Posted on 02/22/2008 5:31:45 PM PST by DouglasKC
All 12 tribes were represented in the south. God even addresses the 12 tribes in the south: “Speak unto Rehoboam the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and to all Israel in Judah and Benjamin....” 2 Chronicles 11:3
The “tribe of Judah” (2 Kings 17:18, et al.) is used idiomatically for the Southern Kingdom. When encountering the tribal designations, it is important to distinguish between the territories allocated to the tribes and the people themselves.
Have you done something bad lately?
Oh no, I’m perfect. I meant for other people who haven’t attained the sinless perfection of my life.
You’re kidding aren’t you? In case you’re wondering, I am kidding. Definitely not perfect here!
Yup! He says in verse 19...."these are the horns that scattered Judah & Israel". In chapter 4 he refers to them as "Olive Trees" (Israel and Judah). The same as [Revelation 11:4][Romans 11][Jeremiah 11:16-17].
[Zechariah 8:13] And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong. He is speaking of future events.
You said that Israel had long since been lost as a political unit. During this time, after the return of Judah from Babylon, was when the books of the Kings and Chronicles were written. If you recall [II Kings 17:24] says that "Israel"....the Northern Ten Tribes, were still in Assyria. They weren't lost. Everyone knew where there were. And they were still a viable political unit as the Assyrian Empire disintegrated around 600 B.C. The Israelites of the north, taken captive around 721 B.C. had been on their own for about 100 years when these books (Kings and Chronicles) were written! Many had already begun to migrate as indicated in [Amos 9:9].
They have been referred to as "The Lost Tribes" because they were lost to history these last 2000 years. But.....everyone during the first century and before knew who they were.....and where they were. They were a very viable political unit, and as a body....lived outside the Holy Land.
You may recall my quote from Josephus. You can find it here! [Antiquities of the Jews, Book XI, Chapter 5, Paragraph 2] To reiterate....he says the ten tribes during the first century lived beyond the Euphrates....and were so numerous no one could count them. This sounds like a very viable political unit.
Two paragraphs so far.....two major errors. Israel and Judah were not restored during the silent years and Israel had not been lost as a political unit.
I am still noticing in subsequent posts by you that there is still confusion about who are the Jews and who are the rest of Israel. You seem to be lumping them all together yet so I will repeat All Jews are Israelites....not all Israelites are Jews. The Kingdom of Judah became known as Judea during the first century and you will see that the term Jew used in [Esther 2:5] means in the Hebrew: 3064. Yhuwdiy (yeh-hoo-dee')a Jehudite (i.e. Judaite or Jew), or descendant of Jehudah (i.e. Judah) In [John 4:9] it means in the Greek: 2453. Ioudaios (ee-oo-dah'-yos)as a country); Judaean, i.e. belonging to Jehudah (These two scriptures are simply the first time in both Testaments that the term "Jew" is used) There are other scriptures, of course....in the plural meaning the same thing.
In other words.....folks from the tribe of Naphtali were not Jews. Folks from the tribe of Reuben were not Jews. Folks from the tribe of Dan were not Jews. Folks from the tribe of..................you get the idea? But, folks from the tribe of Judah were Jews and also those of Benjamin and Levi who came to live with Judah.....and were not part of the Assyrian deportation. These three tribes all were known as Jews. As a side matter.....you would be hard pressed today to find "A Jew" living in Modern Day Israel who did not claim to be a descendant from one of these three tribes!
You may recall my quote from Josephus...
Uhm yeah, but that is extra biblical at best and SATANIC LIES at the most likely.
It is the utter concept of Jews being anyone but Jews that I reject in totality. For all the reasons I have presented.
There isn’t even any NEED for such a crazy theory because the Jews HAVE been regathered in the land.
THAT was the very thing that sinful man could NOT SEE HOW it would come to happen, so they INVENTED this lie about who the Jews were and are.
Now that lie has become even MORE Perverted when it begins to alter the true meaning of the REST of the Gospel.
Which of course is the REAL reason SATAN invented it and put it into the hearts of the unGodly.
Satan knew he would use it to confuse people over the MOST critical point of the 2nd coming....
The IMMINENT RETURN!
There have not been, nor are there now, ANYTHINGS which must happen to precede the return.
The Early Church Expected Christ IN THE IMMEDIATE FUTURE.
So do I.
I am not looking for ANY SIGNS or other nonsense. A wicked Generation seeks after signs.
I am looking for CHRIST.
And I am aggressively debunking anyone and anything which seeks to put something else in the way of that.
He could come within the very hour right NOW as you read this!
I see my original suspicions were correct. In a short space of time you have called me "Satanic; Crazy; Sinful; a Liar; a Pervert; UnGodly; Nonsensical and Wicked".
I have presented a very limited case to you at this point ....of my beliefs. It is apparent that you do not wish to continue as you are exhibiting intense hatred of something you know nothing of. This in itself tells me that the exercise is pointless. It seems most everything is going over your head anyway.
You can take a last shot at me......I won't respond.
[Matthew 7:1-2]
This is one of the clearest, most well reasoned summaries I’ve seen on this issue. Thanks for posting.
MM (in TX)
What a blessing to read the seven wonderful replies to you. His will be done.
Hi Douglas...I know there are different views on the return of Christ. All this pre-, post-, anil-, is too confusing for me. I simply believe that Christ will return, and that’s that. The judgment. It makes everthing rather tidy in my mind.
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Goodness! Harley! You are sounding more reasonable all the time. LOL.
I used to feel that way on first hearing of all the silly notions.
Seems to me, Scripture is moderately clear . . . The judgment seat of Christ for the Believer either happens at the moment of death or it happens at a different time. If a different time, it’s not crystal clear to me when it would be. The Great White Throne judgment appears to happen at the end of the 1,000 year millenial reign but I wouldn’t want to be dogmatic about it.
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They change their interpretation to suit current events. Not only that, for them to reject the church as the chosen people of Christ is to reject the heart of the Bible. People can make Revelation say just about anything they want.
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Not my reality, Harley.
Arguable aspects to Revelation, I hold loosely and wait and see what God confirms. Some things seem to be fairly clear.
There’s so much demonic activity on earth now. It’s increasing. We are in the midst of a horrendous spiritual warfare for the soul of our nation and for individual souls who are blinded. Prayer is the only way to break it. M
True!
And look... there they are.
Are there “some” who aren’t? Sure, always happens that way. Not all Africans are in Africa. Not all Americans are in America. Big whooop. You can’t invent doctrine when the Bible is explicit.
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Excellent post.
Thanks.
Fascinating post.
Thanks.
I appreciate your enthusiasm for the return of Christ. I'm certain both diego and I share that same enthusiasm.
However, there are a couple of errors you've made in your philosophy from a biblical viewpoint.
You said "a wicked generation seeks after signs" which implies that anyone who tries to discern the signs of the end are doing something they shouldn't. But that's not what Christ meant at all.
Mat 16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would show them a sign from heaven.
Mat 16:2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
Mat 16:3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather today: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
Mat 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah. And he left them, and departed.
The pharisee's and sadducees wanted Christ to show a sign that he was the messiah. All the signs were already there, but they couldn't see them. The only sign Jesus would give to show them he was the messiah was this:
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
So your statement doesn't match the meaning Christ attached to the same words.
As far as the signs of the times, Jesus was quite clear that we are to be diligent and to discern them. Matthew 24 is a summation of end time events. In it Christ tells us a number of signs and events to watch out for. He then says:
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
As far as deception and Christians, the biggest deception will be played on those who DO NOT know scripture. Those who do not know the signs that God revealed to his servants and rely on men, tradition, or their own human reasoning to determine the signs of the times.
At the same time, the return of Christ *could* be imminent. End time events can happen rapidly. God can slow down or speed up his prophetic timetable for his own purposes. So I don't think there's a contradiction between end time prophecies that need to be fulfilled and the imminent return of Christ.
Reading some of your posts, it's apparent you don't really understand this doctrine.
1. Up until the new covenant any blessings or promises given by God to Israel were only applicable to physical Israelites. However, everyone understands that under the new covenant gentiles have been "grafted" into Israel:
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Gentiles, before Christ, were without hope. Strangers from God's promises. Now one DOES NOT have to be a racial Israelite to partake in God's promises. Black, white, red, green, blue...it doesn't matter. All who hold to Christ are subject to God's promises.
2. There WERE physical blessings promised to Israel. When God makes promises, he WILL honor them. He cannot lie. But these physical blessings ALSO apply to racial Israelites who just by virtue of their relationship to Abraham take part in them. Some may be horrible people, but God made promises to Abraham that MUST be fulfilled.
3. Mathematics seem to dictate that there would now be a VAST number of Israelites descended from Abraham. Many many more than simply the ones who identify themselves as "Jews" today. Diego has done an admirable job of pointing out that the bible makes it very clear that there is a difference between the tribe of Judah (Jews) and the other tribes. We KNOW that these other tribes were apart from Jews in biblical times.
4. The United States, Great Britain and many other nations have, throughout most of their history, been Christian. The United States and Great Britain seem to have fulfilled many of the physical promises given by God to Israel. I find it very likely that the vast majority of people who comprise the United States are descendants of Abraham. And I'm not talking about just whites. There's been so much interbreeding that a black can be more of a physical Israelite than some white appearing person maybe. But that doesn't even really matter because as pointed out a non-Christian that is white, black, red, green or blue may be benefactors of the physical blessings, but still be strangers from the promise of eternal life which is only given through Christ.
For more information about physical promises see God's Commitment to Abraham and his Descendents
Good luck and God bless in your studies.
I have called the DOCTRINE Satantic and Lies and Perverted and unGodly. You have called this Hatred.
That is the only part you got right. For I do HATE all things evil, satanic, perverted and unGodly. God HATES it too.
As for taking things personal... hey that’s between you and God and yer own conscience... guilty or otherwise, I haven’t and won’t say.
Like Harry Truman’s famous quote... “I just givem the truth and they THINK it’s hell”.
No Doug,
That is the entire problem. There are only three people on Earth. Those not looking for anything because they don’t know anything. Those looking for SIGNS. And those looking for CHRIST.
You cannot BE in two or more camps on this one. This is WHY this False Doctrine is SOOOO BAD!!
You are telling people “Christ ain’t coming yet because X Y & Z haven’t happened yet”
And the Bible is clear on that:
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming?... II Peter 3:3-4
“And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.” (Luke 21:36)
Again Doug, that is the false claim. That is why there is the curse against claiming to be a Jew. You are NOT defacto entitiled to that Blessing. You don’t get it. You have a superior blessing or an inferior one (if you want to look at it so) but you (assuming you ARE born again of water and the spirit) have a DIFFERENT covenant and blessing. Period.
And this false doctrine teaches TWO EVILS:
#1 it says there are signs we are waiting for... BZZZZT! Wrong, there are no signs, He’s on his way RIGHT NOW GET YER AFFAIRS IN ORDER!
#2 you get to BE Jews and just in case yer a little too comfy in yer sin, hey, no worries, everyone is a Jew now anyway so relax!
That’ll send a whole LOT of folks to Hell... Maybe not YOU... maybe you get the big picture, but yer NOT helping the unsaved find Christ by telling them they are covered by the Covenant of Abraham, NOR are you helping Christians with their rewards by telling them to look for SIGNS FIRST!
I always wondered about such Bible Prophecies.
Couldn't God just amend them or make new ones at his whim and if he does, how will we know?
If a Bible Prophet comes forward Today he is deemed a nut job.
This has always worried me. How do we know God has not sent someone with New Words to live by and we just aren't listening.
I am well read Will. We read indeed and trained to deal with Cults and Evil Doctrine. Count on it.
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