Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Rome's Exorcist Gives Inside Look at Devil
ZNA ^ | April 11, 2008

Posted on 04/11/2008 4:47:05 PM PDT by NYer

ROME, APRIL 11, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Some of the mystery surrounding the devil and exorcism is being unveiled in a television and Internet report series, detailing the work of the exorcist of the Diocese of Rome.

Society of St. Paul Father Gabriele Amorth, Rome's exorcist for the past 21 years and a specialist in the figure of Mary, explained in the first edition of the series how he performs exorcisms.

"I go to one of Rome's churches, to a parish that is closed during the day," he said. "There is Mass in the morning and then the church is closed. There I perform the difficult exorcisms. I always work with seven to 10 people who help me, and use a small bed. Sometimes we need to tie people down or simply subdue them."

With Christ, the priest said, it is possible to overcome the devil: "The exorcist acts in the name of Jesus and with the strength that comes from Jesus."

Is he real?

The first question Father Amorth addressed in the report is if the devil exists: "I respond with the words of John Paul II, who was once asked this question: 'Your Holiness, I find many bishop who don't believe in the devil.' And John Paul II responded: 'One who doesn't believe in the devil doesn't believe in the Gospel.'

"The devil is an angel, and therefore, a pure spirit created good by God and who perverted himself because he rebelled against God. Therefore, he maintains all the characteristics proper of a pure spirit, such as a very large intelligence, immensely bigger than ours."

The devil is pleased by the way he is generally represented -- with wings and a tail, horns, as a bat, etc. -- because these images make him seem ridiculous and help people to believe that he does not exist, the exorcist reported.

Medical or spiritual

Father Amorth suggested that diabolic problems be separated from psychiatric ones; and to do so an exorcist is needed in every diocese to help in discernment.

"Normally when a person experiences these conflicts and problems, the first thing he does is see a doctor and psychiatrist," he said. "It is very difficult to distinguish the devil's action from a psychological problem. The person goes to a psychiatrist and after years of therapy obtains no result.

"Then he begins to suspect that the problem is not a natural one and goes to a conjurer from whom he obtains even greater harm. This is what normally happens. At this point, it is possible that someone more experienced in these matters suggests an exorcist."

Our Lady

The exorcist confirmed that Satan's great foe is the Virgin Mary.

He explained: "On one occasion an exorcist friend of mine asked the devil what most hurts him about Our Lady, what most annoys him. He responded, 'That she is the purest of all creatures and that I am the filthiest; that she is the most obedient of all creatures and that I am the most rebellious; that she is the one who committed no sin and thus always conquers me.'"

Father Amorth affirmed that on some occasions, God forces the Prince of Lies to tell the truth, however, the devil's main struggle is to make man fall into sin.

"To lead man towards evil is to make him fall into sin; this is the devil's preferred activity and we are all subject to it from our birth until our death."

According to Father Amorth, Mary is a key figure in the fight against the devil's tricks, especially since she herself was tempted: "Mariology is my field and I have often been asked if Mary was tempted by the devil. Definitely. When? From her birth until her death. But she always triumphed."

Parts of the weekly reports, transmitted in eight languages, can be viewed at H2oNews.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Prayer; Theology
KEYWORDS: devil; exorcism; satan

1 posted on 04/11/2008 4:47:05 PM PDT by NYer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 04/11/2008 4:48:00 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Truly a fascinating piece.


3 posted on 04/11/2008 5:09:28 PM PDT by festus (Fred Thompson '08)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer

My Dear Wormwood,

I have learned that you have allowed your patient to discover the religion threads on Free Republic. I cannot counsel you that this will be taken lightly at the head office. However, all is not lost. You must seek every opportunity to plant in you patient’s mind the notion of “sola scriptura”. Remind him that the Enemy’ church is not a universal, visible body, but rather that it is invisible and divided. Let your patient recall that the Eucharist could not be the Enemy’s actual body and blood, and how silly this would make him seem to “rational” people. Instead, remind him how much good he could do hear in our world by pursuing Millenium Goals and similar programs of social justice.

I cannot underscore how important it is for you to get about this immediately,

Demonically yours,

Screwtape


4 posted on 04/11/2008 5:10:45 PM PDT by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Huber

Is that you Clive????


5 posted on 04/11/2008 5:13:43 PM PDT by mware (mware...killer of threads.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Huber

BTW, very well done.


6 posted on 04/11/2008 5:14:11 PM PDT by mware (mware...killer of threads.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: NYer
'Your Holiness, I find many bishop who don't believe in the devil.

What is it with bishops? The road to hell is already paved with their skulls; are they now planning on making that road into a expressway?

7 posted on 04/11/2008 5:17:42 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurtureĀ™)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
I always work with seven to 10 people who help me, and use a small bed. Sometimes we need to tie people down or simply subdue them."

The guy who wrote The DaVinci Code would have a field day with this...

8 posted on 04/11/2008 5:23:40 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (can u feel the unity?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
The exorcist confirmed that Satan's great foe is the Virgin Mary.

Actually it is Jesus Christ.

9 posted on 04/11/2008 6:04:57 PM PDT by SkyPilot ("I wasn't in church during the time when the statements were made.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer; All
I just got done reading his book, An Exorcist Tells his Story.

An excerpt:

Because of the subject that I have decided to address in this book, I cannot pursue other very interesting theological questions. I will merely touch upon certain points that come up as a result of exorcisms. An exorcist with a solid theological and scriptural background, such as Father Candido, who spoke with demons for thirty-six years, is well qualified to make some assumptions on subjects such as the sin of the rebellious angels-that theologians have dismissed in the past with a "we do not know". Everything that God created follows a harmonious design; therefore, the smallest atom influences everything, and every shadow casts some darkness on everything. Theology will be unfinished and incomprehensible until it focuses on the world of the angels. A Christology that ignores Satan is crippled and will never understand the magnitude of redemption.

We will now continue with Christ, the center of the universe. Everything was created for him and in view of his Coming, in the heavens (angels) and on earth (the tangible world, man first of all). It would be wonderful to speak only of Christ, but it would not be according to his every teaching and action, and we would never be able to understand him. Scripture talks to us about the kingdom of God but also of the kingdom of Satan. It tells us about the power of God, the Creator and Lord of the universe, but also of the power of darkness. It speaks of the sons of God and of the sons of Satan. It is impossible to understand the salvific action of Christ if we ignore the destructive action of Satan.

Satan was the most perfect being created by the hands of God. His God-given authority and superiority over the other angels are recognized by all, so he thought that he had the same authority over everything that God was creating. Satan tried to understand all of creation but could not, because all the plan of creation was oriented toward Christ. Until Christ came into the world, God's plan could not be revealed in its entirety. Hence Satan's rebellion. He wanted to continue to be the absolute first, the center of creation, even if it meant opposing God's design. This is why Satan continually tries to dominate the world ("the whole world is in the power of the evil one", I Jn 5: 19). Beginning with our forefathers, he seeks to enslave men by making them obey himself and disobey God. He was successful with our forefathers, Adam and Eve, and he hoped to continue with all men with the help of "a third of the angels", who, according to the book of Revelation, followed him in rebellion against God.

God never rejects his creatures. Therefore, even though they broke with God, Satan and his angels maintain their power and rank (thrones, dominions, principalities, powers, and so on) even if they use them for evil purposes. Saint Augustine does not exaggerate when he claims that, if God gave Satan a free hand, "no man would be left alive." Since Satan cannot kill us, he tries to "make us into his followers in opposition to God, just as he is in opposition to God".

The truth of salvation is this: Jesus came "to destroy the works of the devil" (I Jn 3:8), to free man from Satan's slavery, and to establish the kingdom of God after destroying the reign of Satan. However, between the first coming of Christ and the Parousia (the second, triumphal coming of Christ as judge), the devil tries to entice as many people as possible to his side. It is a battle he wages with the desperation of one who knows he is already defeated, knowing "that his time is short" (Rev 12:12). Therefore, Paul tells us in all honesty that "we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places" (Eph 6:12).

Scripture tells us that angels and demons (I want particularly to mention Satan) are spiritual creatures but also that they are individuals gifted with intelligence, will, freedom, and initiative. Those modern theologians who identify Satan with the abstract idea of evil are completely mistaken. Theirs is true heresy; that is, it is openly in contrast with the Bible, the Fathers, and the Magisterium of the Church. The truth about Satan was never doubted in the past; therefore, there are no dogmatic definitions in this respect with the exception of the following statement of the Fourth Lateran Council: "The devil [that is, Satan] and the other demons were created good by God; but they became evil through their own fault." Whoever denies Satan also denies sin and no longer understands the actions of Christ.

Let us be clear about this: Jesus defeated Satan through his sacrifice. However, Jesus also defeated Satan before his death, through his teachings: "If it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you" (Lk 11:20). Jesus is the strongest one, who tied up Satan (Mk 3:27), despoiled him, and pillaged his kingdom, which is at an end (Mk 3:26). Jesus first gave the power to cast out demons to his apostles; then he extended the power to the seventy-two disciples, and in the end he granted it to all those who would believe in him.

The Acts of the Apostles tell us that after the descent of the Holy Spirit the apostles continued to expel demons, and all Christians have done so after them. Already, the earliest Fathers of the Church, such as Justin and Irenaeus, clearly express Christian thought about the devil and about the power to cast him out. Other Fathers, in particular Tertullian and Origen, concur. These four authors alone can refute many modern theologians, who, for all purposes, either do not believe in the devil or completely ignore him.

The Second Vatican Council powerfully reminded us of this abiding teaching of the Church: "For a monumental struggle against the powers of darkness pervades the whole history of man. The battle was joined from the very origins of the world" (Gaudium et Spes, no. 37). "Although he was made by God in a state of holiness, from the very dawn of history man abused his liberty, at the urging of personified Evil. Man set himself against God and sought to find fulfillment apart from God. Although he knew God, he did not glorify Him as God, but his senseless mind was darkened and he served the creature rather than the Creator" (no. 13). "For He sent His Son, clothed in our flesh, in order that through this Son He might snatch men from the power of darkness and of Satan" (Ad Gentes, no. 3). How can those who deny the existence and the many activities of Satan understand the achievements of Christ? How can they understand the value of the redemptive death of Christ? On the basis of Sacred Scripture, the Second Vatican Council affirms that "[Christ], by His death and resurrection, had freed us from the power of Satan" (Sacrosanctum Concilium, no. 6). And "[Christ] was crucified and rose again to break the stranglehold of personified Evil" (Gaudium et Spes, no. 2).

Satan, defeated by Christ, fights against his followers. The battle against the evil spirits "was joined from the very origins of the world, and will continue until the last day, as the Lord has attested" (no. 37). During this time, every man is on battle alert because life on earth is a trial of faithfulness to God. "We strive therefore to please the Lord in all things (cf 2 Cor 5:9). We put on the armor of God that we may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil and resist on the evil day.... For before we reign with the glorious Christ, all of us will be made manifest 'before the tribunal of Christ, so that each one may receive what he has won through the body, according to his works, whether good or evil' (2 Cor 5: 10)" (Lumen Gentium, no. 48).

Even if this battle against Satan concerns all men and all times, there is no doubt that Satan's power is felt more keenly in periods of history when the sinfulness of the community is more evident. For example, when I view the decadence of the Roman Empire, I can see the moral disintegration of that period in history. Now we are at the same level of decadence, partly as a result of the misuse of the mass media (which are not evil in themselves) and partly because of Western consumerism and materialism, which have poisoned our society.

I believe that Pope Leo XIII, in a vision that will be detailed in the appendix of this chapter [pages 37-39] received a prophetic warning concerning this demonic attack on our times. How does the devil oppose God and our Savior? By claiming for himself the adoration due to God and by mimicking Christian institutions. Therefore, he is anti-Christ and anti-Church. Satan uses the idolatry of sex, which reduces the human body to an instrument of sin, against the Incarnation of the Word who redeemed man by becoming man. Satan uses his churches, his cult, his devotees (often consecrated through a pact of blood), his adorers, the followers of his promises, to mimic the worship due to God. just as Christ gave his apostles and their followers specific powers for the good of body and soul, so Satan gives specific powers to his followers for the destruction of body and soul. We will examine these specific powers in our explanation of witchcraft.

I will mention one more item on this subject. Just as it would be wrong to deny the existence of Satan, it is also wrong to accept the prevalent opinion that there are spiritual beings that are not mentioned in the Bible. These are the invention of spiritists, of followers of the occult, of those who espouse reincarnation, or of those who believe in "wandering souls". There are no good spirits other than angels; there are no evil spirits other than demons. Two Councils of the Church (Lyons and Florence) tell us that the souls of those who die go immediately to heaven or to hell or to purgatory. The souls of the dead who are present during seances or the souls of the dead who are present in living bodies to torture them are none other than demons. God allows a soul to return to earth only in very rare, exceptional cases, but we recognize that this subject is still full of unknowns. Father La Grua attempts to explain some of his own experiences with souls who are possessed by the devil, but I must reiterate that this is a matter that requires further research, and I will address it in a different book.

Some people marvel at the ability of demons to tempt man and even to own the body (but they can never take the soul unless man freely gives it to them) through possession and oppression. We should remember what is written in Revelation (12:7, etc.): "Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they were defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world–he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.... And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman", who was "dressed like the sun", from whom Jesus was born (it is very clear that we are also talking about the Most Holy Virgin Mary). When the dragon realized that his efforts had failed, "he went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus."

During a May 24, 1987, visit to the Sanctuary of Saint Michael the Archangel, John Paul II said, "The battle against the devil, which is the principal task of Saint Michael the archangel, is still being fought today, because the devil is still alive and active in the world. The evil that surrounds us today, the disorders that plague our society, man's inconsistency and brokenness, are not only the results of original sin, but also the result of Satan's pervasive and dark action."

The last sentence is a clear reference to God's condemnation of the serpent, in Genesis (3:15): "1 will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." Is Satan already in hell? When did the battle between angels and devils take place? We cannot answer these questions unless we keep in mind that hell is more a state of mind than a place. Place and time are different concepts for spirits.

Highly recommended reading.

10 posted on 04/11/2008 6:15:48 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: markomalley
Absolutely - very powerful words indeed.

We will now continue with Christ, the center of the universe. Everything was created for him and in view of his Coming, in the heavens (angels) and on earth (the tangible world, man first of all). It would be wonderful to speak only of Christ, but it would not be according to his every teaching and action, and we would never be able to understand him. Scripture talks to us about the kingdom of God but also of the kingdom of Satan. It tells us about the power of God, the Creator and Lord of the universe, but also of the power of darkness. It speaks of the sons of God and of the sons of Satan. It is impossible to understand the salvific action of Christ if we ignore the destructive action of Satan.

11 posted on 04/11/2008 6:17:54 PM PDT by SkyPilot ("I wasn't in church during the time when the statements were made.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: mware

Sorry, not Clive. I was trying to recall C.S. Lewis’s tone from memory, but as I think of it, he probably would have closed the letter;
Your affectionate Uncle


12 posted on 04/11/2008 6:31:23 PM PDT by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Huber

>My Dear Wormwood

I have learned that you have allowed your patient to discover the religion threads on Free Republic. I cannot counsel you that this will be taken lightly at the head office. However, all is not lost. You must seek every opportunity to plant in you patient’s mind the notion of “sola scriptura”. Remind him that the Enemy’ church is not a universal, visible body, but rather that it is invisible and divided. Let your patient recall that the Eucharist could not be the Enemy’s actual body and blood, and how silly this would make him seem to “rational” people. Instead, remind him how much good he could do hear in our world by pursuing Millenium Goals and similar programs of social justice.

I cannot underscore how important it is for you to get about this immediately,

>Demonically yours,
>Screwtape

Interdepartmental Vatican memos posted on Free Republic?

Interestinger and interestinger!


13 posted on 04/11/2008 7:21:49 PM PDT by Ottofire (Psalm 18:31 For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Huber

heh heh. = D


14 posted on 04/11/2008 8:22:13 PM PDT by murphE (I refuse to choose evil, even if it is the lesser of two)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: NYer

"But she always triumphed."

15 posted on 04/11/2008 8:30:40 PM PDT by murphE (I refuse to choose evil, even if it is the lesser of two)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

An Interview With Fr Gabriele Amorth - The Church's Leading Exorcist

Interview With Fr Gabriele Amorth: An Exorcist In The Diocese Of Rome

Vatican's Chief Exorcist Repeats Condemnation Of Harry Potter Novels

Vatican Exorcist Amorth Speaks On Satan's Smoke

Pope's Exorcist Squads Will Wage War On Satan

Priests Get Lesson In Exorcism Lack Of Qualified Clergy Prompts Vatican Class

Satanic Sects In The Vatican

Exorcist Pope 'Cast Out Demons' In The Vatican [Free Republic]

Pentecostal Exorcist Bob Larson Blessed By Rome's Chief Exorcist

Potter Author Jk Rowling Equates Christians Who Avoid Potter With Islamic Fundamentalists

Vatican Exorcist Amorth Speaks On Satan's Smoke

The Vatican's Top Exorcist Sends The Devil Packing

Putting Faith To The Test (Satan Unmasked)

Devil Especially Hates Prayers In Latin, Says A Priest Known As 'Romes Exorcist'

Hitler And Stalin Were Possessed By The Devil, Says Vatican Exorcist

Hitler And Stalin Possessed By Devil - Pope Pius XII Tried Exorcism of Hitler

Downside Legacy: End Times Prophecies & Current Events [Free Republic]

Split Opens In Church Between Believers In Psychology & Those Who See Demons

Pope Takes Fight To Satan With Third Exorcism

Canada Opens First “Hogwarts” Witchcraft School

Harry Potter And The Paganization Of Children's Culture

First Day Of School For Aspiring Vatican Exorcists

Satan In The Public Square Part I

Rome's Chief Exorcist Warns Parents Against Harry Potter

A Time For Harry Potter

Exorcist On Satan Not Having Last Word - Interview With Father Jose Antonio Fortea

What The Devil? Prince Of Darkness Is Misunderstood, Says UCLA Professor

 


16 posted on 04/11/2008 8:49:49 PM PDT by Coleus (Abortion and Physician-assisted Murder (aka-Euthanasia), Don't Democrats just kill ya?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
and a specialist in the figure of Mary
17 posted on 04/11/2008 8:51:04 PM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
The exorcist confirmed that Satan's great foe is the Virgin Mary
18 posted on 04/11/2008 8:51:48 PM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Books Written by Fr. Gabriele Amorth

19 posted on 04/11/2008 9:09:36 PM PDT by Coleus (Abortion and Physician-assisted Murder (aka-Euthanasia), Don't Democrats just kill ya?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: SkyPilot

I seem to discern a Protestant tendency to demote Our Lord to creaturehood. Mary is a creature, like us. Jesus is human, like us, but no creature. The devil aims to disorder the world. There was no disorder in Mary. That is our teaching. She is as we ought to be, perfectly obedient to His will, perfectly true to her nature. Jesus was true to his human nature but also to his divine nature. Mary is no more divine than we, just perfectly human as we hope to be.


20 posted on 04/11/2008 9:51:31 PM PDT by RobbyS
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS

Really good post, RobbyS.

Freegards


21 posted on 04/11/2008 10:20:01 PM PDT by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed says Keep the Faith!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Huber
LOL!

My mom once told my dad, "Bubba, you would say something good about the devil himself!"

"Well," replied my dad, "He's always on the job . . . "

22 posted on 04/11/2008 10:46:22 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: NYer

I just bought a book by this man. I also recently read an account of the exorcism that inspired the film The Exorcist, which was performed by a Father Bowdern of the Archdiocese of St. Louis in 1949 (although the demonic activity began in Maryland, in a suburb of Washington DC, where the victim lived)

a VERY scary subject. Not always easy to read


23 posted on 04/12/2008 1:20:25 AM PDT by ChurtleDawg (voting only encourages them)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Huber

I am a great CS Lewis fan, and I must say, you captured his tone perfectly. Wonderful!


24 posted on 04/12/2008 4:09:22 AM PDT by BlackVeil
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS; BibChr
I seem to discern a Protestant tendency to demote Our Lord to creaturehood. Mary is a creature, like us. Jesus is human, like us, but no creature.

Demote Christ? You are mistaken. The text said:

The exorcist confirmed that Satan's great foe is the Virgin Mary.Mo> I replied:

Actually it is Jesus Christ.

Mary is not greater than Christ. Catholics believe that as well. I respect what the exorcist is doing, but there is no way anyone is going to tell me Satan fears Mary more than God.

25 posted on 04/12/2008 4:26:45 AM PDT by SkyPilot ("I wasn't in church during the time when the statements were made.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: markomalley
Thank you, Mark, for taking the time to post the extract from the book (which I have now placed on my list).

the disorders that plague our society, man's inconsistency and brokenness, are not only the results of original sin, but also the result of Satan's pervasive and dark action

To get a real sense of this, step away from the news for a week or so and then pick up a newspaper. The longer one abstains, the greater the shock.

26 posted on 04/12/2008 5:13:17 AM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: markomalley
Is Satan already in hell?

Nope...

When did the battle between angels and devils take place?

It hasn't taken place yet...

We cannot answer these questions unless we keep in mind that hell is more a state of mind than a place.

Then there's no need of a bodily resurrection...Then Jesus isn't really in Heaven...It doesn't exist...It's a state of mind...

Place and time are different concepts for spirits

We cannot answer these questions unless we keep in mind that hell is more a state of mind than a place.

Obviously you don't believe Heaven and Hell are real so you claim that qualifies you to be able to answer those questions...So let's hear it...

27 posted on 04/12/2008 7:25:51 AM PDT by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: markomalley
Is Satan already in hell?

Nope...

When did the battle between angels and devils take place?

It hasn't taken place yet...

We cannot answer these questions unless we keep in mind that hell is more a state of mind than a place.

Then there's no need of a bodily resurrection...Then Jesus isn't really in Heaven...It doesn't exist...It's a state of mind...

Place and time are different concepts for spirits

We cannot answer these questions unless we keep in mind that hell is more a state of mind than a place.

Obviously you don't believe Heaven and Hell are real so you claim that qualifies you to be able to answer those questions...So let's hear it...

28 posted on 04/12/2008 7:25:58 AM PDT by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Iscool; markomalley

You are getting really metaphysical here. First of all, we know that God is outside of time, so all times are the present for God. Secondly, the question of whether heaven and hell are physical spaces (not necessarily the same thing as real places) is the same line of thinking as the Medieval argument regarding the number of angels who could dance on the head of a pin. The question is whether the spiritual occupies physical space or not. This is not a question of spiritual reality or the reality of heaven or hell, but simply whether they exist in space and time.

It’s all very simple really...


29 posted on 04/12/2008 11:09:10 AM PDT by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Huber
You are getting really metaphysical here. First of all, we know that God is outside of time, so all times are the present for God.

Ha...You guys make this statement whenever you can't explain something (which is often)...

Secondly, the question of whether heaven and hell are physical spaces (not necessarily the same thing as real places) is the same line of thinking as the Medieval argument regarding the number of angels who could dance on the head of a pin.

Not even close...Jesus said he ascended to Heaven...Was that really Heaven, or heaven IN HIS MIND (or your mind)...

The question is whether the spiritual occupies physical space or not. This is not a question of spiritual reality or the reality of heaven or hell, but simply whether they exist in space and time.

Well beam me up Scotty...No, that's not the question at all...The question is 'why don't you believe in the physical resurrection'???

It doesn't matter whether it's in God's time or our time, or His space or our space, when the resurrection takes place, it will be physical and it will be real...

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Now maybe you're not real, but Jesus is real...He is physical and He is sitting down in Heaven which is a real, physical place regardless of the fact that you and your pope are mystified about time and space...

My question is why would someone talk you out of believing in a real, physical, literal Heaven???

30 posted on 04/12/2008 5:18:16 PM PDT by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: NYer

God made the universe good. But there seems no devil outside men’s minds.


31 posted on 04/12/2008 5:35:25 PM PDT by onedoug
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Ottofire

Very powerful...


32 posted on 04/12/2008 6:15:02 PM PDT by TASMANIANRED (TAZ:Untamed, Unpredictable, Uninhibited.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Iscool

That was the explanation. We do not believe that God is limited by his creation, which includes space and time.

No one said that heaven was in anyone’s “mind”, but simply whether it occupied physical space, which we cannot know. The ancients believed that heaven existed beyond the sphere which held the stars, and that hell occupied a void within the earth. Are you one of those people who believes that heaven and hell must be located in a precise spot such as a moon of Saturn or a nearby solar system or perhaps on a quasar, or do you concede that it might be on another plane altogether? The amount of real estate in heaven is beside the point, but that certainly does not imply as you suggest that heaven is simply a projection of our intellect or imagination, nor that we do not believe in the resurrection of the body. We simply say that heaven, wherever it is, is not necessarily going to be constrained by the laws of physics.


33 posted on 04/12/2008 6:16:20 PM PDT by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: SkyPilot

Genesis chapter 3. Protestant version with explanation.

14 And the Lord God said to the serpent: Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and beasts of the earth: upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. 15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

15 “She shall crush”... Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent’s head.


34 posted on 04/12/2008 6:24:14 PM PDT by TASMANIANRED (TAZ:Untamed, Unpredictable, Uninhibited.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS; SkyPilot

I believe that you imply, but didn’t state specifically, that the Devil is a creature as well. It may be that the good exorcist is merely pointing out that only God (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) is Creator, and that Mary, who is also a creature, is thus the truest foil for Satan.

Just a thought...


35 posted on 04/12/2008 6:44:28 PM PDT by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: TASMANIANRED
14 And the Lord God said to the serpent: Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and beasts of the earth: upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. 15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

15 “She shall crush”... Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent’s head.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

How can you expound on a verse when you mis-quote the verse???

36 posted on 04/12/2008 7:21:54 PM PDT by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Huber
That was the explanation. We do not believe that God is limited by his creation, which includes space and time.

It doesn't matter what you believe...What's God's word say about it??? Do you know???

No one said that heaven was in anyone’s “mind”, but simply whether it occupied physical space, which we cannot know.

More doublespeak...

markomalley said it...Your popes have said it...

The ancients believed that heaven existed beyond the sphere which held the stars, and that hell occupied a void within the earth. Are you one of those people who believes that heaven and hell must be located in a precise spot such as a moon of Saturn or a nearby solar system or perhaps on a quasar,

Of course I do...God said it so I believe it...Who talked you out of it???

The amount of real estate in heaven is beside the point, but that certainly does not imply as you suggest that heaven is simply a projection of our intellect or imagination, nor that we do not believe in the resurrection of the body.

Well, do you believe in the resurrection of the body??? If you do, what are these physical bodies going to do without a physical place to stand on??? Just float around somewhere???

We simply say that heaven, wherever it is, is not necessarily going to be constrained by the laws of physics.

And it is not necessarily not going to be either...Now there's some logic...And based on what??? Must be intellect, eh??? God created physics...God says he created Heaven, to live in...

37 posted on 04/12/2008 7:50:37 PM PDT by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Iscool

We know what is in the Bible, we know what tradition tells us, we know what we can reason. Yet God has left us with mysteries.

Tell me, how big is heaven and where is it? When we are resurrected in body and spirit, what form will our bodies take? That of our youth, out old age, or something else? If we lost a finger or limb in life, will it be reunited with us? What exactly did Jesus mean by “today” when He spoke to the second thief on the cross? Does Genesis 1 mean that heaven is under the sea, or is it surrounded by water somewhere else? Given that our bodies will be resurrected, will we need to eat in heaven or will our bodies be somehow different than in mortal life so that they will not require food? Why or why not? Please answer these questions directly, based on your particular theology, without incorporating statements about your opinion of Catholicism into your answer.


38 posted on 04/12/2008 9:30:48 PM PDT by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Huber
Does Genesis 1 mean that heaven is under the sea, or is it surrounded by water somewhere else?

Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

This is pretty simple stuff...The problem most people have with these passages is believing them...

These Scriptures say God created heaven and above this solar system, there is a great expanse of water...This body of water is referred to as the 'deep'...Below heaven, God created a big rock...He created gravity on the rock and caused all the water under heaven to gather in the low places on this rock and He called it Earth...

God's throne is on the 'face of the deep'...

Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
Job 26:8 He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.
Job 26:9 He holdeth back the face of his throne, and spreadeth his cloud upon it.
Job 26:10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.
Job 26:11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.
Job 26:12 He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud.
Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Job 38:30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.

It's a sea...It looks like a frozen sea of glass...Crystal...

Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

And neither you, nor the Hubble telescope will see up thru it because on this side, it looks like a one way mirror...

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

I haven't even scratched the surface on the location of God's abode in Heaven...But you can bet it's in the scriptures...

And the answers to the rest of your questions are in the Scriptures...Odd that neither you nor your Magisterium can (or will) find them...

39 posted on 04/13/2008 12:31:09 AM PDT by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Iscool

Thank you for a partial answer, and a good answer, as far as it went. However, you may recall that I requested your answer not include a comment on Catholicism. The point of the question to you was not to suggest that the Catholic Church or its magisterium do not have answers to these questions, but rather to understand your interpretation of scripture. Can you comment on how your theology addresses the rest of the questions? As you have already established that you disagree broadly with Catholicism, it is unnecessary for you to repeat this in every post. It would be more helpful for you to simply state your own theology without framing it in how you feel about Catholicism. Perhaps it might also be helpful, as a frame of reference, for you to provide the name of your own denomination, if it has one.


40 posted on 04/13/2008 5:27:06 AM PDT by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Huber
but rather to understand your interpretation of scripture.

I try not to interpret scripture...The Book says there is water above the heaven and water below the heaven...That's not interpretation...That's believing what you read...But you have to put the scripture together to get a complete pirture...

41 posted on 04/13/2008 7:01:08 AM PDT by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: Coleus

Great links ,thanks Coleus.


42 posted on 04/13/2008 7:22:38 AM PDT by fatima (Pray for our friend Jim founder of this forum.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: murphE
Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
43 posted on 04/13/2008 6:16:19 PM PDT by vox_freedom (John 16:2 yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you, will think that he doth a service to God)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: vox_freedom

Thanks for posting that. = D


44 posted on 04/13/2008 8:28:23 PM PDT by murphE (I refuse to choose evil, even if it is the lesser of two)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson