Posted on 10/19/2006 5:44:54 PM PDT by split
FORT WORTH, Texas - After a Baptist pastor said in a chapel service at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary that he sometimes speaks in tongues when he prays, seminary trustees adopted a resolution Tuesday that states the institution will not tolerate the promotion of the practice of speaking in tongues.
The resolution: "Southwestern will not knowingly endorse in any way, advertise, or commend the conclusions of the contemporary charismatic movement including private prayer language. Neither will Southwestern knowingly employ professors or administrators who promote such practices."
Speaking in tongues is described in the Bible as a spiritual gift from God that empowers humans to speak in other languages. But many contemporary theologians teach that the practice was distinctly for first-century Christians. However, in the past century, Pentecostal and charismatic Christians have contended that speaking in tongues should be practiced in today's churches.
Patterson said he has consistently maintained a different view.
"I have opposed (speaking in tongues) for all of these years because I think it's an erroneous interpretation of the Bible," he said. "Southern Baptists traditionally have stood against what we feel like are the excesses of the charismatic movement. All we're doing is restating where we've always been."
Baptists are "the most intense advocates of religious liberty," Patterson said, defending the right of other Christians to believe in speaking in tongues. "But don't wear a Yankee uniform when you play for the Mets."
"We interpret the Scriptures in such a way that we do not see room for a private prayer language and we're saying we will not waver on that," Redmond said.
(Excerpt) Read more at kansascity.com ...
The late Father Vincent P. Micelli, S.J., in the appendix to his book "The Antichrist" (©1981), p. 279, quotes from Rousas John Rushdoony in "Power From Below," reproduced by Gary North in his book, "None Dare Call It Witchcraft, pp. 222-224:
"It (power from below) also means a greater stress on mindless religion, as witness the so-called charismatic movement, an emphasis on mindless experience as power. The charismatic who learns to babble insanely in what is no tongue at all has no answer therein to moral and intellectual problems, but he "witnesses" eloquently to others of the feeling of "power in the Spirit," power which is in essence a cultivation of what is mindless and subterranean . . . ."
Interestingly, in the appendix, Fr. Micelli quotes from some non-Catholic sources, including Dostoevsky, Solzhenitsyn, and others, also Catholic sources.
Interesting read for Catholics and non-Catholics alike. One post described what I could only regard as power coming up from below rather than from above.
I'm not the least bit concerned about my "spiritual health" either. That's a cheap shot to take when someone disagrees with you. While others may have ITCHING EARS. I don't have itching ears I prefer to believe what God states in the Bible.
I don't like seeing Paul's words being twisted to validate speaking in tongues as being discussed here. Charismatics and Pentecostals wish to believe that if you don't speak in tongues than you're not a real "Christian". That doesn't bother me at all either.
I don't blame the Baptists clergy for condemning it... there's enough heresy out there without adding this to it. The context on tongues as Paul is describing it is NOT what Pentecostals and Charismatics push. Look up the Greek for the passage.
When you have time attend a Pentecostal or Charismatic "revival" or just a meeting where they are "slain in the spirit". It will bring home my point that talk is VERY cheap.
The WRITTEN word is certainly sufficient for you too. It certainly makes sense for God, Who is unchanging to have His teachings in WRITING. I suspect this is WHY His teachings are in WRITING. If you're still not convinced, try a game of whisper down the lane and see how talk is twisted. As I mentioned to MineralMan, 1/3 of countless angels fell ... they're having a field day out there.
Charismatics and Pentecostals wish to believe that if you don't speak in tongues than you're not a real "Christian". That doesn't bother me at all either.
= = =
As written, that's at best a gross wholesale distortion of fact.
Some . . . a small minority, actually . . . tend to IMPLY that in their tones and attitudes.
One would think that gross distortions of fact would bother a Christian poster.
I'm saying over and over again that speaking in tongues is not necessary today. We have the Bible.
= = = =
Lots of people SAY LOTS of things.
Doesn't make them remotely close to the truth.
Doesn't make them remotely close to the truth.
Also doesn't make them remotely close to BIBLICAL.
"The God I know, is Perfect. He doesn't over look anything. I suppose I'll never get the answer to my question on WHY you believe speaking in tongues is legitimate. BTW, HOW do you know speaking in tongues is from GOD? HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS, let alone WHAT they are saying when they "speak in tongues"? Me thinks you have a lot of explaining to do.
"
Oh, my, nmh. From my tagline, you should already know that I don't believe in any deities at all. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the interesting phenomenon of one denomination taking from the Bible that speaking in tongues is an important thing, while others think it is not.
As for which of those early writings are in the Bible and which are not, that's a subject that could be discussed at length, but it's not the subject of this thread.
I know when the Canon of the Bible was established. That's not the point here. You say that tongues are no longer useful. Other say they are. I'm still waiting for your actual argument, based on scripture, as to why they are no longer useful.
My point, as always, is about the internal disputes between the various denominations of Christianity. That is the subject I find interesting.
What you keep avoiding over and over and over again is WHY you think tongues are necessary today when we have His WRITTEN Word for teachings, doctrines, beliefs etc..
= = = =
I wasn't aware that
THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL LEAD US INTO ALL TRUTH
had been removed from even the rubber Bibles so common hereon.
Do you think God is stupid? Did He leave things out that must be spoken in tongues that most will NOT understand?
= = =
I don't know if this is a convoluted straw dog
or
a red herring
or
a STRAW-RED-DOG-HERRING
Incredible.
- - - -
Ladies and Gentlemen, boys and girls, dogs and cats . . .
The END TIMES are here and more so looming . . .
Believers far and wide will be escaping to various safe havens; temporary locations etc . . .
Of course . . . the perspective being responded to . . . evidently trusts that such folks . . . as they are
RUNNING AND NOT GETTING WEARY . . .
will pull out their trusty KJV's and . . . hurridly scan umpteen thousand words to find out which path to take;
which fork in the forest to forsake;
which cave to trust in;
which spring to drink from;
which rock to find food under;
. . .
since, it's ALL claimed to be in THE WRITTEN WORD.
ROTFLOL;
ROTFLOLUMSAE
[Rolling On the Floor Laughing Out Loud Until My Sides Ache Excruciatingly].
Then crying about such a terminally dangerous attitude--particularly for these times.
Nor, evidently, respond thoughtfully and Biblically to any of the 10 given.
Let's go to the final authority to learn what the Holy Spirit does. Jesus instructed His disciples on the night He was betrayed in a farewell address recorded in John 16:7-14: "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I go away. Unless I go away the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to uou. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin,righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you."
According to Jesus, the Holy Spirit only tells you what Jesus has already taught. There are no new messages that the Spirit makes up on his own.
Incidentally, have you ever heard the tongues speakers pronounce this judgment against sin and sinners, or is it always praise? Jesus says nothing about the work of the Spirit being praise of Him, but rather instructing Jesus's followers in His teachings about sin and grace.
I'll try to find some. I don't see why there wouldn't be. But I'm not sure.
You know, as I was writing that I thought to myself, "what an idiot I am." Although I am sure some of those who have recorded people speaking in tongues are a honest as the day is long, the fact remains, it's not a very valid reference for the phenomena. That is, unless you've experienced it yourself. What I can tell you is this. When I was in high school I took French. It is a common second language in school, I know. I also attended a Pentacostal church camp. I witnessed people speeking in Tongues. I heard at least on of the group members speaking French, and speaking it quite fluently. I did ask that person if they know French or had ever taken a course, and they assured me they hadn't. Again, this is something you take at face value, as the person could very easily have been lying to me.
Therefore, even if I did present audio or video evidence of the phenomena, it really would be invalid as it is quite easy to be skeptical of the legitimacy.
Believe what you will. I know what I saw and heard.
Please be sure you know whether your a cynic or a skeptic.
I'm actually both. You could say I'm a sketical cynic.
Where does the Bible prohibit it for today?
What is so hard about understanding tongues? It merely means the ability to speak a foreign language.
If a person came into the assembly who knew only Latin and the services were in Greek, a translator was needed.
It is NOT the speaking of gibberish as some say and do today.
I never found he had anything very useful for my spiritual walk.
And, clearly, he was exceedingly ignorant of the authentic in the Charismatic/Pentecostal Christian walk, regardless of his hours of study.
. . . though on reflection, I think I'm somewhat mixing him up with an earlier fellow of such ilk that I read for my dissertation research. imho, they are two rather dried up and unfruitful peas in a pod.
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