Posted on 05/26/2007 4:32:30 PM PDT by Titanites
I am a convert to the Catholic Faith from Calvinism. I loved Calvinism and owned a library full of Calvin, Luther, Warfield, Hodge, Murray, Owen, Machen, etc. as well as helped plant a local Orthodox Presbyterian Church. I knew Reformation Theology and how much hatred it generates for the Catholic Church. As a Calvinist, I could boast with the best of them. I even persecuted the Catholic Church and went after every one of them I found, beating them back with Scripture, upon Scripture, upon quotes of Luther, Calvin, etc. I found great pleasure in debating Catholics.
My one flaw was learning what the Early Church Fathers believed. A Catholic who had not fared well in a debate with me, mentioned I should read the Early Church Fathers to see just how Catholic they were. I honestly thought I would just gain more "ammo" to use in my battles.
I found Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp with my first visit to the University Library. I poured over them for months until finally I pounded the books on the table with my fists, tossed them from the fourth to the third level of the library and wept. It seemed these great martyrs for the Faith were Catholic. It had taken about 8 months of going over Clement, Augustine, Athanasius, etc. to see the Catholic Church was the Early Church. I kept coming back to Ignatius and Polycarp as I could not get them out of my mind.
Over the next two years, I read more and more on the Catholic Faith and became less and less convinced the Reformed Faith was correct. It became clear to me; it was nothing more than a novelty, spewing forth doctrines that had never been believed before. Christ promised the Holy Spirit to His Church and stated the gates of hell would not prevail against it. I thought that was a lie and for 1500 years, the Church had been without truth and the gates of hell had prevailed. It is very humbling to come to the conclusion you have been horribly wrong, even to the point of not trusting the words of our precious Lord and Saviour. Yet, I still was not ready to become a Catholic.
Then one day when I was reading the Scripture I read Paul talking about how he was the most religious Pharisee, the most upright, and you know my heart was pierced and I actually laughed about how I could claim I had been one of the best Calvinists around, but then it hit me. Was that even something to boast about? So I looked up one of the most wonderful examples of boasting the Lord mentioned. Luke 18:9-14 (Please read the Scripture as this is my paraphrase)
'Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Calvinist and the other a sinner. The Calvinist (that would be I) stood and was praying thus to himself, God, I thank thee that I am not like other people, sinners, Catholics, heretics, or even like this sinner beside me. I planted your church in this god-forsaken part of the country, I read the Scriptures and Calvin and Luther twice a week, and the rest of the week I read nothing but reformers and your Scriptures. But the sinner standing a little off to the side, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast saying, God, be merciful to me the sinner. I tell you this man went down to his house justified rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled but he who humbles himself shall be exalted."
You know who the sinner was? I turned next to Luke 5:8 because I was then looking for others who admitted they were sinners for I knew I was once the boaster but now I was the sinner. "But when Simon Peter saw that, he fell down at Jesus' feet saying, Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord." Peter then was able to go on and follow Jesus. Peter came home, this home became the Church, and he was the Rock it was built upon, and he was justified.
At that moment, it finally became clear I could not stay a Calvinist or stay in the OPC. I had plans to attend Westminster Seminary and those were discarded. I lost friends and was informed I must have never been a Christian in the first place.
As I became least, Christ became more. I decided the only place I could go was the home where the Apostle Peter went. I was accepted into the Catholic Church in Easter 2002. I have never been happier and I wish and pray this joy for all. I will never be the same after taking the Body and Blood of our Lord.
Catholics are not Arminians. We may sound like it sometimes, and we underplay predestination, because we see no conflict between the mystery: free will within predestination. But Catholicism accepts mystery, whereas the Reformed are not comfortable with that mystery. So they come up with with ways to try to eradicate and throw out free will. When you reject mystery and fall to one side or the other within apparent paradox, you become a heretic.
We don’t believe in double predestination, but we are not Arminians.
The crux of the issue is our relationship with God, and how it is established. There are really only two religions in the world, and they each reflect a means of establishing that relationship: the religion of human achievement and the religion of divine accomplishment. I have chosen the latter. How about you?
Look in the mirror.
Here is the scripture for you
When he entered the house, his disciples asked him in private, “Why could we not drive it out?”
He said to them, “This kind can only come out through prayer.”
(Mark 9:28-29)
“The crux of the issue is our relationship with God, and how it is established. There are really only two religions in the world, and they each reflect a means of establishing that relationship: the religion of human achievement and the religion of divine accomplishment. I have chosen the latter. How about you?”
Let me just say that human achievement means little without God.
I kept coming back to Ignatius and Polycarp as I could not get them out of my mind.
That's funny. I'm reading these guys (what little we have of them) right now, and I'm not bowled over by their supposed resemblance to the modern Roman Catholic church.
There is NOTHING we can do to be saved. We are totally dependent upon God. Good works, charity, church-attendance...nothing will get us saved.
“There is NOTHING we can do to be saved. We are totally dependent upon God. Good works, charity, church-attendance...nothing will get us saved.”
Except depend on God’s Mercy and his Son’s sacrifice. I try to be worthy of that, and fail. Every freaking day.
There is Bad News and Good News...Bad News: none of us are worthy; Good News: Jesus is...and that is all we need!
Amen! I’m depending on that, because nothing else I can do will help.
Just looked at your “about me” page. You’ve got your work cut out for you! Good luck, and God Bless. You’re going to need both! I’m a grad student at the local college in education, and being a Christian conservative is not easy even here, in relatively conservative Oklahoma. I can imagine it in Colorado Springs. I’ve got family on the also relatively conservative Western Slope. They are always griping about how liberal the Eastern Slope is, these days.
In fairness, we also have the lunatic fringe left. New Age'rs, Wiccans, Secular Humanists, etc
Makes for a very interesting place to live...and I love it!
Except for the most immature, and uneducated person, I've never met a "Calvinist" who believed this. Calvin himself, and even the most hyper-Calvinist Puritans, studied and valued the Church Fathers, Augustine, Bernard Clairveax, Hillary of St. Vincent, etc., and never suggested Hell had prevailed before the 16th Century. Of course God worked in and through the only church organization allowed to exist before the Reformation.
Calvinism too emphasizes grace most of all...saying we are not saved by our cooperation with God's mercy, rather He does all the saving...from start to finish. If Rodney Beason was a Pharisee as an Orthodox Presbyterian, it was because he didn't know Calvin and Calvinism enough, which puts the highest priority in the Word of God, by grace alone, through faith alone by Christ alone.
For every evangelical who becomes Roman Catholic, I'd bet there are 10 Roman Catholics in evangelical churches...including the OPC.
You wrote: “For every evangelical who becomes Roman Catholic, I’d bet there are 10 Roman Catholics in evangelical churches...including the OPC.”
I think you’re right. The real difference, however, is not the number. It’s the quality. The former Catholics you have left without ever learning their faith. I have seen this first hand, and read about it many times as well. The former Protestants, on the other hand, were much more likely to know their former faith, and much more likely to suffer loss (jobs, friendships, strained family relationships, etc.) when they converted.
Our Lord lived here on earth 2000 years ago so how could any group that did not come about til centuries later be his church? So that lets out the “reformers”, the Mormons, the JWs etc..
It’s simply a matter of history. The Catholic Church built upon St Peter the Rock was here first!
So many put the cart before the horse! Instead of looking to see (through their private interpretation) what the Bible says they should look first to the Church who gave the Bible!
Christ did not give a book to be the ultimate authority He gave us a Church!
**I even persecuted the Catholic Church and went after every one of them I found, beating them back with Scripture, upon Scripture, upon quotes of Luther, Calvin, etc. I found great pleasure in debating Catholics. **
And unless people abandon this practice and repent of the sins of rejecting Christ and leading others away from him, and promise to cease in the practice of bashing his word and sacrament in the Catholic church; they will find themselves facing God at the moment they die and discover they are still headed the wrong way — to ?????
A Convert's Pilgrimage [Christopher Cuddy]
Lutheran professor of philosophy prepares to enter Catholic Church
Patty Bonds (former Baptist and sister of Dr. James White) to appear on The Journey Home - May 7
Pastor and Flock Become Catholics
The journey back - Dr. Beckwith explains his reasons for returning to the Catholic Church
Famous Homosexual Italian Author Returned to the Church Before Dying of AIDS
Dr. Francis Beckwith Returns To Full Communion With The Church
Catholic Converts - Stephen K. Ray (former Evangelical)
Catholic Converts - Malcolm Muggeridge
Catholic Converts - Richard John Neuhaus
Catholic Converts - Avery Cardinal Dulles
Catholic Converts - Israel (Eugenio) Zolli - Chief Rabbi of Rome
Catholic Converts - Robert H. Bork , American Jurist (Catholic Caucus)
Catholic Converts - Marcus Grodi
“When did you gain the power and authority to read this man’s heart and judge his soul?
In scripture.”
Ouch. The most degenerate person in the world is judged by the laws of the world and by God’s words for our ability to discern what is right and what is wrong.
The reading of another’s soul and heart is God and God’s alone.
Do you know the purpose this person was placed upon the earth? What his mission is? What stumbling blocks The Almighty Creator may have placed before him and in him before the man was in his mother’s womb?
As I said, we can judge and we can use the law and God’s words, but never never never judge another’s heart and judge his soul.
Peace to you.
I'm amazed at how often this verse is misapplied. It so often seems to be interpreted as saying that hell will be attacking the church but the church will be able to survive it. In fact, it is saying that the church will be advancing against hell and the gates of hell will not prevent them from doing so. The Body of Christ...all believers bound together by their faith in the risen Lord...continues to advance as His Kingdom expands daily.
I thought that was a lie and for 1500 years, the Church had been without truth and the gates of hell had prevailed.
As a Calvinist, I have never believed that the church had been without the truth until the time of the Reformation. Rather, just as God at times had to purify His covenant people by fire, so His Church had to endure the Reformation in order to cleanse itself of some of the false teachings. And just as God's covenant people of Israel had split during its history and then eventually exploded beyond the boundaries of a single nation, so the Church has had the same happen.
Any Reformed Protestant who believes there was no true church until the 16th century didn't pay much attention to the words of the Reformers and is likely letting their opposition to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church lead them to throw the baby out with the bath water.
God says the heart of men is deceitful, so that is not the measure the measure is Gods word.
God tells us to judge correctly because we will be held to that standard, but no where does He tell us not to judge. In fact we are told to judge other, how else would we know who to fellowship or have business dealing with or to marry? How would we know who to evangelize?
Matthew 7:1-5
1. “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
2. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3. “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
4. How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
5. You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
(A warning to judge correctly)
* 1 Corinthians 2:15 But he who is spiritual judges ~all~ things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
* 1 Corinthians 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
John 7:24
24. Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment.”
1 Corinthians 5:11-13
11. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13. God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
1 Corinthians 6:2-5
2. Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?
3. Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
1 Corinthians 10:15
15. I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say.
The test is fruit.
Scripture tells us we are to make right judgments (John 7:24
*24.* Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment.” ) How else would we know if we are unequally yoked or to flee from false teachers.
We are told “by their fruits we will know them”
The idea that God wants us to walk though life without judging where we are to be or who we are to fellowship with is just not scriptural.
Scripture tells us we are to make right judgments (John 7:24
*24.* Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment.” )
How else would we know if we are unequally yoked or to flee from false teachers.
We are told “by their fruits we will know them” .
We can not judge a mans eternity, because God may come and act on a man at any time and bring him to a saving knowledge of Christ. But I can judge the mans current spiritual condition and I am actually told to do this.
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