), speculate that the flood 7,600 years ago caused the people around that area to migrate up all the river valleys bringing agriculture and their language with them into Europe.
Linguists have traced all the Indo-European languages to Anatolia lending support to their theory....and agriculture words were the key.
20 posted on 03/30/2003 8:45:44 PM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: blam; jimtorr
Excellent posts! Cool stuff. It's obvious that they'd been making swords for some time, given the discussion in the article about there being silver inlay on them. I''ll be interested if they find other, more primitive ones at lower levels.
21 posted on 03/30/2003 11:03:54 PM PST by zeugma (If you use microsoft products, you are feeding the beast.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam; FairOpinion; Ernest_at_the_Beach; SunkenCiv; 24Karet; 2Jedismom; 4ConservativeJustices; ...
another blast from the past.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on, off, or alter the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
The GGG Digest
-- Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

22 posted on 09/10/2004 10:58:44 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Porterville
Nine swords/ Nine rings, ancient times, oh my God!!! We are all gonna die if Frodo doesn't come through.

Call it a hunch, but if he hasn't come through in 3,000 years, I don't think he's gonna.

Time to whip out some nukes.

23 posted on 09/11/2004 2:06:45 AM PDT by uglybiker (EGO sum non taedium pardus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: xJones
"It's a good thing Hans Blix isn't an archaeologist, no swords would have been found."

LOL!! I was thinking exactly along those same lines!

24 posted on 09/11/2004 12:14:14 PM PDT by sneakers
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: blam

BTTT


25 posted on 09/11/2004 12:16:16 PM PDT by Fiddlstix (This Tagline for sale. (Presented by TagLines R US))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam

Amazing.


26 posted on 09/11/2004 12:17:52 PM PDT by hershey
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam
When forging the swords, arsenic was used as a deliberate alloying element in order to change the properties of copper and produce a stronger metal.

I wonder about the "deliberate"part?

Does he mean they actually cooked off & collected arsenic to add in measured amounts back into the fairly pure molten copper?

Or, does he mean they deliberately smelted their copper from a more/less constant mixture of copper (or other metallic) arsenates/arsenides and other copper ores? Trial & error blending of ores, noting empirical differences, then sticking to 1 part reddish rock to 5 parts shiny rock, etc?

Either way, the alloying and the inlaying speak to a long history of painfully learned craftsmanship prior to the making of these blades & points.

27 posted on 09/11/2004 8:43:02 PM PDT by ApplegateRanch (The world needs more horses, and fewer Jackasses!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ApplegateRanch
"Either way, the alloying and the inlaying speak to a long history of painfully learned craftsmanship prior to the making of these blades & points."

Yup, the 'mad-hatters' comes to mind.

28 posted on 09/11/2004 8:58:45 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: ApplegateRanch; blam
Arsenic bronze was fairly common before tin bronze became widespread. Some people suggest that the lame metal-working gods of some mythologies (e.g., Vulcan) are holdovers from an age when metal-workers worked with arsenic, which damaged their health.
29 posted on 09/12/2004 6:22:55 AM PDT by Question_Assumptions
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: blam

Due to the sad neglect of most of Turkey's museums and the rampant trade in stolen antiquities these swords do not have much of a future in Turkey unless they are protected abroad.


30 posted on 09/12/2004 8:20:34 PM PDT by eleni121 (Not all college profs are left wing unionist whackos --but most are.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson