Zen master (Catholic Priest) tells curious to embrace a new faith

NorthJersey.com ^ | 01.22.06 | EVONNE COUTROS

[Mr. Silverback]

Well, I'm not a scholar looking to put my words into Jesus mouth.

I certainly didn't mean you personally.

Finally, that the Gospels were written by men he personally chose, and that followed him is of no doubt. But much of the NT is written by Paul, and by others who never met Christ.

Actually, Paul and Luke are the only writers of the NT who did not know Jesus personally, and some scholars believe Luke was one of the disciples who followed Him but was not one of The Twelve. Since Luke's accounts in Acts are mostly of events he witnessed himself and the original disciples are mentioned extensively, it's a sure bet he wasn't putting anything out that they would have objected to. The other disciples accepted Paul, and Peter even accepted a rebuke from him. There's really no evidence at all that the NT or any other early Christian writings were outside the doctrines laid down by Christ while he was here.

Now, of course, Paul says God was revealed to him through a ray of light, and looking at the amount of passion he exuded forming the early church, I'm inclined to believe him. But this hints at what I meant by the religion being formed after Jesus death.

Well, not to nitpick, but Paul said Jesus appeared to him in light and they had a conversation. This conversation was witnessed by his travelling companions. As for the religion forming after Jesus' death, it's clear he intended to establish a relgion, saying to Peter "On this rock I will build my church."

In fact, if you think about it, if the Resurrection happened the men who witnessed it would guard the truth of the whole Jesus story very well. If there was no Resurrection, then Christianity is not something to be respected, but a cruel fraud. But then, what would be the motive for fraud, if these guys spent their lives poor and at least some of them died by violence?

[Lochlainnach]

I don't think Paul was necessarily "divergent" in his teachings or anything like that. For the sake of simplifying, I was just trying to separate Christ from those after who had such a monumental influence on Christianity, especially considering Paul played such an important role in the formation of a Christian church and structured system instead of one that devolved into hundreds of different sects.

You're right as far as Paul and Luke were the ones who did not know Jesus...in fact, I was basically referring only to Paul and the large amount he contributed.

Sorry about the minor inaccuracies.

[Chieftain]

Did you hear about the Buddhist vacuum cleaner? It has no attachments! Bada-bing!

I heard stories before of catholic priests who have become Buddhists, but they were stories and I never personally met one.

Many western people are fascinated with Buddhism as it looks at life through a whole different prism. I encountered the teachings of Buddha 31 years ago and they made perfect sense to me. I had been raised a catholic, went to 12 years of catholic school, whole family catholic. My catholic family came to accept me as BUddhist but ut wasn't without much anger. I never felt that way toward them, but they sure took it personal about my choice for my religion.

I saw the Buddhist teaching of Nichiren as something that brought me peace about myself. It taught me that I was able to achieve the enlightened life condition as I am. That heaven and hell were within my own life everyday, and not just something to be anticipated after death.

The eastern culture in itself is based on Buddhist teaching ranging from the early lesser vehicle in SE Asia through the later greater vehicle which followed the 'silk road' across China and into Japan. Zen is another teaching itself. I believe it from the pre-enlightenment years of the Buddha.

Like and earlier poster said, 'Jesus would have been a good Buddhist'. I agree.

[Conservative til I die]

God forbid accepting other religions as anything but blaspheme, especially those religions that preach peace and human dignity

Relax, Melvin. No one's calling Buddhism blasphemous. Simply stating that Buddhism and similar Eastern forms of thought are absolutely not compatible. Anyone who pretends they are is either looking at things very superficially or just wants to sound cool by shoehorning Christianity into the Buddhist mindset.

For any Christian - Catholic or otherwise - there are some serious problems if they feel they need to go to Buddha to augment their faith. Christ is more than sufficient.

[Conservative til I die]

I wonder how many young minds he poisoned while chairman of St. Peter's College Theology Department. And those poor parents thinking they were sending their children to a "catholic" college only to have wasted their money.

Par for the course from the Jesuits. Being Jesuit-educated myself, I now recall the retreat where we passed each other the consecrated pita bread. That and taking yoga as my senior-year Theology elective.

I did enjoy the trip to the local Central Baptist church for my comparitive theology class. Until they hit me, 15 years old, up with a request for a $20 donation. Heh.

But more seriously, the Pope needs to suppress the Jesuit order.

[Conservative til I die]

Ratzinger told a news conference that the document was not condemning Eastern meditation practices, but was elaborating on guidelines for proper Christian prayer

Exactly. I have no quarrel with much of anything a non-Catholic does, but I cannot imagine why any faithful Catholic would feel the need to incorporate Buddhism into their faith.

[Conservative til I die]

I do not understand how a Catholic Christian can also be a Buddhist 'master.' From what I read of the posts, this Jesuit order is outside the mainstream of Catholic Christianity (? -or do I not understand?)

You are correct, though the Jesuits are still mainstream, while not being mainstream. That is, while their views are becoming further and further at odds with the mainstream of Catholicism, they aren't a fringe cult that exists outside the mainstream of Catholicism.

They used to be a great religious order but have since succumbed to liberalism in its most outlandish forms.

[Conservative til I die]

True but in terms of instruments of prayer, they're very similar. Buddhism is also older than christianity. Some people believe that they once had contact with eachother.

Again, if one looks at the two religions in a very, very, very superficial way, and simply ignores history and historical context, one might come to this conclusion. However, Christianity in its earliest days was very clearly an outgrowth of Judaism, with Christian theology being set up in parallel and in contrast to Judaism.

The most anyone can say about a Buddhism/Christianity connection is that both teach that you should be nice to your neighbor. That's a rather tenuous connection.

[Conservative til I die]

I see where you're coming from with the assertion that Bnelson isn't "talking crap." But, for the most part, I disagree. Saying a religion like Buddhism isn't "compatible" with Christianity is just flat out wrong when one takes a look at the trials of Buddha and Christ

But they're simply not compatible. No question about it. First off, there's this whole "Jesus is God" thing. Jesus wasn't just some zen master, wise man, or righteous hippie.

Simply put, one cannot be a Catholic (or legitimate Christian) and be a good Buddhist at the same time, any more than one can be a Catholic and a Muslim at the same time.

If you really think it's trash talking or offensive to say this, then you're really too thick skinned.

[Conservative til I die]

"Everything is everything."

Sounds similiar to I am what I am.

The first statement is pantheistic mumbo jumbo. The second statement is a clear expression of God's (and no one else's) omniscience.

There's a rather meaningful difference between "Everything" and "I".

[Conservative til I die]

How would you explain to someone that Jesus was Almighty God. I do not see this done very much in the RCC as much as I see it in evangelical churches.

The first portion of the Nicene Creed, our most basic statement of faith, which is recited at every Catholic Mass:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.

[Conservative til I die]

Both teach that what is around us is temporary, and to look beyond this world's material needs. But they have different ideas about God and the path to Heaven/Nirvana (and no, Heaven doesn't properly align with Nirvana; I do not have the words to give a proper conception).

The whole salvation/eternal life thing is kinda major, wouldn't you say?

There's a couple trivial similarities and that's it.

[bnelson44]

Part of the point of zen is to cut through our insecent inner chatter and experience life in a pure form without our usual preconceptions.

Like there is a God and he came to earth to save us if we follow his teachings?

I suggest you read the letter from the Cong for the Doc of the Faith that I linked to towards the beginning of this thread.

[siunevada]

Tradition is one thing...
Yet, I've never heard it backed up with scripture from the Bible.

Perhaps your teachers never pointed you to the source for "faith statements" such as the creeds and the Sign of the Cross:

This synthesis of faith was not made to accord with human opinions, but rather what was of the greatest importance was gathered from all the Scriptures, to present the one teaching of the faith in its entirety. And just as the mustard seed contains a great number of branches in a tiny grain, so too this summary of faith encompassed in a few words the whole knowledge of the true religion contained in the Old and the New Testaments.
St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catech. illum. 5,12: PG 33,521-524.

Or perhaps you were like me as a child, a somewhat indifferent student.

[TradicalRC]

Instead you must abandon all desires and all needs.

What about the desire for enlightenment? Or for peace? Or food? Why aren't Zen masters starving to death?

All I can say is, I'll take Christ over the "enlightened far East" any day.

[TradicalRC]

Zen is a way of dealing with the world, and more importantly the individual's place within it...especially relating how one can find spiritual peace through their actions in society.

The same can be said about any religion.

[TradicalRC]

There are connections among the great revealed religions.

"People often say that religions are fundamentally the same and superficially different. May I reverse that for you and tell you that religions are fundamentally different and at times superficially similar. If I am asked what separates Christianity from other religions, or “what’s different about Christianity, aren’t all religions the same when you get down to it,” one of the first things that I would say is bound up in one beautiful word: forgiveness."

-Ravi Zacharias

[TradicalRC]

Vietnamese Zen and Chinese Chan Buddhists are closer to mainstream Buddhism than American Zen.

It seems like Indian Buddhism sought detachment from desire; Zen Buddhism sought detachment from knowledge; and American Buddhism seeks detachment from authentic Christianity.

W.W.B.D?

[muawiyah]

Not even near what I meant ~ you are aware, of course, that Ma-Nu (Noah) is a common figure in Hinduism and Islam, and the "Great Fish" is shared by Christians and Jews, and by Hindus as well, and not just as an image, but also as a teaching tool.

The Book of Proverbs certainly found a home in many other sacred texts.

This did not happen by accident.

[jmaroneps37]

Maybe it runs in the name Kennedy. The evil one rejoyces when he snags a Catholic priest.