Posted on 02/24/2006 8:40:59 AM PST by conserv371
Right now there is huge debate going on about whether the church will go through the tribulation. After studying some passages that seem to convincingly lean toward a pre-trib rapture. First of all, Jesus in Luke 17:26, states that "And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of Man." We learn of two key individuals during that time Enoch and Noah. Enoch who some have seen as a type of the church is translated before the Flood while Noah is delivered through the world-wide judgment.
We also find in Luke 12:37-40 gives evidence it could happen at second or third watch like a thief and to be ready since the Son of man comes at an hour when you don't think He will come. Jesus further exhorts that servants may start treating fellow servants harshly and getting drunk. The lord will come in a day when he looks not for him and at an hour when he is not aware. This seems to suggest some semblance of peace since drunkeness occurs in this case with ease. In fact, the servant has said in his heart, "My lord delays in his coming"; These give the appearance of a lack of persecution going on world-wide since the servant is not watching. With persecution, there would be no time for drunkeness since people would be hiding for their lives.
James states in 5:8b "for the coming of the Lord draws near."
In I Thess. 5:2, the Apostle Paul states that "the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night." What does a professional thief do? He plunders the house without the occupants waking up until morning to find their valuables gone. Again there is calm while the robbery is taking place. Furthermore Paul states, they shall say Peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes upon them, as birth pains upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. This seems to indicate there is a them and us. Sudden destruction on them but you are not surprised. In vs. 9, 10 he states "For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. The tribulation is the wrath of the Lamb so why would the Jesus put wrath of His spiritual body after His physical body experienced God's wrath.
Also, in II Thess. we find that the Holy Spirit with whom believers are sealed with is prevent the mystery of iniquity to work fully. The Holy Spirit must be taken out of the way before the wicked one "Anti-christ" is revealed. All mention of the churches goes silent after chapter 3 of Revelation while the man of peace (Anti-christ)on the white horse shows up in Rev. 6. The last church (Laodicean church) is not looking for the rapture. Also, Christ states to the church of Philadelphia that he will keep them from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Tribulation)
No, the truth is we must watch and be ready for Christ's imminent return. I believe the rapture will be a cataclysmic event that make the world beg for a ruler of peace to calm down the world. God likes to have major events to display His power so it would seem likely that the Tribulation will begin with the vanishing of Christ's spiritual body which states in Romans 11:25 requires the fulness of the Gentiles be come in before it happens which is when God will take away the blindness of Israel. Right now, when a google search is done, one can see many people turning to christ. The harvest rate is accelerating. Jesus at Rev. 22:20 says, "Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
I’ve often thought that there’s more than one or two raptures.
I wonder if there’s a pre vs other list of Scriptures side by side.
I think I know which would be longer.
That’s not my perspective.
A number of folks have merely gone to Scripture to try and see what Scripture presented pro or con.
Actually more than a time or 3. Can't find my specific post . . .
Ahhhhhh . . . Evidently you have not read my post 92 above.
I don't think the author's language was unclear. Are you calling 306-373 A.D. recent? or at the latest 565-627 recent? That would be a new definition of recent that I'd not been familiar with. Though, I still want to ask God about 2,000 years SOON, too! LOL.
BTW, there is PLENTY of Scriptural support for the Pre-Trib position. I hope to get it posted within a week or 2.
The “evil days” are here folks and have been ever since Jesus ascended back to His Father in Heaven. What do you all think a quarter of a million people being killed in one year just in natural disasters is but astoundingly evil tribulation? Wars and rumors of wars? Nations rising against nation and kingdom agains kingdom? What were all the world wars and other numerous wars we see today and have seen in which MILLIONS of human beings have been killed other than tribulation? What was the Holocaust but tribulation with a capital “T”? A thousand years is as one day with the Lord and one day as a thousand years. Perhaps we have five thousand more year days to go before Christ returns - it should not matter. We need to be ready all the time and pray. Most of us would like to not have to face mortal death, but rather to be “changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye” and have our completed mortal bodies put on immortality; but whatever happens, the Lord has it all under control, perfect control. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord; He will take care of us, and He is faithful. He is in the NOW and time is no factor to Him.
So, you’re saying this is as bad as it’s going to get?
I don’t know, Jocko, if this is as bad as it’s going to get? Scripture says evil men will wax worse and worse in the latter days . . and they are . . wars, rumors of wars, famines, pestilences (what about the Black Plague and the worldwide influenza epidemic that killed millions of people worldwide and only stopped when it ran out of human fuel, Bangladesh type starvations of whole populations, Rwanda, Civil War all over for generations, WWI, WWII, Korean War, Vietnam War that went on forever, not to mention all the wars and rumors of wars rising in a crescendo from the time of Christ up until now, tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, volcanoes, earthquakes increasing also in a crescendo. I don’t think the Revelation of Jesus Christ (the book of Revelation) is only talking about the events of a few days that will cause some newspaper to come out and print as a headline “THIS IS THE TRIBULATION!!” . . but fear not, let him who is athirst drink freely from the fountain that is spoken of in the last chapter of Revelation.
As a curious new student of your Bible study class where do you stand on the “rapture” issue?
........Ping
I'm trying to get involved with some of these eschatology discussions. Some of the folks (on both sides) can get pretty mean spirited sometimes and it just pushes me away. I believe that whether we believe pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib, that we'll eventually get to the same eternity as long as Jesus is the basis for our salvation.
The main thing I've found in these FR eschatology discussions is self edification. I don't believe they do anything to add to the flock but it does help us to delve deeper into the word. And it the long run, that's a good thing regardless of the reason.
What about you?
I don't believe in it at all. My concern is that if people are taught they will be raptured then they will be deceived when the anti-christ makes his appearance.
I see it as the main deception that he will use to make people believe he is Christ, coming to rapture them away. He does something that "deceiveth the whole world", something that will make Christians that have loved Christ all their lives change suddenly and follow him. The Christians that I know love Christ so much that that would be unthinkable to them so it has to be done deceitfully. They will believe it is Christ because they haven't been taught what will happen.
Many family members and friends of mine believe in the rapture and I am very, very worried about it. When I have talked to some of them and showed them scripture that I feel destroys the rapture doctrine they just do not want to hear it. As a dear sister-in-law said, but you should hear my preacher. It brings to mind when Jesus told us to "take heed and follow no man".
Another sister-in-law said, "but I'm saved, so why should I worry about that?" If she follows anti-christ, even unknowingly, then who is she saved to? He will never leave us but we can leave Him. He is a jealous God and said "have no other gods before Me".
I was taught that the rapture would occur then the anti-Christ would reign and...to be honest, I don't know.
I wish more people would keep that open mind and read what the Bible tells us will happen, not what man tells us. To those that continue to believe in rapture I try to tell them that if we all disappear, as the Left Behind books tells us will happen, then there is nothing to worry about but if someone comes looking like Jesus, doing miracles like Jesus, etc., as the Bible warns he will and we are still in our flesh bodies - go the other way - it is the fake. When Jesus arrives at the 7th trump we are all changed into our spirit bodies and the anti-christ can't do that.
That's how I feel about rapture, just very concerned.
......Ping
I won't go that far. I do believe that we will be taken up...
1Theselonians 4:15-18 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
I just don't know when it's going to happen. I believe that we; (1)must admit that we are sinners, (2)believe that Jesus is the Son of God and was sent to this world to redeem us from those sins, (3)Confess that He is the Son of God, (4)and accept Him as our personal Savior for it is by Grace through Faith we are saved.
Those are the things that we must agree on. Everything else, including eschatology, we can debate, discuss, and learn from. I just wish we could do it in a way that is honoring to God and not boastful and attempting to be honoring to us.
In Christ,
Amen. It can be Wiley even though it is difficult if one believes differently than another. There are some difficult posters but there are many that are not.
1Thessalonians 4:15-18 - As you, I also believe these verses but I don't believe it means "rapture" as rapture has been taught.
I believe that the subject of those verses is found in vs. 13, and concerns those that are "asleep". Paul is telling us that as Christians we should know that as Jesus died and rose again so will He bring back those that "sleep in Jesus".
Paul then tells us in vs 15 that those which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord , shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Another definition of prevent is preceed - We shall not preceed those that have died before us as they are already with Him. In vs. 16 Paul then tells us that when Jesus arrives it is, with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: This is the last trump and there are only seven (that perfect number) and the dead are first as they are already with Him.
Then we have the verse that I believe has been completely taken out of context -
17.Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
In the clouds is a figure of speech. Paul used it another time in Heb.12:1, Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses..., as in a "cloud of locusts" - a big group. Air, as used here, doesn't mean up in the atmosphere but rather "to breathe unconciously, respire, naturally circumvent. If it is your "breath" as air, as God breathed our soul into us then it would be our spirit.
So to me the meaning of vs. 17 is: Then we which are still living when Christ returns will be caught up in a great crowd to meet the Lord in our spirit bodies and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This thought is further explained in:
1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
There are many more places where I feel scripture tells us that we will be here at that 7th trump, not gone, but as far as I know, this "1Thess 4" scipture is the one most often used to teach rapture.
If you want to discuss more on this subject I would really enjoy it. There are other places where this subject is taught if you are at all interested. I like to hear others ideas on this and other subjects as I feel there is so much for us, as children of God, to learn.
In Christ.......Ping
1Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The phrase, "shall be caught up", is translated from the word harpazō, which according to my reference means, to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
The phrase, "the clouds", is nephelē which is properly cloudiness, that is, (concretely) a cloud: - cloud.
To put this back in my terms, I must believe the Bible is literal in these cases. You know the old saying, "The Bible said it, that settles it." Otherwise, I/We would be trying to define nearly every thing that the Bible says. Now don't get me wrong. I know that symbolism, metaphors, and anthropomorphisms are in the Bible. But I also know that there are many places where the Bible is literal. I chose to believe that when the Bible says, "...we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air", that it means, "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air".
You don't sound like you're out of your "comfort zone" at all. I believe the Bible is being literal in the 1Thess.4:17 verse too. Completely literal, I just don't think it means what many are being taught it means.
It is reference to the 2nd Advent of Christ and when that happens at the 7th trump we will be literally "caught up". Everyone will as written in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53. All of us are changed. I take that literally too, whether it means it will be "in the air" or "in our spirit bodies" I guess really doesn't matter. It will happen.
My point in this is that nowhere did it say we would be flown away from earth to miss the tribulation. Perhaps those that teach rapture are taking that from a following verse, 1Thess.5:9, where it says:
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
We aren't appointed to wrath. We're His children and He loves us but He never said He would keep us from the tribulation, rather we would be able to go through it. Some of our types, or examples, are Noah, Daniel in the lion's den, the 3 Hebrew children in the firey furnace, the plagues of the Exodus, etc. We will experience it and our safe passage is His Word:
Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12.For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
If we carry the knowledge of God, His truth, His Word then we shall not be harmed during Satan's tribulation of deceit. We won't believe he is Christ and follow him.
Luke 21: tells us of that time but in vs. 18 Jesus says,"But not a hair of your head shall be lost" In the Olivet prophecies Jesus tells us what to expect in the end times and although He said, "I have foretold you all things", He never said He would take us away so we wouldn't experience the tribulation but rather told us what to expect and what to do during that time.
As I said in my earlier post, I believe that the 1Thess 4: verses are what is most often used to teach rapture. Those teachers need to go farther, to 2 Thessalonians to get the true meaning.
In the second letter of Paul to the Thessalonians, which followed not long after the first, he tried to clear up some misunderstandings his first letter caused:
2 Thess.2:1 Now, brethern, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you
2.Not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us though the day of Christ had come.
That would be 1 Thess. letter
3.Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.
Satan comes first, we will experience his tribulation before the coming of Christ. Satan is the abomination of desolation that (4)"sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Paul continues and warns us about Satan in the following verses:
9.The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders.
10.and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11.And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie.
12.that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
God sends the delusion, he allows this deception of Satan. He wrote a letter and expects us to read it and not listen to the traditions of men.
This was longer than I meant it to be but I feel very strongly about this subject. I hope you are not offended with this. Many are when rapture is discussed as they were raised with the idea. Please consider this and let me know your thoughts.
......Ping
Excellent entertainment.
Thanks.
Why do you say that? Do you believe rapture to be a true teaching? Do you believe it to be false or do you think of God's Word as a whole to be "excellent entertainment" that only kooks discuss?
Please explain your remark.
Thank you.
That's ok, this is good stuff. I feel like I can discuss this even if I disagree with you and keep all respect. I will be back to this. Gotta go right now though. Wiley
I agree that this verse refers to eternity. That we will be saved from God's wrath in the judgment, not necessarily during the tribulation. God never promised us that we would not have troubles {tribulation} but you're right, that He would lead us through it.
If we carry the knowledge of God, His truth, His Word then we shall not be harmed during Satan's tribulation of deceit. We won't believe he is Christ and follow him.
If you're right, the tribulation would be the ultimate test for us wouldn't it?
Please stay with me with this discussion. Your probes and questions force me to think and delve into the Scriptures...which is the point, huh!
In Christ
Actually, I never thought it was about wrath in eternity at all. Now that you've brought it to my attention I see that it can mean that. I also think it references wrath during the tribulation. I don't think we will experience the wrath He brings on unbelievers. He loves us and we stand on the Rock
If you're right, the tribulation would be the ultimate test for us wouldn't it?
Yes, I believe all scripture culiminates in that final test. That is what this trip on earth is all about. Who we will follow, God or Satan.
Your friend and student........Ping
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.