10 years later, memories of Waco tragedy linger - fatal Branch Davidian standoff

Associated Press ^ | April 17, 2003 | Associated Press Staff

[MeekOneGOP]

10 years later, memories of Waco tragedy linger

City hopes to put fatal Branch Davidian standoff behind it

04/17/2003

Associated Press

WACO, Texas – During business trips across the country, Mayor Linda Ethridge likes to talk about Waco's small-town comforts and big-city amenities, the new programs at Baylor University and the local plant that makes Snickers candy bars.

She can name famous native Wacoans – comedian Steve Martin, author Robert Fulghum and former Texas Gov. Ann Richards among them. Ethridge will talk about the Dr Pepper Museum, honoring the soft drink created here in 1885 and the expansion project at the award-winning zoo.

She and other city leaders don't mention the 1993 standoff at a religious sect's compound that burned to the ground and left nearly 80 people dead – unless someone asks about it.

And that happens sometimes, even now.

"For some people, that association is still there," Ethridge said. "You'll have random interchanges with people, but it's a little less often."

The Branch Davidian site was some 10 miles east of the city, down a two-lane winding road through farmland and then off a dusty road. The group had been there quietly for decades but had been growing since the mid-1980s arrival of leader David Koresh.

Few in Waco even paid attention to them until Feb. 28, 1993, when federal agents tried to arrest Koresh for stockpiling illegal weapons. Four lawmen and six sect members died in the shootout following the raid, which led to a 51-day standoff.

Day after day, for nearly two months, people across the world heard about a town called Waco and saw television images of the rudimentary compound buildings rising out of the wind-swept prairie.

They saw authorities clad in cowboy hats and boots, guns slung in hip holsters. They heard late-night television comedians call the town "Wacko."

Waco Attractions

The 10 most popular tourist attractions in Waco, based on number of visitors in 2002: 1. Cameron Park Zoo: Natural-habitat zoo on 52 acres with 700 animals and 245 species. 2. Art Center Waco: Hosts art exhibitions and classes and has sculpture garden on 2.5 acres of McLennan Community College. 3. Texas Ranger Hall of Fame and Museum: Features Bonnie and Clyde's shotguns. 4. Dr Pepper Museum: Housed in the first bottling plant of the soft drink created in Waco in 1885. 5. Gov. Bill and Vara Daniel Historic Village: Includes 20 carefully preserved wood-frame buildings providing snapshots of Texas life in the 1890s. 6. Armstrong Browning Library: The world's largest collection of memorabilia of English Victorian poets Robert Browning and his wife, Elizabeth Barrett Browning. 7. Historic Waco Foundation: Four homes built in the mid-1800s and restored. 8. Texas Sports Hall of Fame: Pays tribute to some of Texas history's sports greats. 9. Earle-Harrison House: Greek Revival-style mansion is the only restored antebellum home open to the public in Waco. 10. Strecker Museum: Founded in 1856, the state's oldest continually operating museum. Source: Waco Convention and Visitors Bureau.

Then on April 19, 1993, viewers saw the inferno.

"People were watching the Branch Davidian events unfold, and it sort of engraved that association to Waco in the minds of many people," said Ethridge, who was elected to the City Council in 1993 and mayor in 2000. "And a lot of that played to existing stereotypes: It was Texas, there were guns and it involved religion."

Many of Waco's 113,000 residents say it's an unfair association because the incident was outside city limits and involved federal agencies.

"Do they associate airplane crashes with the city where it happened?" said Joe T. Hayward, 81, a retired professor. "What bothers me are people who don't look at the facts and associate anything they can with a tragedy."

Some locals have little sympathy for surviving Davidians who claim the blaze was started after military vehicles rammed the buildings and sprayed tear gas inside.

A 2000 report on the final government investigation said the Davidians started the fire and shot each other – even some of the two dozen youngsters – in a mass suicide, ending the standoff.

"It was a tragedy but a tragedy that didn't have to happen, and it could have happened anywhere," Hayward said.

In the months after the compound burned, city leaders didn't notice a drop in tourism. But folks stopping by the Greater Waco Chamber of Commerce wanted to know all about the Branch Davidians and how to get to the site.

After lengthy discussions on how to handle the issue, officials decided to have maps printed.

"It's a historical event, and you can't deny it happened. If we did, we'd look like we were trying to hide something," said Jack Stewart, president and CEO of the chamber. "We really had nothing to do with it, other than geography."

As time has passed, the maps have run out, and fewer people inquire about the out-of-the-way site with no signs or markers.

Those living nearby say several hundred people stop each year at the site, which now has a one-room visitors center, some memorial plaques and a chapel built on the compound remnants. A grove of 82 trees was planted several years ago, one representing each victim, including some unborn children.

Meanwhile, city officials have been busy touting Waco as a neighbor to President Bush, who several times a year visits his 1,600-acre ranch about 20 miles away in Crawford.

Because Crawford has no motels and few restaurants, the media and those traveling with Bush must stay in Waco – where city officials have seized what they call a golden opportunity to showcase hometown hospitality.

Each time Bush goes to his "Western White House" or appears in Waco, the Chamber of Commerce distributes media kits containing a calendar of events, list of restaurants and information on laundry and other services. The chamber even sets up a hot line for the visiting media to call with questions day or night.

Now, reporters seem interested in finding out about Waco's history and attractions, and they rarely bring up the Branch Davidian standoff, Stewart said.

"We've been fortunate," he said. "We felt strongly that the president's residence would have a positive impact on Waco's image, and that's happened." –––

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Online at: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dallas/tsw/stories/041703dntexwaco.10ec0.html

[The Lake City Gar]

Yeah...It's too bad that little Shari there had government hating FREAKS for parents who worshiped an even BIGGER government hating FREAK who was probably having perverted sex with her up until the day he forced her to be BURNED TO DEATH in his name, rather than just simply walking out the door to safety. LIKE OTHER PEOPLE BEFORE THEM HAD DONE!!!

You know...All those LIVE people???

I'm not surprised you're defending Koresh, you seem to have a lot in common with him. Including reveling in the deaths of innocents.

[The Lake City Gar]

Ah! Someone with a lecture on humanity who wishes other's family members dead.

I only wish apon you what YOU seem to revel-in when it happens to others.

It's COMPLETELY your call.

[AAABEST]

Actually Koresh, as whacked as he was, felt bad about the dead agents. It's documented as part of the record.

I don't feel sorry for them, any more than I feel sorry for a dead Nazi, or a dead gangster.

Innocents? I've heard some stupidity out of you but referring to those who "do" women, children and pets with gear more deadly than what I was issued in the military as "innocents" tops all. I'll put you on my "blockheads who'll say anything to make a point list". "Innocents" ....good one.

[The Lake City Gar]

Actually Koresh, as whacked as he was, felt bad about the dead agents. It's documented as part of the record.

LOL!!

Yes...So bad that he kept brain-washing his followers up until the day they all ALLOWED themselves to be burned to death and took their children with them.

Yeah...David Koresh was a great guy...Big heart. He cared about those federal agents.

[_Jim]

No matter how the media continues to try and spin it ...

Ha ha ... even Ian Goddard has debunked the 'work' done by McNutty:

http://iangoddard.net/waco.htm

Debunking the Waco FLIR

(c) 2001 Ian Williams Goddard

CONCLUSION

The Waco FLIR gunshot claim purports that federal agents machine gunned men, women, and children as they tried to escape the Waco fire. In other words, the United States government is guilty of the systematic mass murder of its own citizens -- a crime against humanity. However, as the facts above demonstrate, the alleged evidentiary basis for this most serious charge -- that the official report lists fifteen bodies shot to death near the rear exit -- is completely false. And the flashes recorded on FLIR that are said to be the gunshots killing those allegedly trying to escape do not actually resemble real gunshots. Instead, the long durations of the flashes resemble thermal reflections. Furthermore, the flashes appear on detectable pieces of reflective debris. The entire Waco FLIR gunshot/mass murder claim is a confabulated mirage built upon falsity and bad analysis.

Prior to the acquisition of empirical data about gun-muzzle flashes and thermal reflections on FLIR, and prior to detailed analyses of the contents of the Waco FLIR, it was a reasonable concern that the flashes might be gunshots directed at Mt Carmel. However, the empirical data and analyses cited in this report leave no room for doubt that the Waco FLIR flashes are thermal reflections on debris, not gunshots. Yet the gunshot claim continues to proliferate due to a concerted effort to sell videos on the topic. Unfortunately the technical nature of the subject leaves most at a loss to see the Waco FLIR gunshot claim for the hallucination that it is.

Hopefully this report will serve as a beacon of reason in a sea of misinformation.

[_Jim]

That 2000 report exonerating the gubbermint only happened because John Danforth thought he was going to get the VP nod.

A well-researched report produced by a couple of dozen well-respected experts each in their field - SOMETHING the conspiro-loon crowd apparently ignores.

What - YOU thought Danforth wrote all the research and analysis himself?

Whoa!

The full report, plus appendices can be accessed here:

http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/b10a03.html#danforth

[_Jim]

What reference to Waco at this late date would be compelte without listing this set of documetns for reference:

http://www.usdoj.gov/05publications/waco/wacotocpg.htm

Titled thusly:

Report to the Deputy Attorney
General on the Events at Waco, Texas
February 28 to April 19, 1993

and including such documents as

---

Appendix G. List of Children Released During Standoff

the following children were successfully released from 2/28/93, continuing through 3/2/93.

NUMBER		NAME				DOB			DATE RELEASED

1.		ANGELICA SONOBE - WF		01/20/87		02/28/93
2.		CRYSTAL SONOBE	- WF		08/07/89		02/28/93
3.		RENAE FAGAN	- BF		03/17/86		02/28/93
4.		NAHARA FAGAN	- BF		02/26/89		02/28/93
5.		LANDON WENDEL	- WM		01/30/89		03/01/93
6.		TAMARA WENDEL	- WF		07/23/87		03/01/93
7.		JAUNESSA WENDEL	- WF		05/23/84		03/01/93
8.		PATRON WENDEL	- WM		10/01/92		03/01/93
9.		SCOTT MABB 	- WM		09/30/81		03/01/93
10.		CHRISTYN MABB	- WF		07/21/85		03/01/93
11.		JACOB MABB	- WF		12/20/83		03/01/93
12.		BRYAN SCHROEDER	- WM		03/07/90		03/01/93
13.		JAIME MARTIN	- BM		05/31/82		03/01/93
14.		JOSHUA SYLVIA	- WM		11/07/85		03/01/93
15.		NATALIE NOBREGA	- WF		03/20/82		03/01/93
16.		JOANNE VAEGA	- WF		03/01/89		03/02/93
17.		DANIEL MARTIN	- BM		07/12/86		03/02/93
18.		KIMBERLY MARTIN	- BF					03/02/93

During 3/3/93, three additional children were released bringing the total to twenty one (21) children:

NUMBER		NAME				DOB		DATE RELEASED
19.		MARK JONES - WM			06/27/80	03/03/93
20.		KEVIN JONES - WM		01/06/82	03/03/93
21.		HEATHER JONES - WF		10/25/83	03/03/93

It is important to note that for the remainder of this siege, not one additional child was released. Negotiation team members repeatedly addressed the priority objective of affecting a total release of all remaining children. These efforts were undertaken on a daily basis, if not on multiple occasions daily, throughout each day of the siege to no avail.

It became readily apparent that KORESH had "thinned the ranks" of the children of those which he did not consider his immediate family and those that represented the direct "line of DAVID (KORESH)

---

and

---

Appendix C. List of Demands by Davidians During Standoff and FBI Responses

1.
    
2/28/93 - (14:29)
First demand: that KRLD broadcast a message that ATF is holding their fire and will not attack further.
Granted 2/28/93, 16:15 and 16:45.

2.
    
2/28/93 - (18:10)
Play recorded message of KORESH on KRLD and kids will be released two by two.
Granted 2/28/93, 19:38.

3.
    
3/02/93 - (02:34)
SCOTT SONOBE: Play KORESH'S tape on national T.V. and we will come out.
Granted 3/02/93, 13:32

4.
    
3/02/93 - (04:55)
RITA RIDDLE: Play tape during prime time and the remaining women and children will exit.
Granted 3/02/93, 13:32

5.
    
3/03/93 - (09:47)
KORESH wants 1501 telephone cord.
Granted 3/04/93, 15:20.

6.
    
3/03/93 - (13:31)
Allow KORESH to give a bible study and MARK JONES will come out.
Granted 3/03/93, 14:48.

7.
    
3/03/93 - (17:27)
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Wants dead, smelly dog removed.
Granted 3/04/93, 15:38

8.
    
3/04/93 - (23:29)
KORESH: Requests suture kit for hand.
Granted 3/05/93, 12:59.

[AAABEST]

Jim as I've told you in the past, you've got good info and make some good points. Problem is you're trying to polish a turd, something that can't be done. If people on this thread are confused by the facts it's not their fault. The facts have been tortured, misrepresented, hidden and lied about by all parties, especially the agencies who bear the responsibility for the tragedy who have a stake in not revealing the truth.

There was much evil to go around. Koresh was evil, and our government was evil as well. Heck even evil McVeigh was there. How spooky is that?

Satan had his way with America that day. For some strange pathological and pathetic reason, you continuously attempt to exonerate the evil actions taken by the BATF and others. You just can't do that.

When I say can't, I don't mean as in I don't think you should (I don't but that's not my point). I mean can't as in you won't be able to. You should change your screenname to _Jim_Quixote.

[MeekOneGOP]

bttt

[_Jim]

I mean can't as in you won't be able to.

First off, this sounds more like a self-imposed personal limitation set quite arbitrarily than a true, reality-based assessment based on a clean, open-minded review of factual information available to date.

Secondly, the unfettered creation of propaganda by McNutty in his Michael Moore-class attacks on the actual facts in his films has had devastating effcts to date. Witness McVeigh and his stated reasons for pulling off the Murrah building in OKC ...

I hold McNutty partially responsible for misleading Tim McVeigh by wanton disregard for facts and the 'reckless charges' he cast about as confetti.

As I have personnally written in the past:

Waco ... was a terrible tragedy compounded by a misunderstanding on the part of the HRT for the zeal and allegiance his (Vernon Howell's) people had for him and the 'faith' they practiced.

An initial 'raid' whose element of surprise had been lost, continued in execution with tragic loss of life on both sides culminating 51 days later in the eventual exercise of a non-explicit [Note: We now know more about the probability of a 'suicide pact' than when I originally wrote this] 'suicide-pact' carried out by Vernon Howell as a culmnation of his Armagedon scenario under pressure by the eventual and slow demolition of the Mt. Carmel by the insertion of tear gas meant to hasten the departure of the people inside but intead resulted in the 'execution' of the Armagedon suicide pact by order of Vernon Howell, a scene replete with fire designed to instill fear and turmoil into his flock such as to allow Vernon to 'guide' them unto 'his' (Vernon's) final solution ...

Both very tragic *and* very sad ...

May it never happen again.

Let the truth be told, let the truth be known, let there be "No more McVeigh's".

[sauropod]

He signed off on it.

Glad to see you are still shilling for Da Gubbermint, _Jim...

[sauropod]

Oh muh goodness! Such venom from the neo-cons.

You see, I paid attention when Waco happened. I paid attention as UpChuckie Schumer mocked anyone and everyone that held a different conclusion to the events in 1993 than he did. I paid attention to the ATF reports that said some of their agents went to the Koresh compound and shot the guns with him a couple of weeks before the Feb. assault. I paid attention to the FBI types lying their asses off. I paid attention to all the ways the Gubbermint tried to bury this (literally) as fast as possible. Including the rubble from the attack.

You see, I have seen the 1st gen. FLIR footage, including the parts of the paramilitary types (Delta Force) rolling out the ass end of a BFV during the final assault.

This is an injustice crying out for rectification. Even though I believed (and still believe) that Koresh's little group was a cult in the classic sense of the word, I cannot reconcile the reaction to the perceived threat.

This is where we part company. I wish to live free. No JBTs for me thank you very much! You neo-cons can take your moral superiority and stick it where the sun don't shine!

[AAABEST]

No Jim, it wasn't just a "misunderstanding" or some kind of mistake or misinterpretation. There was evil and ill intentions in certain people that you're trying to absolve. You can't do that no matter how hard you try, it's simply an impossible task.

IOW, you're no better than those who try to absolve Koresh's evil and hence part of the problem, not part of the solution. Bueford was Koresh's counterpart and McViegh was their offspring, and satan smiled.

[sauropod]

No sir. It is you that is hallucinating. Thermal reflections do not mimic what I saw on the FLIR records.

Ian whatshisface is lying through his teeth.

[sauropod]

_Jim's quoted authority is misrepresenting physics.

Might as well piss against the wind. _Jim has been around since the first amino acids linked up to form proteins. No amount of truth will change him. He has an agenda, but i have not figured out the reason for it in 5+ years of being an FR denizen.

[tubebender]

With all the talk about Bush's lack of diplomacy over Iraq I would say Waco represents the worst lack of diplomacy in American History...

[_Jim]

Thermal reflections do not mimic what I saw on the FLIR records.

There isn't *anybody* who has corroborated what McNutty claims - and your refusal to read the work done on this subject, the extensive comparison of visual imagery in the way of photos showing debris, insulation and glass from the many broken windows to what the "captured IR" (that's "Infra-Red") on video shows is just straight-away, sheer declared ignorance.

The duration of the 'plume' after a rifle is fired, that should have lasted less than a single video frame was examined for each 'claimed' case of gunfire BUT this duration lasted for many frames, the OBVIOUS abscence of "warm rifle barrels" (their heat signature showing up on video) was notably absent in each case of these cases as well -

- NOTHING repeat !!NOTHING!! supports McNutty's contentions of 'gunfire' in the IR video except McNutty!

Those were the conclusions of both Ian Goddard and Vector Data Systems and several other experts in the field of IR.

THERE WAS ample oportunity for *other* sources of that IR however. Such as the very warm engine of the CEV in that one scene - I have seen the video my self on that one - at it does indeed appear at the REAR of that CEV reflecting off debris on teh ground - those same scenes that show NO human beings and the CEV (the 'tank' as you guys put it) BACKING over positions OCCUPIED by so-called 'shooters' in very close quaters is absolutely preposterous - it's also NOT the case as visible still photos show.

Here is the research performed by Vector Data Systems (of course, you won't download it NOR will you examine so why do I even bother?) on the IR imagery:

http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/pdf/vds.pdf

I also noted in your reply that you responded with the usual knee-jerk supposition that the other party is simply 'lying' yet you provide nothing (BUT your afore-mentioned CONJECTURE) as 'supporing argument'.

*That* doesn't wash.

[AAABEST]

He has an agenda, but i have not figured out the reason for it in 5+ years of being an FR denizen.

Which indicates that he has some sort of stake in this, it's anyone's guess what that is. Believe it or not, I kind of like _Jim, he's not too bad of a guy when you get him away from certain issues. _Jim is a tech minded person who is obsessed with facts. His fatal flaw in all of this is that he refuses to factor certain facts into the mix, which is terrible logic and bad science. He started out with a hypothesis a long time ago and never let any variables alter the science, for whatever reason.

His whole gig on Waco is that "mistakes" were made or things could have been handled differently. He's right, but that's only half of the equation. He refuses to admit that there was some very real evil and sinful things done by those on his "side".

He can get away with that to some degree here, but he can't get away with it in the long run. It's really not good for his soul or for the resolution of this issue.

[_Jim]

You see, I have seen the 1st gen. FLIR footage, including the parts of the paramilitary types (Delta Force) rolling out the ass end of a BFV during the final assault.

No you didn't.

You saw what your brain wanted you to see.

[_Jim]

_Jim's quoted authority is misrepresenting physics.

Back that up.