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Those Angry Traditionalists (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
Inside Catholic ^ | 8/13/2008 | Mark Shea

Posted on 08/13/2008 9:45:56 AM PDT by Pyro7480

...Like it or not, discourse among a great many Traditionalists is filled with anger and contempt for Catholics who do not share their... interest in traditional forms of piety.

So while I've never seen a Clown Mass, I have encountered lots of angry Trads who have compared the Paul VI rite to a Black Mass, made clear that "Novus Ordo types" are second class Catholics... and generally made their claims to be the Guardians of True Catholicism so repellent that I wouldn't touch the Faith with a barge pole if they were the True Apostles of it they claim to be. And that experience is not just mine....

In much the same way that I think Muslims need to stop whining about how people perceive Islam and focus instead on why so many people have such similar perceptions, so too I think not a few Traditionalist Catholics should focus more energy on changing whatever it is in their sub-sector of the Church that leaves so many of us with such a bad taste in our mouths.

When the outsider's principal experience of Traditionalism is of repeated and frequent encounters with mean people who are perpetually angry... he is not going to feel any obligation or interest whatsoever in "understanding the things we care about." Telling outsiders to Traditionalism that they need to overlook their experience and stop talking about what they have actually seen and heard will be about as successful as Muslim attempts to force people to not notice the less-than-lovely face that the Religion of Peace shows the world.

Is clinging to anger more important to Traditionalists than actually winning hearts and minds to their cause? If so, then their agenda is doomed and they have paradoxically abandoned the worship of God in the name of liturgical purity.

(Excerpt) Read more at insidecatholic.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Culture; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; latinmass; traditionalist
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To: Pyro7480
As with any group of people, you'll have bright points of light and some rotten apples ...

That said.

I recently attended a low Mass in the extraordinary form here in Ohio. Simple but beautiful. Afterwards, my sister and I took a turn out of doors to admire the architecture of the church, and a gentleman approached us, and welcomed us as newcomers.

"It's nice to have a break from the Novus Ordo, isn't it?" was his first remark, after we exchanged pleasantries. And the "stereotypical traditionalist" conversation ensued.

He was a very fine man, I assure you. But it was rather off-putting and put a decidedly negative spin to the experience. We don't go to the extraordinary form because we can't stand the Novus Ordo. We attend it because we find it beautiful.

I think its important to consider carefully what unites us to a group of people. Is it mutual love or disgust? I think its an important thing to keep in mind, whatever movements we're involved in.


41 posted on 08/13/2008 6:48:01 PM PDT by Lilllabettt
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To: murphE
Breaking NEWS, Mark Shea likes this:

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
Please keep your elbows off the table.

Instead of this:

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

42 posted on 08/13/2008 6:52:58 PM PDT by vox_freedom
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To: vox_freedom
There are a lot of so-called traditionalists -- personally I resent that word since those who support the Extraordinary form are Catholics not hyphenated-Catholics -- who hold resentments because of being deprived of the Latin Mass for the past thirty years. No wonder they are mistrustful and negative about American bishops, and their more liberal supporters, such as Mark Shea, who continue to berate, belittle, and deny them of our Faith's liturgical heritage.

Now we have a Pope Benedict XVI who has given his full endorsement and approval to reinstating our 1962 Latin liturgy throughout the world. Guess what? Many more Catholics are now much more happy!
Deo Gratias!

43 posted on 08/13/2008 7:03:31 PM PDT by vox_freedom
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To: netmilsmom

Be careful what you promise. I may actually be out there in the next year or two.


44 posted on 08/13/2008 7:10:22 PM PDT by dsc
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To: dsc
And if you change planes in Atlanta, let me know.

Our parish is wonderfully orthodox (the parish newsletter just published a piece about why you shouldn't hold hands during the Our Father - while cautioning people to be charitable to visitors!) and our music is extraordinary.

Our music director has a doctorate in organ performance from Juilliard, and he can play anything. And does. Example: when I heard the postlude at the Papal Mass at St. Patrick's, it sounded like a French 20th c. composer to me but I couldn't place it. I asked our music director, but he hadn't heard the end of the service. So I E-mailed the music director at St. Patrick's (take the bull by the horns! it's surprising how often it works!) and got an almost immediate reply that it was "Tu Es Petrus" by the 20th c. French organ composer Henri Mulet. Passed the word to our music director at Wednesday night choir practice, he of course knew who Mulet was and gave us a capsule biography. And guess what the postlude was on Sunday? Yep, he just knocked it out with 2 days' rehearsal, wasn't even breathing hard . . . . and it's tough - give a listen here.

We sing Gregorian chant, Renaissance and medieval polyphony (with special attention to the English Renaissance composers like Byrd, Tallis, Farrant, etc.), and the good moderns.

I was worried about leaving the Episcopalian music scene -- they may be heretics but their musical taste is impeccable and they take their church music very seriously. But I need not have worried - Our Lady and St. Cecilia looked after us!

45 posted on 08/13/2008 7:26:34 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother

Dern, I was just in Atlanta a couple of weeks ago.


46 posted on 08/13/2008 8:05:29 PM PDT by dsc
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To: Pyro7480
Some of we traditionalists are quite stridently opposed to abuses of any Catholic Mass -- most often occurring in the Novus Ordo, to be sure -- but we are not sedevacantist by any means, and clearly acknowledge that the continuing thread of legitimate Catholicism rests with the Pope and the current Church. I would never set foot in a NO myself, but did just remind a neighbor who attends the ordinary rite to send her 2nd grade daughter to religious education this years, although I abhor the manner of First Communion that will be employed. However, it is still Catholic.
47 posted on 08/13/2008 8:22:06 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurtureĀ™)
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To: vox_freedom
who hold resentments because of being deprived of the Latin Mass for the past thirty years.

...and hold greater resentment for being deprived of the faith.

48 posted on 08/13/2008 8:57:48 PM PDT by murphE (I refuse to choose evil, even if it is the lesser of two)
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To: dsc
You'll be back.

They say whether you're going to Heaven or Hell, you have to change planes in Atlanta.

49 posted on 08/14/2008 5:00:47 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: dsc
By the way, when my husband heard that organ piece, he looked nervously over his should and asked, "Where are the flying monkeys?"

It does have the same basic structure . .. .

50 posted on 08/14/2008 5:03:50 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: dsc

I’ll take you to mass! All of you! Seriously!


51 posted on 08/14/2008 5:13:09 AM PDT by netmilsmom (The Party of Darkness prefers to have the lights out. - Go Fierce 50!!!)
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To: vox_freedom
The coffee-shop carafe is what really caught my eye (other than the elbows on the Table, of course).

Look at all the folded arms and irreverent behavior all around .. . and it looks to me like a rock band up there in the back. !!!!!???????!!!!!!!

I guess High Church Episcopalians are likely to have a LOT of trouble with sloppy, irreverent celebration. I sure do.

Anglican Use Rite at O.L. of the Atonement, San Antonio TX. If there were an Anglican Use service here, I'd be a regular visitor.

52 posted on 08/14/2008 5:14:03 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: OpusatFR

Comparing them to Muslims is shameful.

&&&
And so telling of his attitude.


53 posted on 08/14/2008 7:41:11 AM PDT by Bigg Red
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To: IbJensen

The priest doesn’t merely ‘preside’ he is the representative of Christ. He faces away from the congregation and prays to God, not to the congregants.

&&&
Thank you. Thank you. That element is, for me, the most irksome among so many irritating practices.


54 posted on 08/14/2008 7:43:55 AM PDT by Bigg Red
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To: Pyro7480
I agree with you, Pyro. I've been involved in the Traditionalist movement since the TLM came to Boston under the Indult in 1990. I've seen 'em all in the past 18 years! Not to make excuses for bad behavior, but I have a few observations that generally don't get much ink:

First, the traditionalists, while growing steadily in numbers, are still a fairly small contingent among Catholics overall. They've had, in most cases, to fight with their bishops for everything that they've gotten, even the crumbs that they often have to settle for. Many, many local ordinaries have never been "generous," as the Indult urged, in supplying venues, priests, and permissions for other Sacraments to be given in the older Rite. This can lead to a certain pugnacious projection of appearance on the part of traditionalists. I don't say that that's a good thing; I am just saying that that is how human nature tends to work. Would that we were all saints bearing patiently with trials and adversity, but such is not the case. Such is often not the case among the mainstream, either, in their dealings with us. "Elitism" and smarmy condescension certainly cuts both ways!

Second, one needs to consider that, in the days of the Indult, when there was usually just one venue per diocese (among the ones granting the Indult at all, of course), the TLM at Saint So-and-So's might often attract some of the more..."colorful"... types in the diocese. This is only natural. At all times through Church history, there have always been a few unstable people in most any parish. Some of them have always manifested their instability via excessive pietism, rigorism, etc. Well, when there is only "one game in town" for people afflicted with some form of hyperpietism or whatever, reflected in a tenacious attachment to the TLM, they will naturally congregate in the one allowed venue out of proportion to the majority of more squared-away traditionalists. Here in Boston, we have always had a few folks a can or two short of a six-pack in the Traddie community. Sometimes, they say and do embarrassing things, and get press attention or diocesan attention way out of proportion to their actual numbers. At their peak, I would say the constituted no more than 15% of the Indult congregation. They're a much smaller proportion now. Certainly, there are many more than that among the sedes, but I'm not talking about them. I presume Mark Shea isn't either.

The vast majority of Traddies in the current Motu Proprio setup are quite stable, normal people, willing to get along perfectly calmly with their Novus Ordo fellow Catholics, and they aren't anywhere near the angry, ugly people Shea seems to imply are everywhere. And, again, there are more than a few Catholics in Novus Ordo parishes who are every bit as angry and ugly. They are not representative of the whole NO culture, either. Shea needs to get a better handle on both general human nature and how small populations within a larger culture largely ignorant of them, centered on (usually) one venue, tend to concentrate people with an "attitude."

As for all of the foregoing, now that the Motu Proprio is beginning to bear good fruit, and more venues are opening up for the TLM with a better "attitude" on the part of many bishops and priests (the result of a "talking-to" from Rome, perhaps, but a better, more open attitude, nonetheless), and a more mainstreaming capability is reached as overall numbers grow, we will see much of this "anger" disappear. In a couple more years, those Traddies who, up to now, have been disaffected over real and imagined slights will have either gone off the reservation to the sedes, or will have their concerns (finally) addressed and settle-in to life as the MP envisions it for them. A little respect and understanding from the majority can do wonders in fostering a little benignity among those who feel embattled!

55 posted on 08/14/2008 7:45:22 AM PDT by magisterium
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To: magisterium
Correct, and ditto, in part. Those Catholics attached to the previous liturgical traditions (including those who attend SSPX valid Masses) should receive the understanding, not-discriminatory actions, and even have the benefits of affirmative action policies that liberals are always preaching. We are, in fact, the minority as stated and deserve the compassionate support of the majority. Instead we get Shea and his ilk who condemn and are judgmental about a minority of the minority -- just as he posits about clown "masses" being in the minority. But guess what, we should condemn the travesty that so many Novus Ordo Masses have become. Plus, Bishops should obey Pope Benedict XVI just as they are always demanding of the laity and priests in their charge.
56 posted on 08/14/2008 9:44:23 AM PDT by vox_freedom
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To: netmilsmom

Thanks!


57 posted on 08/14/2008 2:15:25 PM PDT by dsc
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To: Pyro7480

I usually like Mark Shea, but this is unimpressive.

There is a direct connection between bad liturgy and bad theology.

In winking at bad liturgy and mocking those who deride it, he is, in effect, promoting contracepting Christianity, womynprysts, and the homosexual agenda within the Church. No, not directly, but he is promoting that which enabled all of those movements.


58 posted on 08/15/2008 2:52:32 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: markomalley
There is a direct connection between bad liturgy and bad theology.
In winking at bad liturgy and mocking those who deride it, he is, in effect, promoting contracepting Christianity, womynprysts, and the homosexual agenda within the Church. No, not directly, but he is promoting that which enabled all of those movements.

Maybe, just maybe, Mark Shea is revealing (in this article) some of his true inner feelings and beliefs...

59 posted on 08/15/2008 11:35:57 AM PDT by vox_freedom
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To: AnAmericanMother
Who is Mark Shea, and why is he so mad at traditional Catholics?

Take a look at the links at the site of the original article:

Crisis Magazine

Shut down operations after publishing several articles viciously attacking traditional Catholics. Now they are "internet only" because they can't get enough subscribers to pay for printed copies.

"The Morley Institute"

Discredited foundation.

"Deal Hudson"

Discredited head of discredited foundation. Wants to preach to Catholics about voting for Republicans, but has trouble keeping his hands off his under-age students.

"Why I am a Catholic Libertarian" by Thomas Woods

Answer: Because I reject the teachings of Pope Leo XIII in Rerum Novarum and other Catholic teachings which prove they are incompatible.

"Why I am a Catholic Democrat" by Mark Strickerz

Never heard of this guy before, but the title tells you all you need to know.

60 posted on 08/16/2008 12:22:30 PM PDT by Maximilian
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