Posted on 12/11/2006 6:29:15 AM PST by xzins
Then obviously we disagree over what constitutes "human nautre." In my understanding of Scripture, all men are sinners and in need of a Savior.
And in my reading of Scripture, I find no mention of Mary or anyone but Christ being assumed bodily into heaven.
Both a sinless nature and a bodily assumption into heaven are strictly reserved for Jesus Christ, one person of the holy Trinity.
I don't see anywhere in Scripture Mary entering into that Trinity.
I believe Campion's point is that you said earlier to only pray to "the Risen Christ". But now you say it's ok to pray to the Father too.
The Christ is not the Father. At least not as far as the Trinity is concerned.
Because there is a world of difference between endorsing the idea Mary remained celibate and believing in Mary's sinless nature and bodily assumption into heaven, neither of which are supported or even inferred in Scripture.
Baptism is not man's testimony or sign of what he the man has done. Baptism is God's testimony to man of what God does, when and where he pleases, to wash sinners from the filth and guilt of their sins.
so he is saying that Baptism does wash away sins, including original sin.
Very interesting in how he phrases that!
Baptism is God's testimony to man of what God does, when and where he pleases, to wash sinners from the filth and guilt of their sins.
two things:
#1 - so men who have been baptized are (at least temporarily) freed from sin, including original sin.
#2 - God "when and where he pleases" could wash sinners free from sin -- even before they were born. Agree?
Did you ever have the Holy Spirit take from your flesh and blood to conceive within your womb the Second Person of the Trinity thus becoming the "Mother of God", and then carry the "fullness of the Deity in bodily form" in your womb for nine months, and then literally give birth to God, and then raise God your son from infancy to adulthood, daily seeing and talking with God your son face to face? Try that and then let me know if you're any more blessed than you are now.
-A8
-A8
-A8
And vice versa.
I can't believe Catholics don't agree with this. I think, more likely, it's just an instance when someone thinks they can prove a point into absurdity. My Catholic friends all understand that praying to one person of the Trinity is praying to all persons of the Trinity.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one." -- John 10:25-30"Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
So you believe that the saints in heaven continue to sin, and you deny the resurrection of the dead?
And in my reading of Scripture, I find no mention of Mary or anyone but Christ being assumed bodily into heaven.
Enoch and Elijah. And Christ wasn't "assumed," but ascended under his own power.
So, then you agree with me that it's not a "Protestant position" to believe that Mary had other children, but merely the position of some Protestants?
-A8
And there's a world of difference between being born, and the idea that Jesus "passed through Mary's body as a light passes through glass" or whatever the arguments were on this thread that ultimately claimed Jesus was delivered via supernatual c-section.
Modalists, who believe that the Son is the Father is the Holy Spirit, might believe that, but Trinitarian Christians shouldn't.
Let me ask you this, because perhaps we're talking past each other.
Do you believe that Jesus and the Father are the same person?
The Lord put off these hereditary evils from her within himself all his natural life.
Mary's place in Heaven is much like any other.
Well said. That's it, in a nutshell. Granted, giving birth to the Lord is a HUGE and awesome gift.
Christ had evils within himself?
-A8
That's the whole point! If Christ did NOT have human nature (desire, temptation, the ability to do evil) then what was the POINT of sending Him here in the first place? His dying for us to take our sins would not mean anything because then He was never truley us.
Problem being that this does not mesh at all with scripture, or the early church.
If Mary is as you describe than she could not have fullfilled the prophesies which foretell of the coming of the Messiah.
Unless men save themselves.
And you highlighted only half of the important line in the link --
"Baptism is not man's testimony or sign of what he the man has done. Baptism is God's testimony to man of what God does, when and where he pleases, to wash sinners from the filth and guilt of their sin
Just as the the Old Testament circumcision did not "wash away sins" but was ordained by God as a sign of one's faith and obedience to God, likewise, baptism itself does not wash away anything. Baptism, as the statement explains, is a "testimony or sign" of what God has done -- redeemed His sheep by Christ's death and resurrection.
Here's an excellent link if you're interested...
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.