Posted on 09/29/2006 8:27:34 AM PDT by Buggman
I looked at the verses from a couple of different bibles. The Amplified shows it as :
8 But at that previous time, when you had not come to be acquainted with and understand and know the true God, you [Gentiles] were in bondage to gods who by their very nature could not be gods at all [gods that really did not exist].
9 Now, however, that you have come to be acquainted with and understand and know [the true] God, or rather to be understood and known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly and worthless elementary things [[c]of all religions before Christ came], whose slaves you once more want to become?
10 You observe [particular] days and months and seasons and years!
11 I am alarmed [about you], lest I have labored among and over you to no purpose and in vain.
Hopefully the Amplified is in error about Paul meaning ALL religions before Christ, as that would also include Judaism or at least the religions that were given to us by YHWH.
I think and hope that Paul is merely talking about the pagan/heathen practices and feasts.
Thanks for the reminder. Who are those 'false teachers' that Paul is talking about?
Ah, yes....Judaizer, the Catholic excuse for changing the set times and the Law [Daniel 7:25]. The Sabbath, of course, is the only commandment that deals with a specific time and the Festivals are at appointed times also. Sure wouldn't want our religion to look too Jewish....would we? The word Judaizer is not found in scripture but began circulating throughout early writings when the powers that stood wanted all semblance of Jewishness erased from liturgy.
The fact remains....the citizens of Galatia were not Jewish. They were Greco Romans and were being evangelized by Paul. Paul was sent to the Gentiles [Galatians 2:7]. Peter and the other Apostles had been sent to the Israelites [Matthew 10:5-6]. The false brethren were the same folks mentioned in Acts 15:1-2 and circumcision for Gentiles had been dealt with by James in verse 19.
Do you observe the Catholic Sabbath?
The Amplified is of course a commentary. Most modern commentators are eager to group God's holy days and their observance into this category. No surprise there. That being said, Judaism, by the time of Christ, had corrupted the true religion given by God. So some of the non-scriptural, perhaps pagan elements, of Judaism could well have been referred to.
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Lev 23:26 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying, Lev 23:27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be a holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
Lev 23:28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
Lev 23:30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.
Lev 23:31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.
According to the Karaites who do not follow the Talmud nor the Misnah only the Tanach;the following are the dates of the feasts based only the sighting of the New Moon:
Dates of Biblical Holidays
2006-2007
1st Unleavened Bread
April 14, 2006
א' חג המצות
7th Unleavened Bread
April 20, 2006
ז' חג המצות
Shavuot
June 4, 2006
חג השבועות
Yom Teruah
(Day of Shouting)
September 25, 2006
יום תרועה
Yom Kippurim (Day of Atonement)
October 4, 2006
יום הכפורים
1st Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles)
October 9, 2006
א' חג הסוכות
Shemini Atzeret (Last Great Day)
October 16, 2006
שמיני עצרת
Days of Purim
March 4-5, 2007
ימי הפורים
All of the Biblical Holy Days begin at sunset on the day before the date listed and continue for 24 hours until sunset on the following day.
b'shem Yah'shua
What is Karaism?b'shem Y'shuaKaraites preserve the original religion of the Hebrew Bible,
rejecting later innovations such as the Rabbinic Oral Law.
Every individual is required to take responsibility for interpreting the Tanach.
What translation is this?
Here's the NAS:
Gal 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
YLT:
Gal 4:9 and now, having known God--and rather being known by God--how turn ye again unto the weak and poor elements to which anew ye desire to be in servitude?
I think it was in high school where I first learned that Romans/Greeks were the ones who worshipped elements: earth, wind, fire, and water was it?
Paul was, again, preaching to Gentiles - Hellenistic Gentiles to be precise.
I believe in a replacement theology of sorts, or rather an addition theology.:
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
The Nation of Israel today only has half of the recipe, and those of you who spend your days trying to convince us not to keep God's 4th commandment only have the other half.
silverlings: An astounding statement, considering that this is just the opposite of what the book of Hebrews teaches!
Please re-read the article. Buggman's reference to the unaccepted sarifice is referring to the one at the temple on earth, not in heaven. The ribbon did not turn white because God was trying to tell the first century Jews to quit sacrificing animals. Buggman is in no way saying that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient.
Much fuss has been made in our Jewish evangelism circles regarding "replacement" theology, the idea that the church has "replaced" the Jewish people in the plan of God. Some have even accused all who think New Covenant believers are "Spiritual Israel" as being guilty of this "replacement theology", that is, of replacing the Jewish people with the church. Charges have been made that this idea of "Spiritual Israel" leads to anti-semitism.Klett expresses a reasonable version of Reformed Israelology. I can agree with most of what he has written on the subject.Ironically my first exposure to the idea of all believers being spiritually Israel came about through involvement in "Messianic Judaism"! Way back in 1975 I attended a seminar by Manny Brotman, president of the "Messianic Jewish Movement International" on "How to Share the Messiah". In the seminar notes I read: "When a Gentile asks the Messiah into his heart and life, he is accepting the Jewish Messiah, the Jewish Bible, and the Jewish blood of atonement and could be considered a proselyte to biblical Judaism and a child of Abraham by faith!" Isn't this essentially a statement of the "Spiritual Israel" idea?
NOT REPLACEMENT...EXPANSION! by Rev. Fred Klett
So we seem to be agreeing to a certain point. Obviously where we differ is the extent to which the practices of old Israel may legitimately be brought into the new Israel.
While some folks here have tried to deny there is a distinction in the Bible between moral and ceremonial law, I think this is very much a minority position. Most new covenant believers recognize this distinction. So it it not hard, for example, to recognize things like bestiality, incest, and homosexuality as all being sin simply because they are issue of the moral law, not the ceremonial. No need for them to be explicitly reiterated in the NT (although homosexuality and incest certainly are) because they are part of the eternal moral law of God, binding on all men in all ages.
Again, where we differ is on this nagging matter of the ceremonial laws and how they may or may not apply to the church as parts of religious worship.
Let me make it clear that we are not speaking about Jewish followers of Christ retaining their cultural heritage and family customs. No one is opposed to that, any more than we would oppose Italians who come to Christ continuing to enjoy uniquely Italian customs. As long as they are not forbidden in the Word of God, we are permitted as individuals to enjoy those customs and traditions. If you want to blow a horn on the new moon, go right ahead.
The problem comes when some folks try to introduce these Jewish customs and traditions into the church as normative ways of worshipping God. Then things get sticky. It must legitimately be asked, where has God called for this sort of culturally limited worship patterns in the universal church of God? Why are we not to take, for example, the book of Hebrews as teaching these patterns as being part of the old covenant that was declared "decayed and passing away"?
Some folks are insisting that the biblical pattern is for the church to observe new moons and feast days, just without the sacrifices and levitical trappings. I assume that is the reason for quoting Revelation, "who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."
In my estimation, and in my reading of the church fathers, the difficulty here is in further subdividing the ceremonial law into another two categories; those non-moral laws which expired in Jesus' day and those which did not.
Do the commandments of God which you are to keep (according to Revelation) include sacrificing animals or being careful about the way you shave or about the sort of material you have in your clothing? If not, why not? You can brush off my list of questions, but you have yet to paint a bright line for stating clearly what goes and what stays. You may think you know that in your head, but until you can articulate it from Scripture it merely remains a tradition of men. As I said earlier no one is obligated to keep your traditions.
I personally have yet to see a good argument from Scripture for this further subdivision of the ceremonial law. I would be more than happy to rearrange my views based on sound reasoning from the Bible. Right now the overall language of Galatians and Hebrews leads me to believe that all the ceremonial law was expired in the transition from old covenant to new covenant.
Then Mr. Buggman needs to rewrite his article. Let him be clear in what he is stating, for it is difficult to make heads or tails of his confusing personal theology. Maybe if he loses all the affectations it would make some sense.
Tonight at sundown is the beginning of Yom Kippur.b'shem Yah'shuaWe should seek the Face of God on this the most Holy day of the year.
And in reality Christ Himself is our true Day of Atonement. That is what the day represented, the coming of Christ to make propitiation and expiation before God because of our sin. He is our kippur, our covering. He is both the Lamb shed to atone for our sins, and the mercy seat where God comes to dwell with His people and which hides the guilt of the law from the eyes of God. He is the Great High Priest after the order of Melchizedek, most unlike the Levitical priests who could not offer perfection. "Year after year" people needed to return to have the blood of animals shed to try to take away sins. "Year after year" the high priest had to first atone for his own sins, then he could minister for the people.
But Christ is our Perfection. We no longer need to return in the futility of "year after year" ceremonies. "When He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high."
"Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."
There are really 52 "most Holy days" in the Christian calendar, one for every week. The annual sabbaths have passed away since they were but a shadow of Jesus Christ who is the "good things to come".
We no longer live in the shadows since we have been transformed into the sons of Light (John 12:36; 1 Thess. 5:5).
We look back on Christ's atoning work when we gather together with our fellow believers and celebrate the Lord's Supper. In the simplicity of bread and wine we are reminded of His broken body and shed blood of the new covenant on our behalf. And we do this continually and often until He comes again.
"But now [Christ] has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises."
The old covenant Yom Kippur, which unbelieving Judaism still tries imperfectly to recall, is merely a reminder that we participate in a better covenant. One not established with Levites and the blood of animals shed "year after year". But in the blood of Jesus Christ shed once for all time to save His people from their sins.
The old covenat could only hold out an imperfect hope of salvation since the offerings and priests were both temporal. The new covenant is a surety of salvation since it is made for us by the eternal Son of God.
Let us cast off the shadows and walk in the light of Christ's new covenant.
Please re-read the article. Buggman's reference to the unaccepted sarifice is referring to the one at the temple on earth, not in heaven.
That is correct. Silverlings doesn't take the time to read what I write before he/she posts.
The ribbon did not turn white because God was trying to tell the first century Jews to quit sacrificing animals.
Not necessarily, actually. Acts indicates that the first-century Messianic Jews, including the Apostles, saw nothing wrong with continuing to worship in the Temple, which meant participating in the daily sacrifices by assent. Moreover, Acts shows that many Jewish believers took voluntary Nazrite oaths, which meant offering specified sacrifices at the end of their terms (which Sha'ul participated in to prove that he was still following Torah).
Rather, the rejection of Yeshua as the Messiah-King by the Jewish leadership, including the majority of the priests, resulted in a corresponding rejection of their sacrifices by God. By visibly not accepting the Yom Kippur sacrifice, God was calling attention to the insufficiency of the Temple system apart from the ministry of the King-Priest Yeshua. Likewise, constantly opening the Temple doors was a call for all Israel to enter into the special closeness that is afforded to us in our Savior. Had there been national repentence and turning to the Messiah for true forgiveness of sins, I'll wager that the ribbon would have once again turned white as a symbol of Israel's acceptance--that, or the Messiah Himself would have returned to Israel post haste, wearing His white garments, as that sign.
I normally separate the issues of Torah-observance from the issues of sacrifice. Even if the specific nature of sacrifice has been forever altered so that animal sacrifices are now an abomination before God, that by no means overturns all of the "ceremonial" Torah commands. As has been pointed out many times in this thread, one can observe the specific commands for Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkot, Passover, etc. which were for all the people, not just the Levites.
I went to a Messianic Kol Nidre ("All Vows") service Sunday night. There was a lot of traditional Jewish liturgy; there was also significant modification of the liturgy to reflect New Covenant truth, such as responsive readings from the book of Hebrews. The truth that Yeshua is our High Priest, as well as the sacrifice who was slain and yet lives (like the two goats) was very much at the forefront of the service and sermon, which ended with a very Evangelical altar call for any who had not yet repented and put their trust in the Messiah of Israel. The fact that the sacrifice has been transferred in no way took away from the importance of keeping the Day of Atonement--on the contrary, it made it full.
Now, having affirmed that the only sacrifice which is necessary--indeed, the only sacrifice that can truly take away our sins--is that of Yeshua, I'll go ahead and say that I believe that there will indeed be a return of sacrifice and offering, for several reasons.
First, because sacrifice and offering was part-and-parcel of Apostolic worship, as already noted.
Second, because even after Yeshua's ultimate sacrifice, sacrifices still serve the purpose of "sanctifi[ng] to the purifying of the flesh" (Heb. 9:13) and serving as "a remembrance again made of sins every year" (10:3). There is no doubt that the Messiah's sacrifce is a superior sacrifice, which alone can "purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God" (9:14). There is also no doubt that a backhoe is a superior tool to a shovel--that doesn't make the shovel without value for certain tasks. Just as all of the sacrifices before Yeshua pointed forward to the true Sacrifice, though "it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins" (10:4), all of the sacrifices after Yeshua's great work on the Cross serve as a memorial of it.
Third, because God has affirmed that "this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year" (Lev. 16:34, speaking of the Yom Kippur sacrifice). Likewise, the priesthood of Phineas' line is given forever: "Behold, I give unto him My covenant of peace: And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel" (Num. 25:12-13). God could well have said, "Until the Messiah/Prophet like unto Moses comes," if He had intended the Levitical priesthood to be a temporary office, but He didn't. He gave the office of priest unto the sons of Aaron forever (Heb. 'olam).
This eternal Levitial priesthood is confirmed in Jeremiah 33:
For thus saith YHVH; "David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually." And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, "Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me." (vv. 17-22)Notice what the Lord is saying here: The eternality of the Levite office is directly linked to the eternality of the office of the Messiah.
Several objections might be raised to this verse: For example, why couldn't the priesthood mentioned be that of Yeshua? Because "it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood" (Heb. 7:14). Yeshua is of the order of Melchiezedek, not the order of Levi. Furthermore, while "a son to reign upon his throne" (Jer. 33:21) is constructed to indicate a singular person, all references to the Levites in this passage are in the plural.
The second objection that might be raised is that the "Levites" here refer to believers, for we are after all referred to as a kingdom of priests (cf. 1 Pt. 2:9, Rev. 5:10). However, this too falls short. Referring to the Church as a "royal priesthood" and a "kingdom of priests" refers us back to Ex. 19:6 and affirms the ingrafting of the believing remnant of Gentiles into Israel's root (again, which is to say that we are adopted, not that we replace the natural-born children). However, just as Israel was a kingdom of priests and yet only the tribe of Levi was called to the specific priestly office of the Tabernacle and later the Temple, neither does the Church's ingrafting into the Kingdom of Priests make us Levites (barring those believers who may, in fact, be descended from Phineas, of course).
Fourth, the continuance of the Levitical priesthood and service is prophesied in Scripture. In addition to the above passage, Ezekiel 40-47 describe a Temple which has never been built, in which the Levitical priesthood will minister: "'But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near to me to minister unto Me, and they shall stand before Me to offer unto Me the fat and the blood,' saith the Lord YHVH (Ezk. 44:15).
Moreover, premillennial eschatology recognizes that there will be the beginnings of a restored priesthood and a restored Temple even before the Second Coming (cf. Dan. 9:27, 11:31, 12:11). Attempts to explain away this clear reference to sacrifice in the End Times all fail for four reasons:
First, because every other time Daniel refers to the removal of the sacrifice (ibid., also 8:11-13), it is by Antiochus and/or the Antichrist, and is presented as a great evil; it is therefore inconsistant and a matter of special pleading to claim that 9:27 refers to the "ending" of animal sacrifice which alledgedly took place at the Cross.Some may ask why God would allow a rebuilt Temple before Israel as a whole accepted Yeshua the Messiah as their Lord. The answer is easy to understand: For nearly two millennia, the Jewish people have been forced to downplay the necessity of blood sacrifice in atonement for sin. With a functioning Temple in place, they will find themselves revisiting oft-ignored passages in the Tanakh (like Lev. 17:11, for example). I believe that God will use a restored Temple service to clear a path in the Israelite consciousness for the Cross.Second, every other instance in Daniel refers to the literal ending of sacrifice and offering in the Temple of God due to the military might of a hostile force. The sacrifices continued in the Temple for nearly another forty years after the Messiah's Sacrifice.
Third, because as already noted, the early Jewish believers continued worship and offering in the Temple for at least thirty years (up to Acts 21) after Yeshua's Ascension--they apparently didn't see the sacrifices as having ended as a legitimate expression of worship, provided that they were understood in their proper context.
And fourth, because there is no indication that Yeshua's ministry lasted for the requisite 3 1/2 years; Yochanan (John) mentions only three Passovers in his Gospel account, which gives us a period of less than three years (see here for a detailed chronology).
As for why there will be restored sacrifice in the Millennium and (perhaps) beyond, I would suggest that in what will otherwise be Eden restored, the sacrificies will serve to keep the heavy price of sin in everyone's mind.
There are many even in the Messianic movement who disagree with me on this matter. That's fine; it's not a major point of my theology, though I believe it is a necessary one to reconcile all of Scripture together. However, the issue of the future place, if any, of Temple sacrifice is again not one of primary importance to the issue of keeping the Torah and (for example) God's Appointed Times. The sacrifices served as a "second best" solution: "Don't sin, but if you do, do this." With Yeshua as our ultimate Sacrifice, our sole and sufficient atonement, the only means by which our sins may be truly taken away, we are free to keep the whole Torah out of love and adoration for our Lord, not out of fear of punishment.
Shalom.
You can brush off my list of questions, but you have yet to paint a bright line for stating clearly what goes and what stays. You may think you know that in your head, but until you can articulate it from Scripture it merely remains a tradition of men. As I said earlier no one is obligated to keep your traditions.
Have you read any of my posts? There is a very bright line between my posts and yours. Aside from the Barnabas thing (which I quoted to show that Sunday was a creation of men), I quote scripture and you quote men.
Here's the bright line for the record:
Exo 20:19 Then they said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, lest we die." Exo 20:20 And Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin." Exo 20:21 So the people stood at a distance, while Moses approached the thick cloud where God was. Exo 20:22 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven.
Everything before this must be considered the Commandments of God. Some consider the stuff after, but at a bare minimum, the 10 Commandments were given directly from God. No mediator.
Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. Mat 5:18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. Mat 5:19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
These least commandments. I guess it depends on what one considers "these least commandments". That does leave room for more, but Jesus specifically says there is a minimum. You'll note that the Holy Days are not in the minimum! I personally believe that once a Christian actually studies God's Word and learns what these days are, the Christian will want to keep God's Holy Days - NOT mens. At least that how it is working out with me.
As far as I am concerned, keeping the 10 Commandments AND having the testimony of Jesus Christ ought to be the goal of the converted Christian.
As far as the "ceremonial" stuff - the service where I worship had no ceremony. We all pretty much fasted and then went to church. The sermon highlighted many of the parallels with the Day of Atonement to Christ's sacrifice. The most stark parallel that I see in the Day of Atonement and Christ's Sacrifice is that those who observe the Day fast and do absolutely nothing. The entire Nation of Israel did nothing while their High Priest humbled himself and mediated between them and God. Sound familiar?
Now, having affirmed that the only sacrifice which is necessary--indeed, the only sacrifice that can truly take away our sins--is that of Yeshua, I'll go ahead and say that I believe that there will indeed be a return of sacrifice and offering, for several reasons.
A poster up the thread mentioned if the Sabbath was valid in the OT, and will be in the Millenia as well as the New Earth, then why do we get a reprieve now? Ditto to that. Either Christ offered the sacrifice "once for all" or he didn't.
So what do you do with Jer. 33, then? Not looking for an argument (this is one of those things I put in the "theoretical" column--fun to talk about, but not something that practically affects us until the Lord comes to explain it personally), just some insight into your viewpoint.
When reading this verse:
Jer 33:25 "Thus says the LORD, 'If My covenant for day and night stand not, and the fixed patterns of heaven and earth I have not established,
These came to mind:
Rev 21:25 And in the daytime (for there shall be no night there) its gates shall never be closed;
Mat 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken,
Food for thought.
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